Death by Dogma

[Straw Dog]

Greetings,

I've recently realized on a more profound level that I am incapable of identifying with any organized religion in the world. In the past, this bothered me because I felt like I was missing out on something important. I once thought that if I could just narrow down the right religion or religions or find the right pattern between them that reality would gain much greater coherence and meaning. I experimented with many different faiths, but always ended up feeling uncomfortably trapped. For a while, I felt that there was something wrong with me. Why can't I just settle down with a loyal and attractive belief system? Why does my heart and mind still wander? Over time, I started listening to my intuition instead and realized that the major flaws resided within the structure of organized religion itself.

There are three major dealbreakers that prevent me from ever seriously adopting a religious belief system. The first is that all religions are dogmatic. All of them prescribe a certain set of doctrines that an individual must conform their thinking to. This is a problem because it greatly restricts genuine, critical, and independent thinking.

The second dealbreaker is that most religions and many theological beliefs shift personal responsibility away from individuals. This includes giving any god or religious leaders authority over one's behavior rather than owning up to it personally. Many terrible acts of violence and bigotry are committed and justified via the shifting of responsibility.

The last major problem is that all religions create an artificial interface between the individual and reality itself. Every person has direct access to and a personal relationship with reality that is unquely their own. A religious interface just distorts and confuses this organic process. There is no need for an intermediary. It almost seems like a flight from reality.

So I see now that I can never strongly identify with any organized religion because I value critical thinking, personal responsibility, and direct experience over dogmatic thinking, shifting responsibility, and an artificial interface. Of course, this is just my honest opinion on things, but what do the lovely people of RFs think?

Are all religions dogmatic to a certain degree? Do many religious and theological beliefs shift personal responsibility? Are religions as interfaces for reality necessary or even desirable?

Thanks,

~SD

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Greetings,

I've recently realized on a more profound level that I am incapable of identifying with any organized religion in the world. In the past, this bothered me because I felt like I was missing out on something important. I once thought that if I could just narrow down the right religion or religions or find the right pattern between them then reality would gain much greater coherence and meaning. I experimented with many different faiths, but always ended up feeling uncomfortably trapped. For a while, I felt that there was something wrong with me. Why can't I just settle down with a loyal and attractive belief system? Why does my heart and mind still wander? Over time, I started listening to my intuition instead and realized that the major flaws resided within the structure of organized religion itself.

There are three major dealbreakers that prevent me from ever seriously adopting a religious belief system. The first is that all religions are dogmatic. All of them prescribe a certain set of doctrines that an individual must conform their thinking to. This is a problem because it greatly restricts genuine, critical, and independent thinking.

The second dealbreaker is that most religions and many theological beliefs shift personal responsibility away from individuals. This includes giving religious leaders or any god authority over one's behavior rather than owning up to it personally. Many terrible acts of violence and bigotry are committed and justified via the shifting of responsibility.

The last major problem is that all religions create an artificial interface between the individual and reality itself. Every person has direct access to and a personal relationship with reality that is unquely their own. A religious interface just distorts and confuses this organic process. There is no need for an intermediary.

So I see now that I can never strongly identify with any organized religion because I value critical thinking, personal responsibility, and direct experience over dogmatic thinking, shifting responsibility, and an artificial interface. Of course, this is just my honest opinion of things, but what do the lovely people of RFs think?

Are all religions dogmatic to a certain degree? Do many religious and theological beliefs shift personal responsibility? Are religions as interfaces for reality necessary or even desireable?

Thanks,

~SD

Greetings, Straw Dog.

The first mistake we tend to make, is when we judge all scriptural teachings as being 'Dogma'.

The notion of Dogma is strictly confined to the Catholic Church and has something to do with angels, heaven, hell and all that. I mean, that movie was awesome!

So, we'll leave this whole 'Dogma' thing to the Catholics and move on...

In regards to the first 'problem', organised religion is an establishment of faith and philosophy. Of course there are going to be certain guidelines that define you as belonging to one religion or another, or else it would be pretty confusing.

The amount of 'freedom' within religion, depends on you and the religion. It's the Holy Books that define each religion, and they must be followed/adhered to.

I shall discuss your other two points a bit later and give each full appraisal, but I shall get back to you on it.

 

[psychoslice]

I would never let any organization called religion imprison me, I am a free spirit, I pick and choose only that which strengthens my spirit, the rest I leave for others.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hello NobodyYouKnow,

I hope to know a little bit more about you as somebody through this exchange.

In regards to the first 'problem', organised religion is an establishment of faith and philosophy. Of course there are going to be certain guidelines that define you as belonging to one religion or another, or else it would be pretty confusing.

Defining oneself according to certain pre-established guidelines on faith and philosophy is what creates dogmatic thinking.

The amount of 'freedom' within religion, depends on you and the religion. It's the Holy Books that define each religion, and they must be followed/adhered to.

