Demystifying Quantum Physics

[godnotgod]

I answered that too, it ocurred via billions of years of chemical and biological evolution.

Your scenario makes intelligence a fluke. Even so, you have still not addressed the question: at what point, and how, does non-material consciousness arise from the material world? All you keep saying is that it has occurred. Biological evolution is about adaptive changes in species in response to environmental pressures. Where does intelligence arise from that process, and how? IOW, what is the mechanism, the launching pad, so to speak, that made possible the 'emergence' of intelligence?

The earth can be seen as a single system as can the universe,

While the universe can be seen as such, it being everything by definition, the Earth cannot; without the Sun, it is a dead planet.

however individual pockets of awareness doesnt make the earth conscious as a whole, animals are special in that regard.

Animals cannot exist without the Earth which sustains them in toto, via air, water, nutirents, and via the life-giving rays of the Sun. So if you are going to attibute 'special' status to animals, how can you leave out the crucial elements which make that possible? We don't come into the world; we come out of it. We are conscious, intelligent beings that come out of a conscious, intelligent universe. Unfortunately, we have lost touch with our original connection and have formed false, egoic concepts about what that intelligence is, which in turn have been the cause of much human misery and destruction of our planet, as the bloody history of man is testament to. This egoic intellect is driven by greed and hatred, making it disharmonious with nature and out of control. One of the primary features of this egoic consciousness is that it thinks itself conscious and separate from what it deems an unconscious and unintelligent world it thinks it can manipulate and bulldoze as a means of ego gratification. Any spiritual considerations are never taken into account, with disastrous results, as we have seen. On top of that, we very unintelligently apply more egoic 'solutions' to address the issues, only making matters worse.

There is no [physical] component of consciousness.

You had stated that consciousness is not non-physical. So where is the physical aspect of consciousness?

Data can be stored in various mediums like a record player and a needle or a electromagnetic force holding data for ghosts.

Excuse me? If you believe ghosts exist, then you believe consciousness can be non-physical.

 

[idav]

Your scenario makes intelligence a fluke. Even so, you have still not addressed the question: at what point, and how, does non-material consciousness arise from the material world?

I can't address a loaded question very easily. Why should consciousness be nonmaterial when it comes from the material brain?

I do have an old thread asking about when intelligence occurs in the universe, before during or after the big bang.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...049-how-long-did-take-intelligence-exist.html

All you keep saying is that it has occurred. Biological evolution is about adaptive changes in species in response to environmental pressures. Where does intelligence arise from that process, and how? IOW, what is the mechanism, the launching pad, so to speak, that made possible the 'emergence' of intelligence?

I also mentioned chemical evolution. The turning point is when chemicals evolve to the point of being autonomous.

I have a thread asking about this and one answer that was good was the mention of when replication occurs especially since it is a form of creation.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...149728-how-does-chemistry-become-biology.html

While the universe can be seen as such, it being everything by definition, the Earth cannot; without the Sun, it is a dead planet.

The earth would be dead since is came from the sun but it's battery life isn't as long as the suns.

Animals cannot exist without the Earth which sustains them in toto, via air, water, nutirents, and via the life-giving rays of the Sun. So if you are going to attibute 'special' status to animals, how can you leave out the crucial elements which make that possible?

I'm not giving special status to animals, since awareness is illusory it isn't all that special. When we look at the sun, we are the sun looking at itself and I don't think the sun is self aware of itself.

We don't come into the world; we come out of it. We are conscious, intelligent beings that come out of a conscious, intelligent universe.

This intelligent universe bit falls into the trap of infinite regretion. The idea that intelligence must come from intelligence, how so? If intelligence must come from intelligence then how did the first intelligence come about by default. This is one issue for the beginning, a complex creator being default. It is easier to presume emergence and evolution from a simpler to more complex state. The beginning was more of pure energy, not sure it was planning on us being here billions of years later.

Unfortunately, we have lost touch with our original connection and have formed false, egoic concepts about what that intelligence is, which in turn have been the cause of much human misery and destruction of our planet, as the bloody history of man is testament to. This egoic intellect is driven by greed and hatred, making it disharmonious with nature and out of control. One of the primary features of this egoic consciousness is that it thinks itself conscious and separate from what it deems an unconscious and unintelligent world it thinks it can manipulate and bulldoze as a means of ego gratification. Any spiritual considerations are never taken into account, with disastrous results, as we have seen. On top of that, we very unintelligently apply more egoic 'solutions' to address the issues, only making matters worse.

