Mr Spinkles
Mr
Bingo! Have a cigar. :cigar:
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Demystifying Quantum Physics
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
godnotgod
Thou art That
You are deliberately twisting Chopra's meaning as if he is saying 'anything is possible', such as flying or walking through walls, the notion with which you paint him as a snake oil salesman or even a carnie-barker:
"Step right up, folks! Just one thin dime buys you a ticket to Paradise!"
All Chopra is really saying is that, when the mind is freed of its enslavement via social indoctrination, wherein one's behavior is dictated by others and becomes a set of Addictions to the three lower centers of consciousness, namely Power, Sensation, and Security, a field of possibilities opens up which actually transforms these three Addictions into Preferences. This new vista is possible via of the Fourth Center of Consciousness, which is Love.
The cheap-shot scenario YOU present is still within the sphere of the 3 lower centers of consciousness wherein the mind is still enslaved. IOW, you paint a distorted picture of suckers falling for Chopra's bait, as a device to contrast with a fake picture of yourself as 'humble scientist dedicated only to Truth'.
Your ego-devices are getting old, Sprinkles, just like Legion's. Ho hum, but no...still far, far, from any cigar.
Next!
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godnotgod
Thou art That
"Yes, indeedy, folks! Step right up! Free cigars all around! Heh....heh...heh.... There now! Does'nt that make you feel more secure in the knowledge that Holy Science has everything under control? Why, just imagine the infinite field of possibilities at your beck and call! With Holy Science, folks, anything and everything is possible! Why, juss any l'il 'ol thing yo' l'il 'ol heart desires! Soon we'll have you strapped in and flying through thin air, or, in our advanced course, even walking through solid walls! We're working on exciting new possibilities too, such as Walking on Water! You others will just have to be satisfied with the pursuit of get-rich-quick real estate scams.":slap:
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godnotgod
Thou art That
The other factor is you seeing the possibility and making the conscious choice to actualize it. But to see the possibility in the first place requires a mind that is freed from the limitations of Reason.
godnotgod
Thou art That
My view is that the Infinite cannot be contained within the finite. Mathematics and Physics are systems designed to do just that. They work for awhile, but then reach ineluctable limits. Don't we see that in the Planck Scale? In the area of QM and Black Holes, I think you would agree that these still remain mysteries. Science is dealing with something it does not and cannot ultimately and truly understand, simply because all of its methods are those which attempt to encapsulate in concept, formula, and theory that which cannot be so encapsulated. While it can lead us to a threshold, it cannot carry us beyond it, and another kind of view is required beyond what Logic, Reason, and Analysis can afford. The reason QM appears to us paradoxical is because it's very nature is elusive of the scientific method.
"Science is intellectual. It is an effort to destroy the mystery of life. It kills the wonder. It is against the miraculous."
"Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant... said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing ’that this is the whole. ..Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.
But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heinsenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong.
All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason."
Osho
http://www.science.marshall.edu/karna/osho/oshobooks/ZenThePathOfParadox1to3.pdf
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I'm not twisting his meaning, he all but promises immortality and the fulfillment of your every desire through the "infinite possibilities" of the "quantum field". Here's Chopra in his own words:
The quantum field ... is your extended body.
...
No matter how separate anything appears to the senses, nothing is separate at the quantum level.
...
[A] thought also transforms the field--it takes the infinite possibilities of the void and shapes a specific space-time event.
...
Every so-called involuntary function, from heartbeat and breathing to digestion and hormone regulation, can be consciously controlled. ... Try to let go of the assumption that your body is aging because things just are that way ... the quantum worldview, or the new paradigm, teaches us that we are constantly making and unmaking our bodies.
...
[W]hen you have a desire, you are actually sending a message into the entire field--your slightest intention is rippling across the universe at the quantum level. We have already seen that when you have an intention related to your body, it gets carried out automatically. The same thing should occur, then, with intentions you send outside your body--the field has the organizing power to automatically bring fulfillment to any intention.
Everyone notices occasional instances when a desire unexpectedly comes true when something you wished for appears out of nowhere--a call from an old friend, unexpected money or job offer, a new relationship. These are the times when your connection to the field is clear. When your desires don't come true, your awareness has suffered some block or disconnection from its source in the field. It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear.
From Ageless Body, Timeless Mind: The Quantum Alternative by Deepak Chopra....
No matter how separate anything appears to the senses, nothing is separate at the quantum level.
...
[A] thought also transforms the field--it takes the infinite possibilities of the void and shapes a specific space-time event.
...
