Demystifying Quantum Physics

[Sculelos]

I know how you guys just love to make fun of spoon bending. I'm going to stand up for it. I've heard too many credible stories from credible people talking sincerely. It doesn't obviously work all the time but seems to require some type of psychic chemistry.

Not all things are easily explainable. Once I lifted 400lbs off the ground with only one hand and one leg functioning properly.

I can't even deadlift that much. Perhaps adrenaline has something to do with it.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I know how you guys just love to make fun of spoon bending.

Honestly that doesn't bother me at all. I've been friends with witches, wiccans (all wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans), druids, and occultists among others, all of whom believe in things like astrology, Tarot readings, divination in general, and much more. I have books on rune casting and Tarot system and many other manuals of a similar nature. I don't actually practice any of the described rituals, techniques, etc., and I do not think that they work, but I do consider the possibility that I am wrong.

The issue is not that Chopra claims to be able to bend spoons or even if he believed he could fly. There are plenty of people who truly believe spells work, and in fact there has been an ongoing debate within academia on ways to differentiate spells and prayers (and if they should be).

The issue is the manner in which he or those like him claim that particular things are possible. They distort descriptions of physics, or simply lie, and use the veneer of scientific authority to lend credence to claims that are not supported by the sciences. If he lectured on kundalini, xi, medition, witchcraft, even dim mak, I wouldn't mind, just so long as he doesn't claim that it has a basis in the sciences (or, if he does, that there is actual empirical and established evidence for this basis). That's the issue. Not what he asserts is possible, but the misuse and mischaracterization of physics he claims makes possible that which he claims.

 

[dust1n]

I know how you guys just love to make fun of spoon bending. I'm going to stand up for it. I've heard too many credible stories from credible people talking sincerely.

So people told you stories, and the guy who wrote "Jurassic Park", and a parapsychologist said they bent a spoon... okay.

Just in case you happen to see this one day, know that the spoon is made of nickel titanium, which... "is a metal alloy of nickel and titanium, where the two elements are present in roughly equal atomic percentages.

Nitinol alloys exhibit two closely related and unique properties: shape memory and superelasticity (also called pseudoelasticity). Shape memory refers to the ability of nitinol to undergo deformation at one temperature, then recover its original, undeformed shape upon heating above its "transformation temperature". Superelasticity occurs at a narrow temperature range just above its transformation temperature; in this case, no heating is necessary to cause the undeformed shape to recover, and the material exhibits enormous elasticity, some 10-30 times that of ordinary metal."

Nickel titanium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[godnotgod]

I vaguely remember hearing about some Japanese sect who have the power to focus their minds on a canary, I believe, and cause its heart to stop beating. Anyone know what I'm talking about? I forgot the details.

 

[Straw Dog]

If no self exists, who is it that chases shadows? Who is it that knows, or not-knows? Is there, then, only shadow-chasing, without a shadow-chaser; only knowing, without a knower?

Much of it seems to exist in the cultural matrix which we draw into preconceptions. Knowledge accumulates through the collective effort of many ages and wisdom through many sages.

And if that is really the case, then there is no one who has any higher insight than any other. Remember, all beings are already enlightened. It's just that many haven't realized it yet.

All beings have the hypothetical potential to actualize enlightenment-mind, but the majority of forms probably will not. Human beings are unique among sentient life. We are the ones seeking to awaken from ignorance. We cannot force freedom onto others. It is a matter of inner cultivation that requires exactly as long as a single lifetime. Enlightenment is more like an action rather than an end state.

The question is not whether one is having a delusion or not, but whether a self exists that is subject to delusion. IOW, it's not MY delusion; it's not YOUR delusion: it's just delusion.

I have a feeling you misinterpreted my "Lord of Logic..." joke as a serious claim?

Uh...ego-jitsu?, LOL

Asking "who is the 'self'?" is the set-up. Giving essential answers is the punchline.

Human beings meet along the axis of the existential. Enlightenment is about our own self-therapy. All intelligent life in the universe knows how to heal itself.

:ninja:

 

[George-ananda]

Honestly that doesn't bother me at all. I've been friends with witches, wiccans (all wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans), druids, and occultists among others, all of whom believe in things like astrology, Tarot readings, divination in general, and much more. I have books on rune casting and Tarot system and many other manuals of a similar nature. I don't actually practice any of the described rituals, techniques, etc., and I do not think that they work, but I do consider the possibility that I am wrong.

