Secret Chief
Veteran Member
I haven't offered a plan, lol.
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Democracy going down
- Thread starter Secret Chief
- Start date
I haven't offered a plan, lol.
Samael_Khan
Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Wow. That is practically a 50-50 split. So basically they are splitting with a third of the country not agreeing with them and they dunno where another third stands.
If they were known to life about the campaign, has anybody protested against the leave? is the public holding anybody accountable for making false promises?
I did hear about David Cameron taking a gamble on Brexit and losing. He certainly took a stupid one.
PureX
Veteran Member
That's because it's not. Legalized bribery and the high cost of campaigning has made every politician beholding to the wealthy elites and corporations that are paying them the bribe money. And they pay that bribe money for the sole purpose of controlling the politicians they pay. And they are using that control to further increase their own wealth and power (at everyone else's expense).
Stopping this legalized bribery is the single most important issue of our time, as no other important issues can be reasonably addressed until we remove the strangle-hold these wealthy elites and corporate interests have on our governmental representatives. So that bemoaning "democracy" is just a foolish distraction from the real problem. Which is the wholesale corruption of our democratic representatives by people who have gained control of excessive amounts of the nation's wealth. And who are using it to gain even greater wealth, and thereby greater control over the well-being of the whole nation.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Don't worry, the straw version of you in his dead does, and it probably involves marxism.
I'm just saying this is the short-sighted nature of this line of thinking. And, you're facetious here... Why link what you don't support? I find it more likely you're looking for sympathy along ideological lines than conflict.
The idea that a small group of whiners is going to make any significant impact to the USA the way it is structured is nonsense from the start. They just aren't, and worse they're the age group with the least impact. Mills don't have money, property, or any other resources that would make someone listen to them other than to just throw a tantrum. And, we all know how well that goes -- you shock people, they get afraid, then they start looking for Uncle Sam to put his boot up your ***.
Democracy doesn't care what millenials think.
It exists independently of them.
As I pointed out in another thread about belief
that the 1950s was some golden age from which
we've degenerated, it's just angst resulting from
doomsurfing / doomscrolling. They lack a more
useful broader view of things.
Personally....I much prefer the Tumultuous
Twenties to the not-so-fabulous fifties.
It exists independently of them.
As I pointed out in another thread about belief
that the 1950s was some golden age from which
we've degenerated, it's just angst resulting from
doomsurfing / doomscrolling. They lack a more
useful broader view of things.
Personally....I much prefer the Tumultuous
Twenties to the not-so-fabulous fifties.
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Gee, maybe without the safety net that previous generations enjoyed, growing up in a post 9/11 government surveillance state, constantly tuned into the information onslaught of social media/the internet, the crushing boot that is unfettered capitalism,
maybe just maybe Millennials are frustrated at the snail’s pace of legitimate progress being represented in politics?
Well that and it’s hard not to see all the corruption these days.
You lot raised us, though. So I mean
Besides, I have heard America lament for like ever that their Electoral College puts in politicians into the president position when they literally get less of the popular votes overall. So maybe it’s not just the darned kids?
maybe just maybe Millennials are frustrated at the snail’s pace of legitimate progress being represented in politics?
Well that and it’s hard not to see all the corruption these days.
You lot raised us, though. So I mean
Besides, I have heard America lament for like ever that their Electoral College puts in politicians into the president position when they literally get less of the popular votes overall. So maybe it’s not just the darned kids?
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Erebus
Well-Known Member
The first couple of lines in that article don't really support the title:
The way they've worded this is a little odd but my reading of it is that millennials are dissatisfied with their governments rather than with democracy itself. This would certainly align with my own experience. I tend not to hear complaints that democracy doesn't work but rather that the government doesn't serve the people.
It's entirely possible that my experiences are a complete anomaly of course but I suspect The Times is being more than a little disingenuous here.
As for why people have lost faith in their governments... I'd say it's because lying has become the standard rather than the exception for UK and US politicians. You have absolutely no guarantees that the issues you voted on will be addressed in the manner your chosen party promised. Hell, you have no guarantees those issues will be addressed at all or that the winning party won't do the complete opposite of what they claimed. This is such a fundamental issue that even outright cronyism and corruption are just icing on the cake.
Gee, maybe without the safety net that previous generations enjoyed, growing up in a post 9/11 government surveillance state, constantly tuned into the information onslaught of social media/the internet, the crushing boot that is unfettered capitalism,
maybe just maybe Millennials are frustrated at the snail’s pace of legitimate progress being represented in politics?
Well that and it’s hard not to see all the corruption these days.
You lot raised us, though. So I mean
Besides, I have heard America lament for like ever that their Electoral College puts in politicians into the president position when they literally get less of the popular votes overall. So maybe it’s not just the darned kids?
Just blind leading the blind as always. They want impossible things to impossible ends. Any lasting system improves via iterations not radical shifts. Radical shifts just create a new system with new problems, probably worse than the one you already spent 200+ years streamlining.
The electoral college was specifically created to prevent a condition known as the 'tyranny of the majority' where a bunch of politically witless band-wagoners throw caution to the wind and vote for endless stupidity and thereby destroy the country. It seems to be working as intended, lol.
I respect Mils, but I know they don't have the life experience to make sound choices other than to just go with cliques and what sounds good. I was young too once and I am well aware of the deficiencies that youth adds as a dynamic to every scenario. They'll grow up too, and then we'll know their real views. Right now, they're mostly doing what their friends or someone else told them. If you can't run a family, keep a home, or hold a decent job I don't think I'll be taking advice from you. But, I might later after you do have a life and skin in the game. =D
I know. I was just playing devil’s advocate. I see the frustration in not just millennials, of which I am technically a part of. But in the BLM movement as a whole. I see the divide in American political discourse through social media and like wow.