Again, you're just reinforcing my dealbreakers. The holy book becomes responsible for defining the individual's behavior and all thinking must conform.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I would never let any organization called religion imprison me, I am a free spirit, I pick and choose only that which strengthens my spirit, the rest I leave for others.

I do the same, and my Hindu path of Tantra allows me to do the same (why I follow this way).

I call myself a 'Hindu' if I really want to wear that whole 'outfit', but in the end, any religious identification is only another form of identification with ego, when God/Brahman is 'beyond' all religion.

I call myself a Hindu because I worship Maha Deva (Purusha), Maya Shakti (Prakriti) and the union of both, reconciling Dvaita within Advaita.

I call myself a Hindu because I practice Raja Yoga and understand the psychic forces and movements of chi energy within the body. I am a student of Patanjali, Swami Svatmarama and Shankaracharya, as well as a few more 'contemporary' Yoga Masters.

Do I believe in Karma or Reincarnation (like I should to actually 'be' a Hindu according to most)? Nope, I do not. I am willing to keep an 'open mind' in that I don't know what happens after we die, but nope, I cannot just blindly believe in Karma and Reincarnation, no matter if these are the main foundations of Dharma that I must believe in to be Hindu.

The same goes for Pantheism and 'Caste System' (although I will not debate that).

Instead, I bring aspects of Buddhism (Taoism and Shinto) into my beliefs, with a bit of Wiccan 'grounding'. Do I care if other Hindus care about this? Nope, not really.

In the end, one must also find comfort within a religion independent from others who are also in the same religion. Only then, can you find inner peace.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Hello NobodyYouKnow,

I hope to know a little bit more about you as somebody through this exchange.



Defining oneself according to certain pre-established guidelines on faith and philosophy is what creates dogmatic thinking.



Again, you're just reinforcing my dealbreakers. The holy book becomes responsible for defining the individual's behavior and all thinking must conform.

....and I just got in before you, anticipating your reply and your questions (refer above).

'Getting to know me' isn't going to be easy.

 

[Straw Dog]

In the end, one must also find comfort within a religion independent from others who are also in the same religion. Only then, can you find inner peace.

Or what about total independence as a way to inner peace? Why identify with an organized religion at all?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Funny, my religion has none of those issues.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Funny, my religion has none of those issues.

In regards to Duality vs Non-Duality, it does if you really go into it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In regards to Duality vs Non-Duality, it does if you really go into it.

I don't recall the OP mentioning anything about dualism.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Or what about total independence as a way to inner peace? Why identify with an organized religion at all?

You don't have to 'identify' with any religion at all, but when one worships God(s) of a certain religion, adopts practices of a certain religion, believes in the aims and ideals of a certain religion, that 'identification' soon follows, *if it hasn't already preceded it.

Religion is only God's 'Fan/Social Club'. Let's just put it that way for ease of debate.

Having said that, a lot of people identify with nature, or pets, or nothing to find 'inner peace'... whatever floats their boat.

Personally, I choose to be 'semi-religious'. lol

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Religion is only God's 'Fan/Social Club'. Let's just put it that way for ease of debate.

Except for religions that have more than one god or don't have a god at all.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I don't recall the OP mentioning anything about dualism.

All will be revealed in time.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Except for religions that have more than one god or don't have a god at all.

Well, for more than one God, it can be like a 'Rock Band theory'...I haven't worked out the 'Buddhist angle' yet though.

 

[Sees]

Organized/exoteric religion is all about relationships, community, expressions, bonding, sharing, etc. You could benefit or be it's puppet depending on specific groups, traditions, and you individually.

I'm a big fan of dogmatism and truth-claims remaining a personal matter where as with the group and family you are united under broad, shared values without tight constriction - general consensus on some beliefs and/or practices.

People could always choose to copy another's exact beliefs if they want or try to mimic them as much as possible. It doesn't need to be the standard or foundation though.

There will always be a more esoteric aspect where the people with more time, energy, desire, etc. can get into more specifics and narrow the focus.

 

[shawn001]

Greetings,

I've recently realized on a more profound level that I am incapable of identifying with any organized religion in the world. In the past, this bothered me because I felt like I was missing out on something important. I once thought that if I could just narrow down the right religion or religions or find the right pattern between them that reality would gain much greater coherence and meaning. I experimented with many different faiths, but always ended up feeling uncomfortably trapped. For a while, I felt that there was something wrong with me. Why can't I just settle down with a loyal and attractive belief system? Why does my heart and mind still wander? Over time, I started listening to my intuition instead and realized that the major flaws resided within the structure of organized religion itself.

There are three major dealbreakers that prevent me from ever seriously adopting a religious belief system. The first is that all religions are dogmatic. All of them prescribe a certain set of doctrines that an individual must conform their thinking to. This is a problem because it greatly restricts genuine, critical, and independent thinking.

The second dealbreaker is that most religions and many theological beliefs shift personal responsibility away from individuals. This includes giving any god or religious leaders authority over one's behavior rather than owning up to it personally. Many terrible acts of violence and bigotry are committed and justified via the shifting of responsibility.