The issue is not that Chopra claims to be able to bend spoons or even if he believed he could fly. There are plenty of people who truly believe spells work, and in fact there has been an ongoing debate within academia on ways to differentiate spells and prayers (and if they should be).

The issue is the manner in which he or those like him claim that particular things are possible. They distort descriptions of physics, or simply lie, and use the veneer of scientific authority to lend credence to claims that are not supported by the sciences. If he lectured on kundalini, xi, medition, witchcraft, even dim mak, I wouldn't mind, just so long as he doesn't claim that it has a basis in the sciences (or, if he does, that there is actual empirical and established evidence for this basis). That's the issue. Not what he asserts is possible, but the misuse and mischaracterization of physics he claims makes possible that which he claims.

OK, but if even one of these many different types of 'paranormal' phenomena occasionally occur then it must be explainable by physics. If not by the physics of today then by the physics of tomorrow. It seems to me that between today and tomorrow we need people proposing things that will knock our socks off.

There is a place for non-conservative scientific speculation and to dismiss people because they can't at this moment merge themselves with conservative science is a big mistake. People like Chopra are thinking they can start a bridge from today to tomorrow. I applaud their intentions.

 

[George-ananda]

So people told you stories, and the guy who wrote "Jurassic Park", and a parapsychologist said they bent a spoon... okay.

Just in case you happen to see this one day, know that the spoon is made of nickel titanium, which... "is a metal alloy of nickel and titanium, where the two elements are present in roughly equal atomic percentages.

Nitinol alloys exhibit two closely related and unique properties: shape memory and superelasticity (also called pseudoelasticity). Shape memory refers to the ability of nitinol to undergo deformation at one temperature, then recover its original, undeformed shape upon heating above its "transformation temperature". Superelasticity occurs at a narrow temperature range just above its transformation temperature; in this case, no heating is necessary to cause the undeformed shape to recover, and the material exhibits enormous elasticity, some 10-30 times that of ordinary metal."

Nickel titanium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think your point is that this spoon bending is a natural occurring phenomena that has nothing to do with a conscious entity willing the bend?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I and everyone I know have used cutlery all our lives. I have not experienced anything even close to the so-called 'spoon-bending' phenomena. All occurrences of it seem to be when a conscious entity is willing it to happen; and then certainly not all the time. That suggests to me some type of 'psychic chemistry' is involved.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think your point is that this spoon bending is a natural occurring phenomena that has nothing to do with a conscious entity willing the bend?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I and everyone I know have used cutlery all our lives. I have not experienced anything even close to the so-called 'spoon-bending' phenomena. All occurrences of it seem to be when a conscious entity is willing it to happen; and then certainly not all the time. That suggests to me some type of 'psychic chemistry' is involved.

I have a bridge to sell you. Very affordable.

 

[George-ananda]

I have a bridge to sell you. Very affordable.

I bought that 'Brooklyn' one from Chopra already. I am interested in the 'Golden Gate' one though.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I bought that 'Brooklyn' one from Chopra already. I am interested in the 'Golden Gate' one though.

You're in luck! You have to act fast though, because I have several other interested parties.

 

[George-ananda]

You're in luck! You have to act fast though, because I have several other interested parties.

We're both in luck!!!!

Now that I've showed an IQ score above 55 to the court, the judge said I no longer need a co-signer. Those co-signers can be SO skeptical. They don't have my 'Open Mind'.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

We're both in luck!!!!

Now that I've showed an IQ score above 55 to the court, the judge said I no longer need a co-signer. Those co-signers can be SO skeptical. They don't have my 'Open Mind'.

Good for you! Don't bother with those cynical skeptics. Open up that head and let your brain fly free.

Now, let's sign these papers.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

OK, but if even one of these many different types of 'paranormal' phenomena occasionally occur then it must be explainable by physics.

There is a good reason this thread is called what it is. Among the many famous exchanges (letters, conferences, conversations, etc.) recorded all over the place between Einstein and someone else is one he had with Heisenberg. Einstein criticized the very basis Heisenberg used to develop his theory, and when Heisenberg replied "Isn't that what you did with relativity?" Einstein came back with "Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning but it is nonsense all the same."

By 1935, he was already considered by some to be a relic obsessed with refuting a well-established theory because, as he put it, "we should try to hold on to physical reality".