Right so why should intelligence be default. I'm not putting it on the pedestal, you are. It is a powerful world but I don't see it intelligently defending itself from the likes of humans. Humans have the power to turn it around and respect the nature that is our source.

You had stated that consciousness is not non-physical. So where is the physical aspect of consciousness?

The brain.

Excuse me? If you believe ghosts exist, then you believe consciousness can be non-physical.

My description isn't so much a ghost as much as a recorded event in space-time.

 

[godnotgod]

I can't address a loaded question very easily. Why should consciousness be nonmaterial when it comes from the material brain?

Talk about a loaded question! That it comes from a material brain has never yet been established. Emergence is only a hypothesis. On the contrary: it is the brain that comes from consciousness! Evidence? For one, scientific studies of long-term meditators reveal that they develop thicker cortexes than non-meditators.

If consciousness is material, where is it?

I do have an old thread asking about when intelligence occurs in the universe, before during or after the big bang.

You're not getting it: Conscious intelligence does not occur before or after anything. It is outside of Time, Space, and Causation. It is the invisible background to everything we call the universe. It's there when the universe is being manifested, and when it is not being manifested. It is the Absolute. As for the Big Bang, there was no 'before' or 'after', as Time, Space, and Causation never existed to begin with, nor do they exist in reality now. They are but concepts.

I will take a look at your thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...049-how-long-did-take-intelligence-exist.html

I also mentioned chemical evolution. The turning point is when chemicals evolve to the point of being autonomous.

Both 'chemical' and biological evolution are going along in a particular direction, then, for some reason unbeknownst to us, it takes a different turn, and creates consciousness, correct? What I am asking, is what is the nature of that turn? You can't just say consciousness evolved along with biological/chemical evolution because it is convenient. We need evidence, and I am afraid there is none. It's just an idea at this point. It's what we call 'upward causation', as contrasted to 'downward causation', which is exactly the opposite scenario of your suggestion.

Autonomous? Like animals and humans? They're far from autonomous. They're entirely interdependent with their environments.

I have a thread asking about this and one answer that was good was the mention of when replication occurs especially since it is a form of creation.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...149728-how-does-chemistry-become-biology.html

None of this points to the idea that consciousness emerged from the material world.

The earth would be dead since is came from the sun but it's battery life isn't as long as the suns.

My point was that it is not an independent system. It is dependent upon the
Sun for its life.

I'm not giving special status to animals, since awareness is illusory it isn't all that special. When we look at the sun, we are the sun looking at itself and I don't think the sun is self aware of itself.

You cannot do anywhere near what the Sun can do, and yet you have no issue with the idea of self-awareness. In fact, the Sun does'nt even need a brain to do what it can do, and you, with a brain, cannot even approach its magnitude.

This intelligent universe bit falls into the trap of infinite regretion. The idea that intelligence must come from intelligence, how so? If intelligence must come from intelligence then how did the first intelligence come about by default. This is one issue for the beginning, a complex creator being default. It is easier to presume emergence and evolution from a simpler to more complex state. The beginning was more of pure energy, not sure it was planning on us being here billions of years later.

As I stated, the Universal Intelligence did not 'come from' anything. There is no 'before' or 'after'. There just 'is', and It 'is' without Time, Space, or Causation.

Right so why should intelligence be default. I'm not putting it on the pedestal, you are. It is a powerful world but I don't see it intelligently defending itself from the likes of humans. Humans have the power to turn it around and respect the nature that is our source.

It's intelligence is not of the same nature as that of the ego of mankind. At some point, man's destruction of the environment will just backfire on him. In fact, it is already doing that, the repercussions of which we are not totally yet aware.

The brain.

My question was not what is the source of consciousness, but what is the material nature of consciousness, which is what you had claimed. The brain itself is not consciousness.

My description isn't so much a ghost as much as a recorded event in space-time.

Both of which are illusions.

 

[atanu]

---

What is the take-home message here? Weird physics at the level of atoms is not a license to extrapolate any weird idea to the level of everyday experience. Deepak Chopra would like to say that quantum physics is about "fields of possibility", and therefore maybe anything is possible, and therefore you should buy his books so you can realize any possibility you want. The truth is that some things are far, far less possible than others. Just ask a baseball.

