Demystifying Quantum Physics

[godnotgod]

Funny then, that mystics should be so misinformed about QM.

They're not. Science is. It continues to attempt a rational explanation for something beyond rational understanding, using the finite to encapsulate the infinite. Science is running out of means, because such means have reached their limits both on the micro and the macro scales.

You're confusing facts about the phenomenal world with the true Reality that underlies it.

 

[Skeptisch]

They're not. Science is. It continues to attempt a rational explanation for something beyond rational understanding, using the finite to encapsulate the infinite. Science is running out of means, because such means have reached their limits both on the micro and the macro scales.

You're confusing facts about the phenomenal world with the true Reality that underlies it.

Deepak Chopra, the woo woo master, mental spoon bender and prince of charlatanism, could not have said it much better. Congrats!
For those who may not know what we are talking about, here a little sample:


[youtube]09UmufmfSLc[/youtube]
Sam Harris Exposes Deepak Chopra's Religious Woo Woo - YouTube

 

[godnotgod]

Deepak Chopra, the woo woo master, mental spoon bender and prince of charlatanism, could not have said it much better. Congrats!
For those who may not know what we are talking about, here a little sample:


[youtube]09UmufmfSLc[/youtube]
Sam Harris Exposes Deepak Chopra's Religious Woo Woo - YouTube

Sam Harris here demonstrates the West's infatuation with Reason, and the ignorance it generates by asking: "What scientific proof is there for that which is beyond scientific proof?" We are more interested in the nurturing and perpetuation of Reason than the goal it supposedly achieves. But it is this very Reason that is the supreme obstacle to true Enlightenment, "The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open*." Reason will lead us nowhere but on and on and on, like a bug going round and round the equator of a billiard ball. Yes, it gives us all the facts, but in the end, tells us nothing. From the outset, it is a process that fragments Reality for Analysis, and in that fragmentation, has already (unwittingly) lost sight of the true nature of Reality.

*Nicolas of Cusa, 'The Vision of God'

 

[Skeptisch]

"The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in [to unreason] will not lie open."
Nicholas of Cusa

Nicholas of Cusa is correct, without reason spoon benders like Chopra would be even more popular, at least in the United States of America where science has failed miserably to educate the masses. Instead, in the US, faith is a virtue and charlatans like Chopra find very fertile ground to promote the belief in the supernatural.

These pretenders manage to downgrade reason and upgrade the supernatural, such as mental spoon bending, astrology, ghosts, the law of attraction, vampires, clairvoyance, telekinesis, astrology, Nostradamus and miracle cures, as well as beliefs in phenomena such as bigfoot, UFO’s, extra-terrestrials, alien abduction etc. Please people, lets all try and do a little critical thinking and distance ourselves from those who promote unreason.

Mr Spinkles, thanks for your effort to demystify QM.
Happy Canada Day.
:run:

 

[idav]

Deepak Chopra, the woo woo master, mental spoon bender and prince of charlatanism, could not have said it much better. Congrats!
For those who may not know what we are talking about, here a little sample:


[youtube]09UmufmfSLc[/youtube]
Sam Harris Exposes Deepak Chopra's Religious Woo Woo - YouTube

I didn't have much issue with what either of them said, Chopra just had a more poetic way about what he was saying but that is the stuff that can be misleading. More Chopra word salads, alot like some of the stuff some posters say around here.

Shermer: “…the moon is really there whether you look at it or not! It doesn’t apply to the macro-world.”

Chopra: “In the absence of a conscious entity, the moon remains a radically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup.”

What the heck is Chopra supposed to mean with that word salad? lol

 

[Kilgore Trout]

They're not. Science is. It continues to attempt a rational explanation for something beyond rational understanding, using the finite to encapsulate the infinite. Science is running out of means, because such means have reached their limits both on the micro and the macro scales.

You're confusing facts about the phenomenal world with the true Reality that underlies it.

You're confusing meaningless babble with actually saying something.

 

[godnotgod]

Nicholas of Cusa is correct, without reason spoon benders like Chopra would be even more popular, at least in the United States of America where science has failed miserably to educate the masses. Instead, in the US, faith is a virtue and charlatans like Chopra find very fertile ground to promote the belief in the supernatural.

I don't see that he is doing any such thing. He's not saying that the divine nature he refers to has dominion over nature. That is the Abrahamic God. He's not promoting a belief, as in 'doctrine'; he's saying that the mystical experience transforms our view of ourselves and of the world, because the divine nature is within each one of us.

These pretenders manage to downgrade reason and upgrade the supernatural, such as mental spoon bending, astrology, ghosts, the law of attraction, vampires, clairvoyance, telekinesis, astrology, Nostradamus and miracle cures, as well as beliefs in phenomena such as bigfoot, UFO’s, extra-terrestrials, alien abduction etc. Please people, lets all try and do a little critical thinking and distance ourselves from those who promote unreason.

The mystical experience is not the opposite of Reason; it transcends Reason. It is not irrational; it is non-rational, and therefore, non-dual.

Mr Spinkles, thanks for your effort to demystify QM.
Happy Canada Day.
:run:

How quaint. Unfortunately, Mr. Sprinkles, though he makes the effort, has failed to make one inch of progress toward 'demystification' of QM. I am sure that when he does, the world will come flocking to his door.

 

[godnotgod]

You're confusing meaningless babble with actually saying something.

I'm glad to hear you know the difference. Do go on.

 

[godnotgod]

I didn't have much issue with what either of them said, Chopra just had a more poetic way about what he was saying but that is the stuff that can be misleading. More Chopra word salads, alot like some of the stuff some posters say around here.