Every so-called involuntary function, from heartbeat and breathing to digestion and hormone regulation, can be consciously controlled. ... Try to let go of the assumption that your body is aging because things just are that way ... the quantum worldview, or the new paradigm, teaches us that we are constantly making and unmaking our bodies.
...
[W]hen you have a desire, you are actually sending a message into the entire field--your slightest intention is rippling across the universe at the quantum level. We have already seen that when you have an intention related to your body, it gets carried out automatically. The same thing should occur, then, with intentions you send outside your body--the field has the organizing power to automatically bring fulfillment to any intention.
Everyone notices occasional instances when a desire unexpectedly comes true when something you wished for appears out of nowhere--a call from an old friend, unexpected money or job offer, a new relationship. These are the times when your connection to the field is clear. When your desires don't come true, your awareness has suffered some block or disconnection from its source in the field. It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear.
The emphasis in that last sentence is not mine, it's Chopra's! "It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear." But he's not saying anything is possible, no. Only a snake oil salesman would say that.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
There may be ineluctable limits to human reason, but Heisenberg's uncertainty principle cannot be pressed into the service Osho is trying to get out of it. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is not a limit on human reason, it's a constraint on the nature of particles. If anything, its discovery is a triumph of human mathematical and experimental reasoning. See the OP.godnotgod (quoting Osho) said:
godnotgod
Thou art That
I'm not twisting his meaning, he all but promises immortality and the fulfillment of your every desire through the "infinite possibilities" of the "quantum field". Here's Chopra in his own words:
The quantum field ... is your extended body.From Ageless Body, Timeless Mind: The Quantum Alternative by Deepak Chopra.
...
No matter how separate anything appears to the senses, nothing is separate at the quantum level.
...
[A] thought also transforms the field--it takes the infinite possibilities of the void and shapes a specific space-time event.
...
Every so-called involuntary function, from heartbeat and breathing to digestion and hormone regulation, can be consciously controlled. ... Try to let go of the assumption that your body is aging because things just are that way ... the quantum worldview, or the new paradigm, teaches us that we are constantly making and unmaking our bodies.
...
[W]hen you have a desire, you are actually sending a message into the entire field--your slightest intention is rippling across the universe at the quantum level. We have already seen that when you have an intention related to your body, it gets carried out automatically. The same thing should occur, then, with intentions you send outside your body--the field has the organizing power to automatically bring fulfillment to any intention.
Everyone notices occasional instances when a desire unexpectedly comes true when something you wished for appears out of nowhere--a call from an old friend, unexpected money or job offer, a new relationship. These are the times when your connection to the field is clear. When your desires don't come true, your awareness has suffered some block or disconnection from its source in the field. It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear.
The emphasis in that last sentence is not mine, it's Chopra's! "It is normal to have all desires be fulfilled if your awareness is open and clear." But he's not saying anything is possible, no. Only a snake oil salesman would say that.
Nothing new here. This is ancient teaching. Now, Chopra may not be synching with YOUR notion of 'all desires being fulfilled', such as in "Super-Cali-Fragil-istic-espi-ali-docious!"; he most likely means desires that are in harmony with the enlightened state, which are not ordinary immature human desires of a childish mentality, like 'gobs and gobs of Tooty-Fruity ice cream til one vomits' kind of desire. In fact, and I happen to know this is true, what a being of higher consciousness might desire is to have fewer desires! Less is more, in that there are fewer encumbrances in one's life, which allows for greater joy in what is going on in one's life in the Present Moment. Less clutter; less anxiety; less drama; more joy. That's the key.
Taking conscious control of one's brain activity, one's breathing rhythm, one's heartbeat, etc., is done all the time, with positive mental, spiritual, and physical results.
Chopra is simply matching ancient teachings with new scientific findings.
In the Zen community, one of the gifts that go right along with the enlightened state is that of psychic powers, though this is not advertised much to the outside world. It is this gift which has allowed many Zen monks to actually predict the day of their death, so that they can instruct their associates how to handle the details of their deaths. Chopra's father himself willfully decided to check out during a meditation session; he passed on during meditation as he determined it was time to go.
To qualify, Chopra means 'good desires', not harmful or evil ones. Those will only backfire.
So, velly velly solly, Sprinky old chap, but we have no grounds to arrest Dr. Chopra for peddling snake oil. Uh...BTW...uh...what's that stuff you've got there dripping out of that bag you're carrying? What? 'Demystifying Essence'? I'm afraid we'll need to confiscate that! Security!
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Sorry, you're wrong.
What you said Osho is saying is not what Osho is saying.
"In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle known as complementary variables, such as position x and momentum p, can be known simultaneously."
