Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[SkepticThinker]

I said spiritual issues that keep people stuck, sure there are issues other than spiritual problems but no discipline could heal a broken heart, abuse victim, drug addict. Talk therapy all you want it was all nonsense to us and didn’t work, we exhausted all those avenues and everyone gave up on us except God was there and delivered us. Psalm 107 you can find our stories.
Demons cannot be expelled by discipline, fleshly lusts can but with me it was always trading one addiction for another, no healing or help no answers with why am I here and what’s my purpose. Only God could answer those questions.

I deal with abuse victims and drug addiction all the time. You're wrong.
You have no idea at all what you are talking about. And you apparently have no idea what talk therapy is.

Show me a demon and I'll believe they exist. Until then, we're not warranted in blaming anything on demons. I'm gonna stick with the facts instead.

 

[nPeace]

The Bible is filled with claims. Not evidence.

So, when does something become evidence? Only when people are forced to accept that it was evidence before it was verified?
For example, you reported to the police, that you saw a man steal his neighbors pig, and dragged it into his house.
The police ignore you, because they claim you must have been drunk, since the neighbors claim you are always drunk.
The case is forgotten, until one day, a cleaner came across a pig tail in a bag in the garbage.
Reopening the case, some serious officers look into the evidence they had.
Some nut case babbling about a man dragging a pig into an apartment. Nuuh. Not evidence.
Pigtail found that matched the stolen pig. Oh Yes. Evidence!

Does it work that way? Keep hoping. Maybe say a pray, and see if things change, and you get what you so desperately want.
While you may accept only evidence outside the Bible, honest researchers accept both the internal, and external evidence. Atheist tend to have an opinionated bias, when it comes to anything that goes against what they believe.

The Bible is actually the primary source of evidence for Biblical archaeological discovery.
What archeological discoveries do, is support what the Bible provides. the more evidence we have, the stronger it is.
What archaeologists dig up, are actually secondary sources of evidence.
I don't have to tell you that, do I.

Siege of Jerusalem
Whereas the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle provides information about the siege of Jerusalem in 597 BCE, the only known records of the siege that culminated in Jerusalem's destruction in 587 BCE are found in the Hebrew Bible.
Archaeological evidence supports the biblical account that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 or 586 BCE. Archaeological research has shown that the Babylonians systematically destroyed the city with fire and that the city wall was pulled down.

Say you found some documents, on space travel, would you say, "Bah. That's just a claim. It's not evidence."
That's the atheistic approach you are presenting here, isn't it?
In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.” - Psalms 10:4
In other words...

Did you know: They also use annals, found on tablets as evidence.

Spoiler: Read At Your Own Risk

This ancient Babylonian tablet may contain the first evidence of trigonometry
New finding would unseat the Greeks as the creators of the discipline

This Ancient Tablet Secretly Held The Oldest Evidence Of Applied Geometry In The World
The World's Oldest Writing - Archaeology Magazine
The World's Oldest Writing
Used by scribes for more than three millennia, cuneiform writing opens a dramatic window onto ancient Mesopotamian life
In early 2016, hundreds of media outlets around the world reported that a set of recently deciphered ancient clay tablets revealed that Babylonian astronomers were more sophisticated than previously believed. The wedge-shaped writing on the tablets, known as cuneiform, demonstrated that these ancient stargazers used geometric calculations to predict the motion of Jupiter. Scholars had assumed it wasn’t until almost A.D. 1400 that these techniques were first employed—by English and French mathematicians. But here was proof that nearly 2,000 years earlier, ancient people were every bit as advanced as Renaissance-era scholars. Judging by the story’s enthusiastic reception on social media, this discovery captured the public imagination. It implicitly challenged the perception that cuneiform tablets were used merely for basic accounting, such as tallying grain, rather than for complex astronomical calculations. While most tablets were, in fact, used for mundane bookkeeping or scribal exercises, some of them bear inscriptions that offer unexpected insights into the minute details of and momentous events in the lives of ancient Mesopotamians.

I mean, what you essentially just argued here is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. Which of course, is circular reasoning.

No. What the Bible says can be trusted as reliable evidence, because it has time and again been shown to be reliable - i.e. demonstrated.
You, evidently are the one having the problem with circular reasoning.
"There is no evidence because I say so. Since I say so, there is no evidence."
Then...

So cute.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Still evidence nonetheless

Very bad evidence. The lowest form of evidence. The most unreliable of evidence.

When it comes to claims about things existing in reality, testimony are not evidence. They are CLAIMS.