Kids are going to be frustrated. That’s just impatient youth being impatient youth. I agree with the idea that progress needs to happen incrementally, but I too am impatient. How long do we have to wait until our boomer parents allow for actual substantive progress? We are stagnating. It’s like, omg just die already so we as a society can finally move forward. (Not literally, of course.)
Also I sincerely don’t understand the US electoral college at all. I’ve had it explained to me in like 3 different ways, so I’m lost. I’m just saying. I keep hearing how the president lost the majority popular vote and am baffled as to why a seemingly high disenfranchisement of the democratic system is even being questioned. But maybe I just got the wrong end of the stick?
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Some non-paywalled resources for context:
I'm not sure if this is anything particularly new. Every generation loses faith in the system to some degree or another. Once they get to an age where they realize the pablum they were fed in elementary school about "freedom" and "democracy" was really just an oversimplified fairy tale, then diminishing returns start to set in.
We might hear stories of people like Snowden (or others who served in government or the military) who were raised with all the patriotic ideals about America, yet once they were in a position where they could see the darker side of America, they were highly disillusioned and disappointed.
Maybe it's a consequence of being too overly protective of youth, trying to insulate and shelter them in a world of fairy tales, fiction, and pseudo-patriotic myth in their younger years. They grow up hearing things like "everyone is special," "everyone has value," "everyone is free," and "everyone gets a trophy." Once they reach adulthood and start to find out the awful truth, disappointment and disillusion are bound to set in.
My own experience was slightly different since I entered school during the Nixon years, when people were rather open about politics and it was freely discussed everywhere. I learned quite early just how corrupted, dishonest, and hypocritical our political system and ideals were. Once the 80s hit, a lot of that talk just went away - or at least it wasn't so open or public as I remembered. There was also a push to put warning labels on everything, implement parental controls, impose more restrictions in schools, strong encouragement of private schools and homeschooling, "helicopter parents," and so on.
There was a greater push to protect and shelter the youngsters of that and subsequent decades, far more than there ever was when I was a kid. The kids in my school knew that we all sucked from the very beginning. My generation started one of the biggest crime waves which lasted until the mid-1990s. We are the ones who ruined it for succeeding generations.
But we all still learn eventually.
As for democracy, we've never actually had it. We have a limited representative democracy within a republican structure outlined in the Constitution. As for the other "Anglo-Saxon" countries, they still have a monarch, so no democracy there either. At best, democracy is an illusion, the true "opiate of the masses."
But the other side of it seems to be due to a loss of faith in humanity itself. I've noticed how a lot of people in political discussions tend to refer to the general public as "sheeple" or "idiots" because they vote for corrupt, dishonest, and/or incompetent politicians. They see the public as easily led by "the media," which manipulates people's perceptions and manufactures public opinion. One commonly sees political rhetoric which is often filled with such utter scorn, contempt, and derision at whole sections of the voting public. The educational system is also often blamed for such ill-informed voters.
So, if one has the perception that most of the people in society are stupid, incompetent, or insane, then that would certainly undermine one's faith in a democratic system.
There might be ways of improving people's faith in democracy, though. One might be to actually expand democracy by making many more public offices into elective positions, such as the members of the Cabinet and the Supreme Court. Or even Speaker of the House. If that's such a powerful position, then the people should be able to choose who it should be.
Another approach might be to invite people to vote on ideas and laws, as opposed to voting for people. Give the public more direct say over the making of laws in this country, such as putting propositions and questions on the national ballot. Democracy should be more participatory.
But the people themselves need to get a bit of backbone, too. They need to stand up and demand better from their elected leaders. That's one difference between generations I've noticed. People were more activist and defiant in the 60s and 70s, whereas in more recent decades, I've noticed a conspicuous avoidance of attacking the system directly. In fact, I've noticed a much more concerted effort to defending the system which started around the early 1990s. Even recent protests seem to be carefully tailored so as to avoid any direct attacks on the system itself. It's all been mostly symbolic, but nothing of any real substance.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
IMO it is too far gone, the people way too ignorant, and the ones who have hijacked the system a long time ago occupy the high ground and have all the physical threats in their hands, and they have successfully turned the people against each other, putting wedges of division between the disparate parts of society, they have encouraged these grievances until the groups of people seethe with actual dislike and even hatred of others whom they have been taught to blame for their suffering, in error [since the ones behind all that chaos do not get identified or blamed for their machiavellian scheming]....
Thus the situation looks hopeless.
at this point it would take some miraculous transformations on the part of the people in general to have any real impact, and i have seen nothing anywhere to provide any optimism.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
thanks, the whole paywall trend really closed the roads of the internet..... talk about quiet/soft censorship..it has been very effective.
Cooky
Veteran Member
White majority countries tend to be democratic. So it's bad.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
The United States is not a democracy. It is a Democratic Republic. That is why you can have a majority vote and still lose. The system was set up to work that way from the founding of the country.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Collectively you get what you deserve.
Unfortunately some individuals have to go along for the ride.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What was an eye opener for me was the declaration that the US is now considered as an Olagarchy.
The U.S. is an Oligarchy? The Research, Explained
We are no longer a representative republic nor a democracy for that matter and not even a shot was fired.
PureX
Veteran Member
The solution is very simple. All we have to do is vote out every incumbent in every election regardless of party, unless and until we get someone in office that will ACT (not just talk) to stop the legalized bribery. When we are willing to do this, the bribery will be stopped.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
sounds simple...so did burn yer draft card and look how many people turned out to stop the war in vietnam.....
that ended badly and they still managed to pull off their war because enough dumbhashes thought it was their duty to obey....same as today...
sorry, I still think we are collectively forked.