Wikipedia
IOW, it is an (ineluctable) limit on the precision with which a particle can be measured; not a constraint on the nature of the particle itself, as you claim.
Measurement is an aspect of the reasoning process, which is found to be ineluctably limited in the Heisenberg Principle.
Osho is not saying anything about 'observer effect'. Once again, Osho states:
"Heinsenberg...[has] shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong."
...so what he is saying is simply that, contrary to what reason tells us, we cannot measure pairs of particles with any precision, beyond a certain point.
So while the Heisenberg Principle is not a limit on human reason perse, it is a limit to the extent reason (ie; 'measurement) can be applied to certain natural phenomena.
The key to understanding Osho's statements is in one word: paradigm. All he is really saying is that what is considered true by science today may be overturned by new discoveries tomorrow, and that is precisely what the Heisenberg Principle has done, as well as what QM has done to Classical Newtonian Physics.
I believe this is commonly known as 'Paradigm Shift'.
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Mr Spinkles
Mr
That's your qualification, not Chopra's. Regardless of what you think he means, what he says is highly misleading at best. He says all our desires, such as "unexpected money", will come true if we think it into reality. Because of the quantum field ... something, something ... quantum. As far as I know he doesn't even qualify the title of his book--that there are some aspects of aging and death which are indeed unavoidable, no matter how hard you wish them away.godnotgod said:
If you can't see that he's peddling snake oil I've got some quantum real estate in Florida to sell ya.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Both statements are correct. If a particle cannot simultaneously have a definite position and momentum, then it follows that we cannot simultaneously measure a definite position and momentum. If it was just a constraint on what can be measured then nature would lose much of the "quantum weirdness" mystics such as yourself delight in.godnotgod said:
godnotgod
Thou art That
That's your qualification, not Chopra's. Regardless of what you think he means, what he says is highly misleading at best. He says all our desires, such as "unexpected money", will come true if we think it into reality. Because of the quantum field ... something, something ... quantum. As far as I know he doesn't even qualify the title of his book--that there are some aspects of aging and death which are indeed unavoidable, no matter how hard you wish them away.
If you can't see that he's peddling snake oil I've got some quantum real estate in Florida to sell ya.
I see. So you've been had and now you want to pass it on, do 'ya?
There are not two ways in Higher Consciousness. When that level is reached, one sees things in a certain way, and fewer desires just go along with the territory.
Chopra himself is a wealthy man, having earned every penny honestly, contrary to your claim that he is duping people. His wealth alone is a testament to his claim of fulfilled desires. Some people just have the knack for attracting wealth and he happens to be one of them. Some people just know how to handle it. Bother you?
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Oh, cut it out! Now you're being just plain silly! What do you imagine? That we cavort around in the nude in Quantum Hot Tubs? We neither take delight nor not take delight in QM. It's just ordinary, everyday QM. Get over it.
If you cannot measure it, it is a limit on [the application of] reason. That's all folks!
See. Another kind of conscious awareness is required here. Otherwise.....
:banghead3
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Nonsense. I can't measure invisible pink unicorns, that's not a limit on the application of reason, it's more like a limit on the application of unreason.
Mathematically, a wave cannot have an exact position and momentum. A well-localized wave is spreading out in all directions, and a wave with a definite momentum is spread out in its position. The discovery that particles are also wavelike was, if anything, a triumph of theoretical and experimental reasoning.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
No. But Chopra's statements are misleading about QM, hence the inspiration for this thread. The odds of "unexpected money" coming to you from quantum mechanics are about as good as the odds of an "unexpected home run" being hit by the baseball I described in the OP. It ain't gonna happen. According to quantum mechanics.godnotgod said:
I used it as an adjective. When you declare that your access to some source itself enables you to say that scientist don't understand QM, but you do, because you have access to the source itself, that is the claim of omniscience.
Tell me, does your access to the source itself give you an ability to understand what you just said above? Why is it grammatically incorrect? That is, why does the copula asi, which should relate the nominative neuter tas with another neuter, relate it to the masculine tvam? What does the "source itself" tell you is the reason for this grammatical error? Why should we translate it according to commentators of a bygone age who said it means "thou art that" were wrong, and although sa tvam asi would be "thou art that", not tas tvam asi, the traditional translation carried on in spite of inaccuracy?
Which is why there is only one mystical approach (only there isn't), only one interpretation of the Upinasads (only there isn't), only one understanding of reality that "the mystic" has (only there isn't), and why your descriptions of "the mystic" do not cohere with many others (most of whom, at least of those I know, might think physics irrelevant, but wouldn't pretend to understand quantum mechanics because of their access to "the source itself."