The reason Einstein responded to another physicist with the sarcastic, rhetorical question "Is the moon there when you don't look at it?" is because that's what quantum theory was basically saying about the basic constituents of physical reality. His derisive attitude of QM (calling entanglement "spooky", refusing to attend the Solvay conference, etc.) was because he dismissed it as...well...mysticism. And in a very, very particular sense, quantum physics is mystifying:

To many an ancient Greek mystic, the idea that one could show beyond doubt that certain properties of some abstract shape held no matter how one might draw it, build it, or see it, was to speak the language of God. Or, as Leopold Kronecker put it, "Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk"...
All this time spent on "demystifying quantum physics" when in reality the word mystical and mysterious have the same origins and for those who used the word mystikos and various derivations of it, quantum physics would be "mystical" in the same way that mathematics is, or statistical mechanics, or Newton's physics:

Nature and nature's laws lay hid in night;
God said "Let Newton be" and all was light.
-Alexander Pope

QM isn't numerology. It may be mystifying, but that is because it is counter-intuitive, not because it isn't well-established as a theory (even if its interpretation is not so well-established).

If not by the physics of today then by the physics of tomorrow.

Whether or not we may find one day that something we dismiss now can be explained by physics and is real, that's not what's going on with Chopra. He's not giving us a new physics, but claiming the one we have is something that it is not. He's being dishonest, manipulative, and deliberately distorting or outright lying about what quantum physics is and what it entails. That is what I object to.

It seems to me that between today and tomorrow we need people proposing things that will knock our socks off.

these reports have such fantastic headlines and and implications that are rarely something I can duplicate.

Until now, thanks to the American Institute of Physics and the conference they held in 2011 on retrocausation. One of the papers in the published in the volume of accepted papers from the conferences was "Causality Is Inconsistent With Quantum Field Theory".

There are solutions to Einstein's equations which allow for, or entail, a sort of time-travel (called closed timelike curves). Where once it was only things like photons that could exist in superposition states, now we've done this with molecules. There is plenty in physics research that will "knock your socks off" (much of it will be wrong, as within any field most theories/models are, but that's how they become refined into a framework of well-established theories).

Personally, I find the brain is mystifying. A neuron fires with certain characteristic frequency: about 100 Hz. Your computer is more than 100,000,000 times faster. And yet even special computers that are over a billion times faster and built with special hardware and which incorporate special databases and use cutting-edge AI programming can't do what a dog's brain can, let alone anything approach a human's. Why? Perhaps because the human brain is arguably the most complex system known to exist. That doesn't mean we are entitled to declare that consciousness proves God exists or other such unsubstantiated claims.

Demystifying quantum mechanics isn't taking away the fact that it is mystifying, it is only making it as mystifying as it should be and as many other theories in the sciences are. It means removing mystical interpretations unsupported by quantum physics and leaving all that is mysterious and mystifying and is supported.

People like Chopra are thinking they can start a bridge from today to tomorrow. I applaud their intentions.

People like Chopra are lying and deceiving. It is one thing to have a controversial theory. Quantum consciousness is a controversial theory, but it is still talked about in mainstream science. Chopra isn't building a bridge, because he isn't developing a new theory or producing new research but lying about existing theories. He is claiming things about what existing theories entail, and what he claims is factually incorrect.

I've read a lot of studies and reviews in peer-reviewed journals which make claims about parapsychology, alternative therapies, the scientific basis for the traditional basis of Chinese medicine, and more. I don't find them convincing, but at least they are published in such a way that they can be evaluated by peers, not by an audience incapable judging the validity of the claims.

The many names behind such studies are names you haven't heard of because they aren't going out selling their integrity to make big bucks. They believe that the phenomena they study are real, and are seeking to demonstrate this. That to me is integrity. Whatever I think about the methods used or the conclusions reached, the authors you've never heard of deliberately published their findings to be evaluated by their peers, to stand or fall on the evidence.

I applaud that.

 

[zaybu]

Demystifying quantum mechanics isn't taking away the fact that it is mystifying, it is only making it as mystifying as it should be and as many other theories in the sciences are. It means removing mystical interpretations unsupported by quantum physics and leaving all that is mysterious and mystifying and is supported.

Somehow I get the feeling that if you find something bewildering or perplexing, it gives you the justification to your belief in spirituality. It's the same reflex that theists have: if something isn't understood, God must exist. In your case, this becomes: if something isn't understood, spirituality must exist. Aren't you fooling yourself?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Somehow I get the feeling that if you find something bewildering or perplexing, it gives you the justification to your belief in spirituality.