The last major problem is that all religions create an artificial interface between the individual and reality itself. Every person has direct access to and a personal relationship with reality that is unquely their own. A religious interface just distorts and confuses this organic process. There is no need for an intermediary. It almost seems like a flight from reality.

So I see now that I can never strongly identify with any organized religion because I value critical thinking, personal responsibility, and direct experience over dogmatic thinking, shifting responsibility, and an artificial interface. Of course, this is just my honest opinion on things, but what do the lovely people of RFs think?

Are all religions dogmatic to a certain degree? Do many religious and theological beliefs shift personal responsibility? Are religions as interfaces for reality necessary or even desirable?

Thanks,

~SD

Why do you need to belong to any organized religion in the first place? What drives the thought?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Why do you need to belong to any organized religion in the first place? What drives the thought?

As mentioned above, in a great post by Sees, there's the community bonding, sharing experiences, helping each other within the framework of their own philosophy and being overseen by a 'divine being'...this is all known by one word - 'fellowship' okay, 'Satsangha' (in the company of Truth). Something about a 'congregation' of believers, influencing the world around them, or at the very least, influencing the surrounding environment through their harmonious vibrational frequencies.

What drives the thought? besides 'the need to be 'in' on something really huge'?

Learning more about the religion you choose to follow through others who follow it, finding friends in society with similar interests (if religion is), gaining acceptance among their peers due to their compatible belief systems?

I am semi-religious because I just need to feel that energy like a 'battery re-charge'.

 

[shawn001]

As mentioned above, in a great post by Sees, there's the community bonding, sharing experiences, helping each other within the framework of their own philosophy and being overseen by a 'divine being'...this is all known by one word - 'fellowship' okay, 'Satsangha' (in the company of Truth). Something about a 'congregation' of believers, influencing the world around them, or at the very least, influencing the surrounding environment through their harmonious vibrational frequencies.

What drives the thought? besides 'the need to be 'in' on something really huge'?

Learning more about the religion you choose to follow through others who follow it, finding friends in society with similar interests (if religion is), gaining acceptance among their peers due to their compatible belief systems?

I am semi-religious because I just need to feel that energy like a 'battery re-charge'.

"What drives the thought? besides 'the need to be 'in' on something really huge'?"

You can do that without organized religion.

"Learning more about the religion you choose to follow through others who follow it"

You could apply the same for a hobby or joining many other social groups that have nothing to do with organized religion.

"there's the community bonding, sharing experiences, helping each other within the framework of their own philosophy"

This too you can do with out organized religion. As well as "fellowship."

"gaining acceptance among their peers due to their compatible belief systems?

Again that can be done without it.

"Something about a 'congregation' of believers, influencing the world around them, or at the very least, influencing the surrounding environment through their harmonious vibrational frequencies."

I could say this starts wars sometimes.

The way I see it if there is a God, why do you need anyone else, you can pray to God on your own while looking at a sunset. It would be all about you and the entity in question. Which raises part of the question from the OP who can decide on a specific religion in the first place. I know to some religion is comforting and they can hand off some responsibilities in life totheir God, instead of too themselves. SOME organized religions can also hold you back from your full potential.

"I do benefits for all religions - I'd hate to blow the hereafter on a technicality."
Bob Hope

 

[Sees]

"What drives the thought? besides 'the need to be 'in' on something really huge'?"

You can do that without organized religion.

"Learning more about the religion you choose to follow through others who follow it"

You could apply the same for a hobby or joining many other social groups that have nothing to do with organized religion.

"there's the community bonding, sharing experiences, helping each other within the framework of their own philosophy"

This too you can do with out organized religion. As well as "fellowship."

"gaining acceptance among their peers due to their compatible belief systems?

Again that can be done without it.

"Something about a 'congregation' of believers, influencing the world around them, or at the very least, influencing the surrounding environment through their harmonious vibrational frequencies."

I could say this starts wars sometimes.

The way I see it if there is a God, why do you need anyone else, you can pray to God on your own while looking at a sunset. It would be all about you and the entity in question. Which raises part of the question from the OP who can decide on a specific religion in the first place. I know to some religion is comforting and they can hand off some responsibilities in life totheir God, instead of too themselves. SOME organized religions can also hold you back from your full potential.

"I do benefits for all religions - I'd hate to blow the hereafter on a technicality."
Bob Hope

Think of why people like to go to a big concert, festival or fair, big BBQ, a wedding, etc. It's not about needing to learn something or getting some salvation but the action itself taking place. Why celebrate alone?

 

[shawn001]

Think of why people like to go to a big concert, festival or fair, big BBQ, a wedding, etc. It's not about needing to learn something or getting some salvation but the action itself taking place. Why celebrate alone?

But, I can do all those things and have which basically boil down to being social without organized religion.

"Why celebrate alone"?


I could say, are you alone when its just you and God?

“You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note.”

"In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep."
Albert Einstein