The sciences have flaws, and nobody denies that. You "source itself" claim is just a poor excuse for an inability to be bothered to learn things the hard way. You don't need to study mathematics, physics, or linguistics because youtube and websites have commercialized religious practices so that you can regurgitate an understanding of a phrase you can't read without even knowing why it is grammatically wrong. Mystics I've known from Japan, China, and elsewhere (I don't think I've ever done more than read what Indian mystics have written) spend years and years studying, many of them obtaining degrees in Western science to relate modern science to ancient practices like acupuncture and qi gong.
You, however, claim to understand physics better than science because you did...what? Watch youtube clips?
There is no "science". There are many elements which are shared by different sciences, such that social sciences tend to have some set of practices, methods, and frameworks that differ in most ways from quantum physicists, but still have a bit of overlap.
However, by characterizing "science" as some entity you can contrast with your knowledge gleaned from the "source itself", you can dismiss the very things that have given you the opportunity to learn about Atman and Brahman, translations, websites, and video clips.
From fluffy bunny wiccans to McDojos, there's always those who'll take the easy route and claim that it enables them to speak of what they do not know.
Which would be what, exactly? What is my mind "enslaved" by? Trying to learn? Not pretending I understand things because I have divinely acquired knowledge with which I can refute any and all counter-arguments without needing any actual knowledge at all?
Have you ever actually read Plato? I mean even in translation? I have. I spent years learning to be able to read texts like that to understand them (and continue to do so), just like I spent years learning mathematics and mechanics to understand physics. I know how much contempt experts in various Eastern practices have for those who claim expertise without walking along the path to acquire it.
You are spoon-fed commercialized "mysticism", stamped and branded.
What would you know? You claim to speak for all mystics but you don't.
No. I don't lump mystics into any single category. Having met and even studied with or from many, I know how different their approaches can be, and I understand why there is no word in the Eastern languages which are so associated with "mysticism". The only thing that allows you to talk about "all mystics" is cultural appropriation and the demarcations, construction, and recasting of various Eastern traditions by Westerners. There's nothing wrong with being eclectic, of course, but claiming to speak for all mystics with your omniscient access to the source you achieved through the internet is insulting. And not just to "science".
What part? The part where you can speak for all mystics because of a word which appeared a few centuries ago and was applied to, not used by, certain groups, while writing of the plurality of mystical experiences throughout centuries described in texts and writings you've never even heard of. And the part where this means you can understand physics.
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zaybu
Active Member
I believe what you have left out what is the most important element, Darwin's theory of evolution: the fact that we've evolved from lower species. Evolution has no specific goal other than for a species to survive not only against the natural elements but also against other species. In that struggle, nothing was ever written in cement that we, homo sapiens, would have the brains completely wired to understand every aspects of the universe. But as the dominant species on this planet, we have accomplished quite an extraordinary feat in understanding a good part of this universe with two simple tools: the alphabet and a number system. Just 100 years ago we began to understand why atoms bond to form molecules. Just 50 years ago, we've discovered DNA, the basic stuff of life. I don't think our journey has ended, rather it has just begun. The reality that we can even understand the nature of our limitations, through math and physics, is extraordinary in itself.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Good to know you got the message!
Too bad you fail to understand that 'thou art that' does not come from the Source as a verbal message, but as a realization of one's spiritual state. You see, it is the spiritual experience which occurs first; and then comes the description. You seem to want it the other way around, as you persist in your emphasis on the study of academia. Just go ask your QuGong instructor. I know he'll set you straight.
But I do make the correction here from 'tas tvam asi' to 'tat tvam asi'; not what you said.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
I agree. But neither DNA, nor math, nor language are the keys to an understanding of the true nature of Reality. In fact, all three are obstacles. These provide conditioned views. The view required is one that is unconditioned, unborn, ungrown, universal. It is outside the spheres of factual knowledge, of learning, of language, of evolution.
Unfortunately, and in spite of man's incredible achievements and advances, he woefully lacks in spiritual understanding, which is that of his own nature. Because of this deficit, he uses his technology and wealth in destructive and selfish ways, as is evinced by both history and the current state of affairs. Spiritual growth imparts maturity, without which man becomes a dangerous creature, not only to himself but to all other living organisms on the planet. It is this spiritual maturity, and not intellectual knowledge alone, which can bring things back into balance and harmony. The intellect has a tendency to rationalize and justify mass destruction on the grounds of 'we're right; they're wrong'. This is the flaw of Reason.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Build me a transistor and I'll believe you.