I am afraid that the bold part is worse generalisation than the variety that Chopra employs.

 

[Straw Dog]

Even if everything were possible, this doesn't mean that everything is equally probable at any given moment.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Even if everything were possible, this doesn't mean that everything is equally probable at any given moment.

quantum mechanics doesn't even say that its all possible. Its saying that we can't "know" what is possible and what isn't. We simply can only calculate the probabilities.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

---

What is the take-home message here? Weird physics at the level of atoms is not a license to extrapolate any weird idea to the level of everyday experience. Deepak Chopra would like to say that quantum physics is about "fields of possibility", and therefore maybe anything is possible, and therefore you should buy his books so you can realize any possibility you want. The truth is that some things are far, far less possible than others. Just ask a baseball.

I am afraid that the bold part is worse generalisation than the variety that Chopra employs.

No, it's not. I quoted Chopra in post #426, read for yourself (the first few quotes just provide context ... you have to read all of them):

The quantum field ... is your extended body.
...
No matter how separate anything appears to the senses, nothing is separate at the quantum level.
...
[A] thought also transforms the field--it takes the infinite possibilities of the void and shapes a specific space-time event.
...
Every so-called involuntary function, from heartbeat and breathing to digestion and hormone regulation, can be consciously controlled. ... Try to let go of the assumption that your body is aging because things just are that way ... the quantum worldview, or the new paradigm, teaches us that we are constantly making and unmaking our bodies.
...
[W]hen you have a desire, you are actually sending a message into the entire field--your slightest intention is rippling across the universe at the quantum level. We have already seen that when you have an intention related to your body, it gets carried out automatically. The same thing should occur, then, with intentions you send outside your body--the field has the organizing power to automatically bring fulfillment to any intention.

Everyone notices occasional instances when a desire unexpectedly comes true when something you wished for appears out of nowhere--a call from an old friend, unexpected money or job offer, a new relationship. These are the times when your connection to the field is clear. When your desires don't come true, your awareness has suffered some block or disconnection from its source in the field. It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear.

From Ageless Body, Timeless Mind: The Quantum Alternative by Deepak Chopra. The emphasis in that last sentence is not mine, it's Chopra's! "It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear." It's implied these desires include, first and foremost, friends, money, and sex.

So I repeat: Deepak Chopra would like to say that quantum physics is about "fields of possibility", and therefore maybe anything is possible, and therefore you should buy his books so you can realize any possibility you want. Of course he uses vague language that can always be re-interpreted to avoid almost any criticism (that's the beauty of quackery), but if he doesn't say this explicitly, at the very least he winks at it, and makes no effort to constrain the credulity of his readers.

That's not a generalization, it's a specific observation based on quoting Chopra's words.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Even if everything were possible, this doesn't mean that everything is equally probable at any given moment.

quantum mechanics doesn't even say that its all possible. Its saying that we can't "know" what is possible and what isn't. We simply can only calculate the probabilities.

Right, but actually in addition to there being probabilities for the things that are possible, there are also lots of things that are impossible, according to quantum mechanics. Like the Pauli exclusion principle, for example, which says no two electrons can occupy the same state. That's a HUGE constraint on what is possible, and because of that constraint we have atoms and chemistry and life. But the underlying rule, like many rules of quantum mechanics, is every bit as much about what is IMPOSSIBILE, as it is about what is possible. So much for Chopra's misleading picture of "infinite possibilities".

When you zoom out from the microscopic level of electrons, to the macroscopic level of an entire person on the telephone receiving an unexpected offer of money (to use Chopra's example ), there are even more confounding factors which may make that outcome either impossible, or highly unlikely, depending on the individual case, in addition to the basic rules of quantum mechanics.

 

[atanu]

No, it's not. I quoted Chopra in post #426, read for yourself (the first few quotes just provide context ... you have to read all of them):


From Ageless Body, Timeless Mind: The Quantum Alternative by Deepak Chopra. The emphasis in that last sentence is not mine, it's Chopra's! "It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear." It's implied these desires include, first and foremost, friends, money, and sex.

