Death. Does it really matter when or is it just superficial?(only important to us)

[Mock Turtle]

We humans are apparently the only species in existence who can contemplate their own death. That is because we are unique in being able to imagine things in our mind as a possible outcome in the future. Animals live in the present, without a concept of what will happen down the track. They do not have imagination.....they deal with what is, not what might be.

I think this is just supposition, and will remain so until we know more about so many other species. Many animal species do plan their actions, and plan for the future as to stashing food, for example. And any animal species where there is a hierarchy - alpha males, for example - there will be planning by any trying to take the alpha position, and often involving getting as much support from others before attempting such. This I would have thought required some imagination - and planning.

 

[We Never Know]

Probably it fears going hungry, even more than it fears getting hurt in the fall.

If that cat hasn't eaten for days, it can't afford to use all that energy hunting, and come up empty.

That's what I was thinking. Its either take the risk or starve.

 

[Deeje]

I disagree. Advanced sentient beings must be able to plan for the future and consider options, how else could a predator plan and carry out an attack (a future event) ?

What precipitates an attack? Isn’t it hunger, something that triggers the need to kill prey to satisfy that hunger? For the vast majority of predatory animals, the kill is only driven by present hunger, not a plan to kill.

Other animals certainly have imagination and consider what might be. For example if I or my partner do things at the "wrong" time (certain domestic stuff) the cats suspect (correctly) that there is an impending visit to the vets and take appropriate evasive and specific action. If we saw that type of response in humans we would conclude (correctly) they have imagined a possible outcome and acted based upon what might be.

Animals can detect a change in behavior in their human owners that they can connect to past experience and an expected (or suspected) outcome. They react to that past experience, not to an anticipation of a new one. They do not have the ability to imagine a future event unless they can link it to a past one.

The word “bath” triggers a certain behavior in my dog, as does the sight of nail clippers......both come from previous experience. If the experience was remembered as unpleasant or painful, they will respond to the memory.

 

[Deeje]

I think this is just supposition, and will remain so until we know more about so many other species. Many animal species do plan their actions, and plan for the future as to stashing food, for example. And any animal species where there is a hierarchy - alpha males, for example - there will be planning by any trying to take the alpha position, and often involving getting as much support from others before attempting such. This I would have thought required some imagination - and planning.

I think you are mistaking instinct for planned activity. Animals are programmed for their instinctive behaviours. Squirrels don’t plan to store food for the winter, they just do it by instinct, triggered by a change in seasons.

Bears don’t hibernate because they plan to....it is a programmed behavior and they have the physical capacity to sustain themselves without food for the long period of winter.

Hierarchy is also an instinctive thing because it creates a wider gene pool so that inbreeding does not weaken the pack, pride or herd. The alpha position is something contested by all males of age and a position that ensures that the strongest male sires the next generation. You think they plan this? They can be mortally wounded in the contest. Nature can be brutal but survival is a serious business.

There is no planning with instinct......it’s programmed into their DNA.

 

[Secret Chief]

What precipitates an attack? Isn’t it hunger, something that triggers the need to kill prey to satisfy that hunger? For the vast majority of predatory animals, the kill is only driven by present hunger, not a plan to kill.

Surely it has a plan to kill, driven by hunger. The behaviour exhibited by non-human animals can be described as the same as by human animals.

They react to that past experience, not to an anticipation of a new one. They do not have the ability to imagine a future event unless they can link it to a past one.

The word “bath” triggers a certain behavior in my dog, as does the sight of nail clippers......both come from previous experience. If the experience was remembered as unpleasant or painful, they will respond to the memory.

How do you know these things about the inner workings of other species? You don't, you are speculating. All such "reasons" are mere speculation. The only difference is you are sure of the reasons in other humans because YOU are a human, whereas with non -human animals you are speculating across to another species. For some reason, you want to think a dog acting on past experience is different from a human acting on past experience.

 

[Secret Chief]

I think you are mistaking instinct for planned activity. Animals are programmed for their instinctive behaviours. Squirrels don’t plan to store food for the winter, they just do it by instinct, triggered by a change in seasons.

Humans can plan what they want, but every night they go to sleep.

Bears don’t hibernate because they plan to....it is a programmed behavior and they have the physical capacity to sustain themselves without food for the long period of winter.

Humans have programmed behaviours.

There is no planning with instinct......it’s programmed into their DNA.

Humans have instincts and programmed DNA too. We are just another Great Ape.

- Top 10 Human Reflexes and Natural Instincts - Listverse

If two different species are exhibiting the same behaviour (eg hunting a deer) it is not rational based on the behaviour, to ascribe the lion and the human differing reasons.