What the heck is Chopra supposed to mean with that word salad? lol

The phenomenal world we think of as real is an illusion of the mind. What we call 'matter' does not actually exist.

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”

― Max Planck

"And the moon? It exists as an event in consciousness, first and foremost. Because you are also conscious, you not only see the moon, but you participate in the field from which the moon arises. At the core of existence, consciousness operates with no separation of observer, observed, and the process of observation. They come as a three-in-one package. The fallacy all along was to assume that the observer could be erased from the picture. He can't. Consciousness observes itself, and it observes its creations. God does the same thing, which is why sages have wondered if everything doesn't take place in God's mind. Ultimately, it does. But you have to adopt a new model of God that is consciousness-based. Once you do, a host of issues becomes clear. Not just about the moon, but about human beings and what our own future will be like."

Deepak Chopra,

The rest of article is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/which-is-real-the-moon-or_b_509174.html

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I think Deepak Chopra is a very intelligent man within his field of expertise... who has absolutely no understanding whatsoever of QM and should refrain from attempting to use it to explain things that have nothing to do with it.

 

[idav]

The phenomenal world we think of as real is an illusion of the mind. What we call 'matter' does not actually exist.

Matter is what exists. Even if it is just some frequency it still exists.

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”

― Max Planck

It's held together by it's own forces like gravity. Gravity is not intelligent.

"And the moon? It exists as an event in consciousness, first and foremost. Because you are also conscious, you not only see the moon, but you participate in the field from which the moon arises. At the core of existence, consciousness operates with no separation of observer, observed, and the process of observation. They come as a three-in-one package. The fallacy all along was to assume that the observer could be erased from the picture. He can't. Consciousness observes itself, and it observes its creations. God does the same thing, which is why sages have wondered if everything doesn't take place in God's mind. Ultimately, it does. But you have to adopt a new model of God that is consciousness-based. Once you do, a host of issues becomes clear. Not just about the moon, but about human beings and what our own future will be like."

Deepak Chopra,

I don't disagree with him here but then he isn't saying much.

The rest of article is here: Deepak Chopra: Which Is Real, the Moon or God?

The article is wrong. The wavefunction does not collapse from a non-material observer. Thats where all the confusion begins. It is the macro world, which the moon and us are a part of, that causes the collapse. The moon collapses it due to it's enourmous mass, so it is always there even if we aren't looking at it. The physics of the micro world have forces that literally keep us from flying apart.

 

[godnotgod]

I think Deepak Chopra is a very intelligent man within his field of expertise... who has absolutely no understanding whatsoever of QM and should refrain from attempting to use it to explain things that have nothing to do with it.

The phenomena known as Quantum Mechanics permeates the entire universe, so those 'things' you mention have everything to do with it.

In the past, religious dogmatists tried to claim exclusive rights to God and the Bible.

Intellectuals and academics attempt to claim exclusive rights to knowledge.

Scientists want to do the same with QM.

All three have used that argument to beat people up with, employing incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo in exactly the same manner as a witch doctor.

It's an ego thing, you know.

But the cat is out of the bag, and they can't stuff it back in.

 

[godnotgod]

Matter is what exists. Even if it is just some frequency it still exists.

If it is a frequency, it is energy, not matter. Atoms are over 99% empty space. So where is all this so-called 'matter'?


"What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” ― Albert Einstein

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm glad to hear you know the difference.

Me too. I sincerely hope that, someday, you'll also learn this invaluable skill.

 

[George-ananda]

Me too. I sincerely hope that, someday, you'll also learn this invaluable skill.

I noticed how you skipped the last part of his quote 'Do go on'.

Sorry, but you come across as just a barking dog in these discussions. (That was GodnotGod's real point).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I noticed how you skipped the last part of his quote 'Do go on'.

Yes, I notice that it's common for many people to notice irrelevancies while missing the important bits.

Sorry, but you come across as just a barking dog in these discussions. (That was GodnotGod's real point).

My dog barks like mad when he sees pesky rodents rooting around in the trash outside, making a big mess. I don't begrudge him for it.

 

[godnotgod]

It's held together by it's own forces like gravity. Gravity is not intelligent.

And yet, you cannot do even a miniscule amount of what gravity can do, but you are intelligent. For that matter, a blade of grass can synthesize its own food without a brain, but you cannot even with a brain, and you are considered intelligent. The list goes on. Do you deny the universe, which contains and nurtures you, intelligence, while claiming it for yourself?

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, I notice that it's common for many people to notice irrelevancies while missing the important bits.



My dog barks like mad when he sees pesky rodents rooting around in the trash outside, making a big mess. I don't begrudge him for it.

I hear a lot of barking and thrashing about. Are you trying to actually say something? So far, you've said nothing in relation to the topic. Just barking and harping. Please, do go on.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I hear a lot of barking and thrashing about.

You and me both. Have you tried a muzzle?

 

[idav]

If it is a frequency, it is energy, not matter. Atoms are over 99% empty space. So where is all this so-called 'matter'?


"What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” ― Albert Einstein

You can call it what you want but my point is that it exists. Frequencies and energies exist.

Einstein was one who first started pointing out that matter is interchangeable with energy. That means everything at it's core is energy.

And yet, you cannot do even a miniscule amount of what gravity can do, but you are intelligent.

What does that have to do with the forces not being intelligent.

For that matter, a blade of grass can synthesize its own food without a brain, but you cannot even with a brain, and you are considered intelligent.

You want to compare us to a rock and how intelligent it's gravity is?

The list goes on. Do you deny the universe, which contains and nurtures you, intelligence, while claiming it for yourself?

When did I deny the universe can be intelligent? You start to see intelligence emerge in lifeforms but not so much with inanimate objects. Gravity is a repercussion of matter existing.