Maybe that's because you are a "wanna be" liar who claims to be an expert by lying, backtracking, and moving goal posts. I don't have spiritual beliefs. And unlike you, I'm not an retired teacher of children who had to ask for help on simple physics questions on other forums because they couldn't handle the basics.

I don't have a PhD yet, but at least I don't lie about having one. And I've had enough of your bogus claims where your elementary understanding of quantum physics (quite appropriate for the actual teaching experience you had) means something.

You're just as bad as those who claim that "mystical knowledge" (obtained through the internet) allows them to understand quantum physics. I know who you are, I know who your son is and what he does, I know where you worked and for how long, I know what you've claimed and what degrees you actually have, and quite a bit more. You are just as much of a phony as the fluffy bunny "mystic" who claims special knowledge because s/he has read websites and watched clips on the mystical nature of quantum physics.

 

[Sculelos]

Quantum physics is simply Ionic reactions within neutron fields. (AKA our universe)

The human mind is capable of many amazing things especially using the power within our own voices and our hands, feet and our mental ability. However everyone is still subject to laws.

The Neutron field is called the Higgs field - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However the Neutron field is simply a means of transferring electrical power of the Ion. Ion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are whole entire universe IS ELECTRIC.

Electric Universe theory

I'd give you some of my own work, however I think most would rather read from other more established sources.

 

[PolyHedral]

Quantum physics is simply Ionic reactions within neutron fields. (AKA our universe)

Quantum physics is several layers more fundamental than ions or neutrons.

 

[zaybu]

Maybe that's because you are a "wanna be" liar who claims to be an expert by lying, backtracking, and moving goal posts. I don't have spiritual beliefs. And unlike you, I'm not an retired teacher of children who had to ask for help on simple physics questions on other forums because they couldn't handle the basics.

I don't have a PhD yet, but at least I don't lie about having one. And I've had enough of your bogus claims where your elementary understanding of quantum physics (quite appropriate for the actual teaching experience you had) means something.

You're just as bad as those who claim that "mystical knowledge" (obtained through the internet) allows them to understand quantum physics. I know who you are, I know who your son is and what he does, I know where you worked and for how long, I know what you've claimed and what degrees you actually have, and quite a bit more. You are just as much of a phony as the fluffy bunny "mystic" who claims special knowledge because s/he has read websites and watched clips on the mystical nature of quantum physics.

My grasp of physics is at least 100 times better than yours. All you can do is play bad detective on the internet.I'll bet anything you can't solve a single math problem, while I have done thousands of calculation. You want to go on a physics test, just you and me, I'm game any time you want. The fact that you couldn't hold your own on Spooky action thread and quit debating shows your poor grasp of the subject. Yeap, what I see is you cut and paste from different websites. OTOH, I run my own blog, with my own calculation, not the cut and paste you are only capable of doing. You are a sour loser. There's nothing but bitterness that you have been outdone. So your last resort is ad hominem attack from the little you could dig up on me on the internet. "Yep, you purchased a book called Quantum Field Theory in curved spacetime on Amazon, you must be dumb," that's your stupid idiotic logic. Get a real life.

For those interested, see: http://soi.blogspot.ca/

It's all authentic.

 

[dust1n]

I think your point is that this spoon bending is a natural occurring phenomena that has nothing to do with a conscious entity willing the bend?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You got it.

I and everyone I know have used cutlery all our lives. I have not experienced anything even close to the so-called 'spoon-bending' phenomena. All occurrences of it seem to be when a conscious entity is willing it to happen; and then certainly not all the time. That suggests to me some type of 'psychic chemistry' is involved.

It suggests to me magic tricks and illusions for entertainment purposes. But look how real it looks:

[youtube]69GMr3RlpgU[/youtube]
REAL Matrix Spoon Bending - Telekinesis!! - YouTube

Nickel titanium.

 

[George-ananda]

You got it.



It suggests to me magic tricks and illusions for entertainment purposes. But look how real it looks:

The video wasn’t even in English so I stopped it after three minutes. I had no clue if it was a pro- or anti- psychic video. But as it was you who posted it, I would assume anti-.

However, our little mini-debate here started with my post #560. I’m not following your logic on your refutation. Your information on the properties of nickel titanium is fine but I don’t see how it addresses my post #560. Please re-read my post and tell me how the information you presented can explain amazing stories like these and many others I’ve heard.