"I saw a demon" is not evidence of demons.
It is a claim of having seen demons.

Again, sorry, but my standards of evidence are higher then that.

so sorry you don’t like it, go visit some places yourself, all the time you’re spending doubting, you could’ve gone to see, you seem interested so maybe just take a risk and do something different for a change.

Why? To meet more people who make claims?
You think I've never been to churches or mosques?

Will you visit my garage to meet my undetectable pet dragon?
Is my testimony of said dragon evidence of said dragon?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, when does something become evidence?

When it is independently verifiable.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Very bad evidence. The lowest form of evidence. The most unreliable of evidence.

When it comes to claims about things existing in reality, testimony are not evidence. They are CLAIMS.

"I saw a demon" is not evidence of demons.
It is a claim of having seen demons.

Again, sorry, but my standards of evidence are higher then that.



Why? To meet more people who make claims?
You think I've never been to churches or mosques?

Will you visit my garage to meet my undetectable pet dragon?
Is my testimony of said dragon evidence of said dragon?

I don’t know, you entered the discussion on the subject so why ask if you really aren’t interested or maybe you’re tormented and want help like a lot of people. Nothing to be ashamed at, really don’t care how people got trapped, we set them free no matter In Jesus Name for the glory of God.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Both psychiatry and psychology collectively tell people those kind of hallucinations are all in the head.

Yes. And the psychiatric ward is filled with examples of such.

Do you have any scientific data to back up your claim about medication?

Yes. Just about every person that was psychotic and then not psychotic after taking meds.

I doubt it….probably you‘ll give something vague like ‘medication can help’. It didn’t get rid of mine but Jesus Christ did.

It doesn't sound like it, tbh.

Science has taken pictures of them through a lens similar to the human eye. They are just an illusion. The concept of black holes was started by an English clergyman John Michell in 1784. This could only have been a work of God that went on to condition the minds of scientists to seek ‘evidence’. Pictures of an optical illusion will further convince other minds and get them set for the Tribulation, saying things like space is so massive alien life forms must be out there.

No. Einstein's equations predicted their existence.
Einstein actually thought his theories were wrong because he considered the idea of black holes ridiculous.

But then we actually discovered them in deep space, matching literally every prediction made about them, like gravitational lensing etc.

Clearly you are in serious willful ignorance denial.

Seems like everything that doesn't fit your a priori religious model of make-belief gets branded "illusion" for no other reason then it not fitting with your model of make belief.

There really is no point trying to reason with you. Clearly you don't care about your beliefs being rationally justified. All you care about instead is just believing them.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I deal with abuse victims and drug addiction all the time. You're wrong.
You have no idea at all what you are talking about. And you apparently have no idea what talk therapy is.

Show me a demon and I'll believe they exist. Until then, we're not warranted in blaming anything on demons. I'm gonna stick with the facts instead.

I know exactly what I’m talking about…and I don’t charge money, do you? You’ll have to produce evidence of your success like you’re asking me for.
How long does it take and how much money for a drug addict to be set free by your psychology? Where’s the long term data?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don’t know

I do. Like I said, "testimony" is the number one reason why people get wrongfully convicted.
What does that tell you regarding its reliability?

, you entered the discussion on the subject so why ask if you really aren’t interested

I entered the discussion because you claimed it is reliable evidence and it isn't. So I'm correcting you.
That's kind of the purpose of a discussion and debate forum.

or maybe you’re tormented and want help like a lot of people.

???

Is this an attempt at an ad hominem?

Nothing to be ashamed at, really don’t care how people got trapped, we set them free no matter In Jesus Name for the glory of God.

I guess so... it's a rather lame attempt at an ad hominem...

Oh well....

Whenever you are ready to actually discuss the matter of testimony being unreliable....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know exactly what I’m talking about…and I don’t charge money, do you and you’ll have to produce evidence of your success like your asking me for.

Isn't his testimony of being succesfull enough evidence?

Or is testimony only acceptable evidence when it agrees with your a priori beliefs?



Funny how people who want others to accept "testimony" as evidence, will never accept such as evidence themselves when it disagrees with the point they want to make.

 

[nPeace]

When it is independently verifiable.

For example, Dark Matter? There is no evidence for it?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Isn't his testimony of being succesfull enough evidence?

Or is testimony only acceptable evidence when it agrees with your a priori beliefs?



Funny how people who want others to accept "testimony" as evidence, will never accept such as evidence themselves when it disagrees with the point they want to make.