 

[Deeje]

Surely it has a plan to kill, driven by hunger. The behaviour exhibited by non-human animals can be described as the same as by human animals.

All creatures (including humans) that consume food are driven by hunger and thirst.....a forced form of survival without which we would certainly die. But wild animals are those who consume prey and are skilled hunters, never taking more than they need. Not all wild animals are hunters though....many of the world's largest and most powerful animals are herbivores. They satisfy their hunger by foraging for vegetation. Grass, as well as fruits are the food choice of many species of animals. Who or what dictates their diet then?

How do you know these things about the inner workings of other species? You don't, you are speculating. All such "reasons" are mere speculation.

Are not your own suggestions mere speculation? I guess we just go by what appeals to us, since no one knows these thing for sure. If animals could speak our language, then we would have a better idea.....wouldn't we?

The only difference is you are sure of the reasons in other humans because YOU are a human, whereas with non -human animals you are speculating across to another species. For some reason, you want to think a dog acting on past experience is different from a human acting on past experience.

There is a great gulf between humans and even the greatest of the apes....a gulf that scientists cannot begin to explain. Any other animal let loose on this earth would never wreak the kind of havoc that humans have created. Our intellect and ability to plan and create a future event through our unique faculty of imagination and ability to formulate a future outcome, is not demonstrated by any other creature on earth.

Humans have programmed behaviours.

I never said they didn't. But our activities are not all due to instinct. Instinct does not require planning....it happens as a natural consequence to internal or external stimuli for the most part. When we plan to do something, we have already considered the possible outcomes.....animals cannot do that consciously.

Humans have instincts and programmed DNA too. We are just another Great Ape.

You may believe that we are related to apes, but I am very sure that we just had the same Creator and that we are made from the same materials, using a basically tried and tested framework. Its our intellectual superiority and our moral qualities that set us apart. Part of instinctive human behavior is spirituality and worship....not seen in any other species. Who can explain that?

If two different species are exhibiting the same behaviour (eg hunting a deer) it is not rational based on the behaviour, to ascribe the lion and the human differing reasons.

That only works if you see us as just a more advanced animal.....I don't see that at all. I see humans as a distinct and separate creation, last on the scene and appointed as a caretaker and zookeeper by the Creator....unfortunately, our superiority went to our heads and we divorced ourselves from our Creator thinking that we didn't need him.

Humans have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that they are hopeless without guidance from their Creator. Look at the state of the world at present....now ask yourself how superior we can really claim to be when we have created monsters that we cannot control? I believe that the virus that is now sweeping the world is a product of human engineering and that it will continue to bankrupt the world and bring it to its knees. This is also foretold in the prophesies....that people will throw their silver and gold into the streets because it will be worthless. These are extreme times but not unexpected for those who believe in the Bible.

These are the times that the Bible foretold thousands of years ago.....everything is happening exactly as the Bible said it would....so that is why I feel so strongly about our creation as coming directly from God and for the purpose that he stated at our beginning. I believe that there is a reason for everything.

Death is not the worst thing that can happen to us....in fact for some it is a welcome relief from the horrible things that they see taking place in country after country....with no hope of it getting any better. When was the last time you heard any good news? That is what the word "gospel" means....and it offers people a lifeline out of this world system of failed human government that we believe God is about to destroy, and replace with the government we were meant to have from the beginning....God's Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44)

You may have a different take on things....

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think you are mistaking instinct for planned activity. Animals are programmed for their instinctive behaviours. Squirrels don’t plan to store food for the winter, they just do it by instinct, triggered by a change in seasons.

Bears don’t hibernate because they plan to....it is a programmed behavior and they have the physical capacity to sustain themselves without food for the long period of winter.

Hierarchy is also an instinctive thing because it creates a wider gene pool so that inbreeding does not weaken the pack, pride or herd. The alpha position is something contested by all males of age and a position that ensures that the strongest male sires the next generation. You think they plan this? They can be mortally wounded in the contest. Nature can be brutal but survival is a serious business.

There is no planning with instinct......it’s programmed into their DNA.

And I think you are mistaking human behaviour as the appropriate measure for all other life. There are just too many examples of similarities between our behaviour and theirs to wantonly say that they all act on instinct alone. As I said, we will have to wait for further evidence. We have often been rather arrogant with regards - what we see is what we get - and subsequently found out our errors.

 

[Twilight Hue]

When a fly flies away when you raise the fly swatter, does it fly away because it fears death?

I think all animals and insects have a sense of preservation. Fear? I don't think so. At least not the same type of fear we feel. I don't think a fly quakes in their boots over it or worries needlessly about next time.