So I repeat: Deepak Chopra would like to say that quantum physics is about "fields of possibility", and therefore maybe anything is possible, and therefore you should buy his books so you can realize any possibility you want. Of course he uses vague language that can always be re-interpreted to avoid almost any criticism (that's the beauty of quackery), but if he doesn't say this explicitly, at the very least he winks at it, and makes no effort to constrain the credulity of his readers.

That's not a generalization, it's a specific observation based on quoting Chopra's words.

hA hA.

I am not fan boy of Mr. Chopra but he did not say buy my books and realise ....

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I am not fan boy of Mr. Chopra but he did not say buy my books and realise ....

He doesn't need to say it outright. He simply claims to know that your every desire can be fulfilled if you wish for it the right way--including unexpected telephone calls offering money. And this is explained in a book which is for sale. Readers can be expected to connect the dots.

 

[atanu]

He doesn't need to say it outright. He simply claims to know that your every desire can be fulfilled if you wish for it the right way--including unexpected telephone calls offering money. And this is explained in a book which is for sale. Readers can be expected to connect the dots.

uh uh.

 

[godnotgod]

He doesn't need to say it outright. He simply claims to know that your every desire can be fulfilled if you wish for it the right way--including unexpected telephone calls offering money. And this is explained in a book which is for sale. Readers can be expected to connect the dots.

Here is what he actually DOES say:

[youtube]sgu_BtHCjDE[/youtube]
What Are The Seven Principles of Manifesting Your Desires? Ask Deepak! - YouTube

 

[godnotgod]

quantum mechanics doesn't even say that its all possible. Its saying that we can't "know" what is possible and what isn't. We simply can only calculate the probabilities.

Chopra addresses what we ordinarily call 'reality' as actually being possibilities in this video @ around 1 minute in:

[youtube]NRqxnI96aIE[/youtube]
Michael Shermer fires back at Deepak Chopra | WHO ARE YOU? Part 3 - YouTube

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Chopra addresses what we ordinarily call 'reality' as actually being possibilities in this video @ around 1 minute in:

[youtube]NRqxnI96aIE[/youtube]
Michael Shermer fires back at Deepak Chopra | WHO ARE YOU? Part 3 - YouTube

I'm more than aware of what this means. However what I'm saying is that there is not some magical ability for anything to happen on the subatomic level. We still have laws of the universe and they still play by them.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Then we had better add Amit Goswami to that as he and Chopra are saying much the same thing, except that Goswami is a bona fide theoretical physicist who, in spite of his QM credentials, still must not know much about it. Chopra, besides being a credentialed medical doctor specializing in endocrinology and an ayurvedist, has a long list of recognized achievements under his belt, having headed several organizations and projects, and the author of some 70 books. See here:

Deepak Chopra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And don't forget Nick Herbert as well. I am sure there are more.

 

[atanu]

In another thread, many connections were claimed between mysticism and quantum mechanics. My purpose here is not to denigrate, disprove, or criticize mysticism itself in any ------ll.

My quarter cent:

It is probably a quantum jump -- whatever that means -- to claim that Quantum physics findings validate Vedic knowledge. It is not required and it is contrary to The Vedic teaching that mind-word returns from the truth. Appreciation of Vedic knowledge ultimately comes from non-thought and not from mental acrobatics.

The Vedic knowledge, to put in a capsule form, says that a homogeneous formless unbound entity called Atman-Brahman is the timeless reality of the reality. As per Vedanta, the existence- intelligence manifested in form of life is reality. But the Atman, which is ungraspable, unseen, unspeakable ... Is the reality of the reality. The intelligence and life is simply its unintended product.There is no second and this non-dual atman is to be known in order to dispel so-called ills that actually stem from a simple mental mistake of assuming that "I am this body-mind". All evil, all pain, all ills are mothered by this mistake, which is called Maya in Hindu darshana. Just as light creates shadow and is known with reference to shadow alone, it is the nature of atman, which is pure knowledge, to manifest non-knowledge so that the knowledge can be known-perceived.

Veda-Vedanta hold that once the knowledge is grasped, the shadow of evil, agony, illness etc., that all stem from the mistaken notion of "I am this body-mind", all vanish. And there is no time-space for the atman and consequently no death.

The teaching is that the mere non- substantial, impermanent thoughts that give shape to manifold objects, cover up the homogeneous atman, which is of the nature of unbroken knowledge, existence, and bliss, which we touch in deep sleep when the mind does not create objects. Though we touch the pure unbounded knowledge-bliss in deep sleep, it is not known at all, because of lack of any boundary-contrast in this non-dual entity. The happiness is as simple as experiencing the true unpartitioned nature of atman and to abide in that knowledge in full waking consciousness.

At a level of common secular knowledge, Vedanta simply teaches that "I" is not what it seems to be and exhorts us to check for oneself the nature of the "I". The best example of this can be cited from Chandogya Upanishad. The guru asks his student to break open a fruit and it's seed and points to the empty space within the seed and then teaches "You are that". So, we are not the solid body etc. that we assume that we are, but we are like the empty space within a seed.

Actually, physics -- and all of science -- points to the above knowledge, but since the goal is exactly the opposite, the plain vision is lost. Quantum physics has at least indicated a possibility of a instantaneous knowledge transmission in various photon pair experiments. It has also indicated that beneath the visual physicality is the reality of wave forms and four kinds of forces. It has also suggested that observing may have a role in collapsing the wave function and manifesting the physicality.

And indeed the fathers of Quantum physics were not averse to the so-called mystical sayings of the Upanishads.

On the other hand, those who try to propound that intelligence-life is a created or emergent property of inert matter cannot explain why their sayings alone are to be considered to have truth value, since as per their claim, their intelligence is merely a deterministic product of some molecules etc.. Actually, this, in my opinion, is just foolishness. There is another class of people who claim, following, Turing, that intelligence is mere computation. First, there is no machine that has passed the Turing test. And, more importantly, if a machine passes the Turing test, a pre existent Seer-Knower would be required to assert that a machine has passed the Turing test.

I say that Dennet et al are simply unthinking automatons. Their philosophy actually infers that. Their intelligence is product of random chemical reactions and thus cannot have any truth value whatsoever.

On the other hand, Quantum physics indeed suggests towards singularity, non spatial instantaneous communication, role of observation etc. What is the point in trying to rush these under carpet? Actually, Vedanta does not require any support from physics. Ultimate attainment in physics will not give peace to the scientist. Contrariwise, a scientist like Bohr said "I go to Upanishads for questions".

 

[godnotgod]

I'm more than aware of what this means. However what I'm saying is that there is not some magical ability for anything to happen on the subatomic level. We still have laws of the universe and they still play by them.

And yet, some of the observations regarding QM seem to defy these very laws.

Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist, in attempting to apply mathematics to the behavior of black holes, comes up empty-handed and totally dumbfounded:

[youtube]BfrvTbsRWHs[/youtube]
Michio Kaku - The Collapse Of Physics As We Know It - YouTube

 

[Monk Of Reason]

And yet, some of the observations regarding QM seem to defy these very laws.

Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist, in attempting to apply mathematics to the behavior of black holes, comes up empty-handed and totally dumbfounded:

[youtube]BfrvTbsRWHs[/youtube]
Michio Kaku - The Collapse Of Physics As We Know It - YouTube

I think your jumping to things here. Its interesting and trust me as a science nerd I love the new stuff. However there isn't anything mystical about QM beyond the normal scientific query of it all. The quantum word is far more stable than your making it out to be. If it wasn't then our macro world wouldn't be stable. They still follow rules on the subatomic level and we're still finding out those new rules.

 

[godnotgod]

I think your jumping to things here. Its interesting and trust me as a science nerd I love the new stuff. However there isn't anything mystical about QM beyond the normal scientific query of it all. The quantum word is far more stable than your making it out to be. If it wasn't then our macro world wouldn't be stable. They still follow rules on the subatomic level and we're still finding out those new rules.

You're talking mechanics, and I'm talking essence. Dismantling the piano does not yield the music.

What we're finding out is that Reason has reached ineluctible limits both on the micro and macro scales. The mystics are telling us that it is time for the next leap in man's evolution, and that means a transformation of consciousness and the current paradigms.

 

[idav]

And yet, some of the observations regarding QM seem to defy these very laws.

Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist, in attempting to apply mathematics to the behavior of black holes, comes up empty-handed and totally dumbfounded:

[youtube]BfrvTbsRWHs[/youtube]
Michio Kaku - The Collapse Of Physics As We Know It - YouTube

Collapse of physics? You cant divide by zero because it is never really zero. There is always something, just some things are incredibly micro scale.