It would be enough if that’s what their standard was but seen as it’s not well then… give up the proof.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For example, Dark Matter? There is no evidence for it?

Dark matter is a place holder name for something unknown which has demonstrable manifestation.

There are gravitational forces that can't be accounted for by regular visible matter.
These gravitational forces have to come from somewhere. We don't know from where.

The term "dark matter" is used to refer to that unknown source.

We know there is a source for those gravitational forces, since we can measure those gravitational forces.
We don't know what it is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It would be enough if that’s what their standard was but seen as it’s not well then… give up the proof.

You are just confirming exactly what I said.

You don't actually think testimony is reliable.
It doesn't matter what other people think since the point is about YOUR standard of evidence, not theirs.

You have just shown that you hold double standards when it comes to "testimony".

You'll say it's acceptable evidence when it agrees with your beliefs.
You won't accept it as evidence when it doesn't.

There's a term for that btw. It's called confirmation bias.

 

[Apostle John]

And the voices tend to go away with anti-psychotic medication.

You were asked specifically for scientific data to support your claim above but talked about psychosis instead:-

Yes. Just about every person that was psychotic and then not psychotic after taking meds.

I think it’s obvious you like blathering.

 

[nPeace]

Dark matter is a place holder name for something unknown which has demonstrable manifestation.

There are gravitational forces that can't be accounted for by regular visible matter.
These gravitational forces have to come from somewhere. We don't know from where.

The term "dark matter" is used to refer to that unknown source.

We know there is a source for those gravitational forces, since we can measure those gravitational forces.
We don't know what it is.

Is that a yes. There is evidence for Dark Matter, that is independently verified?

 

[ElishaElijah]

It would be enough if that’s what their standard was but seen as it’s not well then… give up the proof.

You are just confirming exactly what I said.

You don't actually think testimony is reliable.
It doesn't matter what other people think since the point is about YOUR standard of evidence, not theirs.

You have just shown that you hold double standards when it comes to "testimony".

You'll say it's acceptable evidence when it agrees with your beliefs.
You won't accept it as evidence when it doesn't.

There's a term for that btw. It's called confirmation bias.

I do but you’re just talking to yourself now and can’t follow the thought.

 

[Apostle John]

No. Einstein's equations predicted their existence.
Einstein actually thought his theories were wrong because he considered the idea of black holes ridiculous.

But then we actually discovered them in deep space, matching literally every prediction made about them, like gravitational lensing etc.

Clearly you are in serious willful ignorance denial.

Seems like everything that doesn't fit your a priori religious model of make-belief gets branded "illusion" for no other reason then it not fitting with your model of make belief.

There really is no point trying to reason with you. Clearly you don't care about your beliefs being rationally justified. All you care about instead is just believing them.

How do you know God didn’t condition Einstein‘s mind, which is what I reasoned. It says this can happen in the Bible. Deep space is an optical illusion, you have no evidence to the contrary.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You were asked specifically for scientific data to support your claim above but talked about psychosis instead:-

Hallucinations that aren't the result of drug abuse or somatic contexts (like high fever or alike) are typically symptoms of psychotic episodes, which is a psychiatric condition which itself occurs within contexts of mental illnesses and / or psychiatric disorders as described in DSM.

As for scientific data on how anti-psychotic meds "make the voices go away", here's a double blind study for you to ignore and / or wave away

International multisite double-blind trial of the atypical antipsychotics risperidone and olanzapine in 175 elderly patients with chronic schizophrenia - PubMed

Stable elderly patients with chronic schizophrenia receiving appropriate doses of risperidone or olanzapine over an 8-week period experienced significant reductions in the severity of psychotic and extrapyramidal symptoms, with a relatively low risk of side effects.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: Stable elderly patients with chronic schizophrenia receiving appropriate doses of risperidone or olanzapine over an 8-week period experienced significant reductions in the severity of psychotic and extrapyramidal symptoms

I think it’s obvious you like blathering.

I think it's obvious that you aren't at all interested in intellectually honest discussion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is that a yes. There is evidence for Dark Matter, that is independently verified?

It is a "there's no such thing as Dark Matter, it's a place holder name for the unknown source of gravitational forces we measure but are unnaccounted for"

If you are asking if there is evidence that there is an unknown thing out there, which we call dark matter, which is exerting gravity, the answer is YES. And that evidence consists of the gravitational forces we measure but which are unnaccounted for by regular matter.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do but you’re just talking to yourself now and can’t follow the thought.

Now you seem desperate to avoid acknowledging that I hit the nail on the head.