 

[Deeje]

And I think you are mistaking human behaviour as the appropriate measure for all other life.

Humans are the only ones who can measure the behavior of other species and compare them....no others have the intellect to do that. Human scientists devote much time and energy to studying and analyzing animal behavior. Look at David Attenborough.....

There are just too many examples of similarities between our behaviour and theirs to wantonly say that they all act on instinct alone. As I said, we will have to wait for further evidence.

Can you provide examples of how our behavior is "similar" to theirs? And what part instinct plays as opposed to consciously planned behavior? What behavior in animals is not instinctive?

We have often been rather arrogant with regards - what we see is what we get - and subsequently found out our errors.

What we see is what we get is called science....isn't it?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Humans are the only ones who can measure the behavior of other species and compare them....no others have the intellect to do that. Human scientists devote much time and energy to studying and analyzing animal behavior. Look at David Attenborough.....

And that is what we are doing - and which takes a lot of time, particularly when we should observe them in their natural environment to get real information about them. We would hardly have advanced our knowledge of chimpanzees and other primates without the hard work of those who did do the work rather than speculating or observing them in captivity. And of course we are obtaining much information from controlled experimentation, just as we do with humans. But we are still at a very early stage to make any pronouncements as to what other species are capable of, and what necessarily causes their behaviour - in my view.

Can you provide examples of how our behavior is "similar" to theirs? And what part instinct plays as opposed to consciously planned behavior? What behavior in animals is not instinctive?

You might have to define what you see as instinctive and what is not first.

What we see is what we get is called science....isn't it?

When we have adequate and correct explanations it often is, but we know from history that we have been so wrong about so many other things. Why do you think appearance is everything in the non-human world? As I said earlier, it takes an enormous amount of time to actually observe animal behaviour in its natural setting to fully appreciate what is going on - and we are still in the early stages for many or even most species.

 

[Secret Chief]

Grass, as well as fruits are the food choice of many species of animals. Who or what dictates their diet then?

Dietary need as with all species, herbivores, carnivores and omnivores. I broadly have a plant based diet. You can speculate what dictates my diet if you like.

Are not your own suggestions mere speculation?

Inter-species speculation derived from the observation of the same behaviours, yes. Yours is speculation to align with your religious beliefs.

You may believe that we are related to apes

It is not a belief, it is a fact. Only someone wishing to hold on to a certain set of beliefs denies this fact.

- Hominidae - Wikipedia

You may have a different take on things....

Clearly.

 

[Secret Chief]

And what part instinct plays as opposed to consciously planned behavior? What behavior in animals is not instinctive?

The "nature / nurture" issue is well known in psychology, across all species, humans included. There are instinctual and learned behaviours across all species, humans included.

 

[syo]

Do you think any other species worry about dying? Or living to an old age?

Nope.

 

[Brian2]

I'm pretty sure they know they can be killed.

Some keep a watch out for predators so I'm pretty sure there is a type of sense for mortality.

You might be right.
I know the agitation and stress goes up for animals in an abattoir. Do they sense impending death? Do they see the dead animals and fear what might happen?

 

[Brian2]

I wonder if they fear injury. This snow leopards falls of the mountain with a goat but never lets go through the 400 foot tumble.

Falling off high places might be more regular than we know for a snow leopard. Hanging on might have been a fear reaction. The leopard may have been hungry.
At least I'm sure they do not like pain.
Maybe it is all anthropomorphism that ascribes human emotions to animals.
Hmmm
I think it was traumatic for our chickens to see me kill one of them one day.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You might be right.
I know the agitation and stress goes up for animals in an abattoir. Do they sense impending death? Do they see the dead animals and fear what might happen?

I dunno. I tend to think they understand death, that something isn't good, but lack that ability for contemplation of their mortality.

Just that fight or flight instinct.

 

[Brian2]

I think all animals and insects have a sense of preservation. Fear? I don't think so. At least not the same type of fear we feel. I don't think a fly quakes in their boots over it or worries needlessly about next time.

 

[Brian2]

I dunno. I tend to think they understand death, that something isn't good, but lack that ability for contemplation of their mortality.

Just that fight or flight instinct.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were the same or if they could contemplate their mortality.
I figure they knew they could die, since they had been told.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you provide examples of how our behavior is "similar" to theirs?

When humans act on their physical nature instead of their spiritual nature their behavior is similar to that of an animal.
When animals act like animals they are not blameworthy, but when humans act like 'no more than' animals, they are blameworthy, because humans have a spiritual nature and the Laws of God.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

Some Answered Questions, p. 118

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN