Demystifying Quantum Physics

[godnotgod]

Normally breathing can be done without thinking about it.

It would be a hassle for your conscious mind to constantly monitor these types of functions, so it assigns them to the brain. That way, your conscious mind is freed to focus on other activities.

 

[idav]

It would be a hassle for your conscious mind to constantly monitor these types of functions, so it assigns them to the brain. That way, your conscious mind is freed to focus on other activities.

Right so you have to throw out the definition or attribute of consious, being part of intelligence. How convenient.

Here is what I think and ive likely said as much around the forum. Cells have a base awareness but matter doesnt generally, life does. The intelligence is a use of awareness to do other things. Granted communication happens but without being aware of why. So cells show levels of intelligence but the whole is somehow doing more, bringing self awareness and sentience into the picture. Plants may have a base consciousness, I hear in the root system but entirely speculative at this point. It wouldn't bother me if they were. I know there is a pretty complex process involving the recyclying and changing of energies between plants and animals but I hesitate to call the entire process intelligent. At the base everything does action without thought.

 

[Sculelos]

Right so you have to throw out the definition or attribute of consious, being part of intelligence. How convenient.

Here is what I think and ive likely said as much around the forum. Cells have a base awareness but matter doesnt generally, life does. The intelligence is a use of awareness to do other things. Granted communication happens but without being aware of why. So cells show levels of intelligence but the whole is somehow doing more, bringing self awareness and sentience into the picture. Plants may have a base consciousness, I hear in the root system but entirely speculative at this point. It wouldn't bother me if they were. I know there is a pretty complex process involving the recyclying and changing of energies between plants and animals but I hesitate to call the entire process intelligent. At the base everything does action without thought.

I believe rocks and plants and insects have a type of intelligence, I know this because plants respond to music. Water responds to words. And I actually can command plants and rocks to do actions and they will try to find a way to do what I have said even if it means using external means in order to follow my commands.

Granted other people can and do undermine me. But I have manipulated water flow with my words so there is power in the voice.

Scientist usually call the power of belief the placebo effect, but it's a proven phenomenon that people who believe that they will get better even if there is no reason for it get better MORE often then people who believe they will stay sick.

Evidence is there to support that willpower is indeed a very powerful force and anyone who say's otherwise just isn't looking at all the facts.

However saying that we are still in a battle that we aren't going to win and we still are limited in power and any telepathic energy we are able to project is not exactly a whole lot in most situations. However I know that I can read other people sometimes and sense what they are sensing in order to help me find things in my surroundings. Most call this a 6th sense and it's is completely unexplained by science but in my personal opinion it is definitely a real ability that some people can use frequently and with much clarity and some people don't seem to have the ability to use it at all.

 

[godnotgod]

Right so you have to throw out the definition or attribute of consious, being part of intelligence. How convenient.

Here is what I think and ive likely said as much around the forum. Cells have a base awareness but matter doesnt generally, life does. The intelligence is a use of awareness to do other things. Granted communication happens but without being aware of why. So cells show levels of intelligence but the whole is somehow doing more, bringing self awareness and sentience into the picture. Plants may have a base consciousness, I hear in the root system but entirely speculative at this point. It wouldn't bother me if they were. I know there is a pretty complex process involving the recyclying and changing of energies between plants and animals but I hesitate to call the entire process intelligent. At the base everything does action without thought.

Would you include play and creativity in your definition of intelligence?

 

[Sculelos]

Would you include play and creativity in your definition of intelligence?

I'd say everything has a type of intelligence and sentience. However humans confuse intelligence for ability. Even if a rock could think it has no ability to speak or move except for the ability to manipulate objects around itself.

 

[idav]

Would you include play and creativity in your definition of intelligence?

Yes creativity and imagination, being able to learn on our own is a sign of intelligence.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes creativity and imagination, being able to learn on our own is a sign of intelligence.

But is play and creativity for its own sake intelligence, even without learning?

 

[PolyHedral]

But is play and creativity for its own sake intelligence, even without learning?

No. Intelligences learn.

 

[godnotgod]

No. Intelligences learn.

It does, but for learning to occur, intelligence must already be in place. Learning does not create intelligence; intelligence creates learning. Learning is an intelligent, creative process. But the question of learning goes beyond what intelligence actually is perse. IOW, can intelligence just be pure insight, which is knowing, without action?

 

[idav]

It does, but for learning to occur, intelligence must already be in place. Learning does not create intelligence; intelligence creates learning. Learning is an intelligent, creative process. But the question of learning goes beyond what intelligence actually is perse. IOW, can intelligence just be pure insight, which is knowing, without action?

Just being there existing is enough know something but isn't enough to say intelligence is involved. For example it is possible to be aware of every second but witho.ut being able to recall it 10 seconds later it is of no use and intelligence couldn't be utilized. In that sense learning, memory recall, is a prerequisite to intelligence. Perceiving isn't enough until something is actually done with the perception.

 

[godnotgod]

Just being there existing is enough know something but isn't enough to say intelligence is involved. For example it is possible to be aware of every second but witho.ut being able to recall it 10 seconds later it is of no use and intelligence couldn't be utilized. In that sense learning, memory recall, is a prerequisite to intelligence. Perceiving isn't enough until something is actually done with the perception.

I am not talking about existence or knowing something. That is knowledge, while existence implies non-existence. I am talking about a state of consciousness that is beyond this duality, one that is unborn, one that does not come into existence, but is one of pure being that always is. Intelligence is a state, not an action. You say learning and memory must precede intelligence, but what is the faculty by which these two occur if not intelligence itself? In order to initiate memory recall, for example, there must be awareness already present. Creative ideas come about by first seeing them. Seeing itself is intelligence. The solution to the carbon ring cycle was first seen by a German chemist as a snake biting its own tail in a dream. We see a solution to a problem first, and then act upon it. Small insights are epiphanies; great ones are Enlightenment.

I am not implying a catatonic state, as you seem to imply. On the contrary, pure intelligence is heightened awareness beyond the ordinary, conditioned mind. The intelligence you describe is that of the conditioned, limited mind, while my description is that of the unconditioned, limitless mind.

 

[idav]

I am not talking about existence or knowing something. That is knowledge, while existence implies non-existence. I am talking about a state of consciousness that is beyond this duality, one that is unborn, one that does not come into existence, but is one of pure being that always is. Intelligence is a state, not an action. You say learning and memory must precede intelligence, but what is the faculty by which these two occur if not intelligence itself? In order to initiate memory recall, for example, there must be awareness already present. Creative ideas come about by first seeing them. Seeing itself is intelligence. The solution to the carbon ring cycle was first seen by a German chemist as a snake biting its own tail in a dream. We see a solution to a problem first, and then act upon it. Small insights are epiphanies; great ones are Enlightenment.

I am not implying a catatonic state, as you seem to imply. On the contrary, pure intelligence is heightened awareness beyond the ordinary, conditioned mind. The intelligence you describe is that of the conditioned, limited mind, while my description is that of the unconditioned, limitless mind.

A limitless mind would be effortless without even a need to think about it. Not catolatonic per se but able to do without thought. Your redefining intelligence to suit your ideas. I maintain that intelligence evolves from something simpler that is effortless like a growing plant.

Anyhow we have strayed from topic. What does any of this say about perpetuating mysticism in QM?

 

[godnotgod]

A limitless mind would be effortless without even a need to think about it. Not catolatonic per se but able to do without thought. Your redefining intelligence to suit your ideas. I maintain that intelligence evolves from something simpler that is effortless like a growing plant.

Why do you think that? How is it that the 'physical' generates consciousness?

Anyhow we have strayed from topic. What does any of this say about perpetuating mysticism in QM?

That QM, and the entire universe, is merely a manifestation of a greater intelligence:

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

IOW, the universe is an apparition, like a rope seen as a 'snake', because of the conceptual overlays of Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters, and you will see the universe for what it actually is: the Absolute manifesting itself as the universe. But we fail to see it that way because Analysis, Reason, and Logic fragment Reality into 'parts'. The universe, by definition, is not made of separate 'parts'; it is a uni-verse, to which there is no 'other' to which it can be compared. Being everything, it is Absolute.

 

[idav]

Why do you think that? How is it that the 'physical' generates consciousness?

Because I don't think awareness came about until life did.

That QM, and the entire universe, is merely a manifestation of a greater intelligence behind it:

I don't see evidence of that.

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

Agreed but the things mentioned aren't conscious especially causation. Causation is if A then B where it will happen without A nor B needing to know what's going on.

IOW, the universe is an apparition, like a rope seen as a 'snake', because of the conceptual overlays of Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters, and you will see the universe for what it actually is: the Absolute manifesting itself as the universe.

The absolute "manifesting" itself is purposeful will. We don't even know enough about the absolute to say such a thing.

The absolute is Tao and is not conscious, it is nameless. The manifestations are the named things.

Within these contexts Tao signifies the primordial essence or fundamental nature of the universe. In the foundational text of Taoism, the Tao Te Ching, Laozi explains that Tao is not a 'name' for a 'thing' but the underlying natural order of the universe whose ultimate essence is difficult to circumscribe. Tao is thus "eternally nameless” (Dao De Jing-32. Laozi) and to be distinguished from the countless 'named' things which are considered to be its manifestations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

In the Tao te Ching, Laozi explains that beings (or phenomena) that are wholly in harmony with the Tao behave in a completely natural, uncontrived way. As the planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it. As trees grow, they simply grow without trying to grow. Thus knowing how and when to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think, "now I should do this," but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing. The goal of spiritual practice for the human being is, according to Laozi, the attainment of this natural way of behaving.

Wu wei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[godnotgod]

Because I don't think awareness came about until life did.

Why? That does'nt answer the question as to how consciousness arose from the material world.

I don't see evidence of that.

No? What are the characteristics of an apparition; an illusion?

Agreed but the things mentioned aren't conscious especially causation. Causation is if A then B where it will happen without A nor B needing to know what's going on.

I am afraid you are misunderstanding the quote provided. It's saying that the concept of Causation is a distortion of Reality. It is Reality that is conscious and intellilgent; the concept of Causation, as do Time and Space, renders Reality an objective 'thing'. It may as well be in formaldehyde on some laboratory shelf.

The absolute "manifesting" itself is purposeful will. We don't even know enough about the absolute to say such a thing.

Again, the universe, as far as anyone knows, is purposeless. It manifests in numberless stars, planets, galaxies, etc, in infinite variety of shapes and colors, all without rhyme or reason. It appears as delightful play more than anything else, for its own sake. But this kind of play is never willed or purposeful; it is a completely spontaneous (and joyful) event. Further, it is not the result of one's willful 'doing', but rather an awakening and unfolding to what already is Reality in all its fullness.

The absolute is Tao and is not conscious, it is nameless. The manifestations are the named things.

More correctly, the named things are the manifestations, which are the Absolute itself, "...as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation." That is the problem: in reality, there are no separate 'things' at all. Such separate things are merely concepts of the mind. When these concepts are seen for what they are, and are no longer defining Reality, we can then see Reality as One, wherein the Tao and the manifestations (the 'Ten Thousand Things') are actually one and the same.

Quote:
Within these contexts Tao signifies the primordial essence or fundamental nature of the universe. In the foundational text of Taoism, the Tao Te Ching, Laozi explains that Tao is not a 'name' for a 'thing' but the underlying natural order of the universe whose ultimate essence is difficult to circumscribe. Tao is thus "eternally nameless” (Dao De Jing-32. Laozi) and to be distinguished from the countless 'named' things which are considered to be its manifestations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

But since we are not separate from Tao, we are able to see this 'primordial essence' that is within ourselves. However, it is hidden from view for most of us, due to our social indoctrination wherein we see things through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation, which obscures our vision.


The Way that can be told of is not an Unvarying Way;
The names that can be named are not unvarying names.
It was from the Nameless that Heaven and Earth
sprang;
The named is but the mother that rears the ten
thousand creatures, each after its kind.
Truly, 'Only he that rids himself forever of desire can
see the Secret Essences';
He that has never rid himself of desire can see only the
Outcomes.
These two things issued from the same mould, but
nevertheless are different in name.
This 'same mould' we can but call the Mystery,
Or rather the 'Darker than any Mystery',
The Doorway whence issued all Secret Essences.

~Tao Te Ching, Ch 1, Arthur Waley

Quote:
In the Tao te Ching, Laozi explains that beings (or phenomena) that are wholly in harmony with the Tao behave in a completely natural, uncontrived way. As the planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it. As trees grow, they simply grow without trying to grow. Thus knowing how and when to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think, "now I should do this," but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing. The goal of spiritual practice for the human being is, according to Laozi, the attainment of this natural way of behaving.
Wu wei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, of course, but this attainment is a conscious state, which unifies oneself with the Tao, which is the source itself. One's consciousness is not separate from Tao. It never has been. That we think ourselves separate is only an illusion of mind, which itself is an illusion. Consciousness IS Tao!

Baby Fish (to Mama Fish): "Mama, what is the sea? All my friends at school keep talking about the sea."
Mama Fish: "Well, baby, the sea is all around you and inside you"
Baby Fish: (looking frantically all around): "Where? I don't see any sea!"
Mama Fish: "You were born into the sea and will die in the sea"
Baby Fish: (still looking): "*sigh*...I still don't get it... don't see any sea at all...guess it just does'nt exist after all..."

 

[godnotgod]

Because I don't think awareness came about until life did.
.

See, what the problem is, is mind. Mind wants to divide Reality into separate parts, such as life and death, material and non-material, self and other, etc., where no such divisions in nature actually exist. All seeming dualities are actually one process, one event. one Reality. As regards what we call 'life', when we take a closer look, we see that life feeds on 'dead' organic matter, while 'death' is actually teeming with life in the form of macrophages consuming the body. There is no life or death, only continuous, unbroken transformation.

When it is realized there is no separate self from an 'other', where there is no individual consciousness, that such consciousness is illusory, universal, and non-local, then it can be seen that it is in place prior to birth and after death, just as the sea is present prior to wave formation and after wave dissolution.

 

[danieldemol]

Hi godnotgod,

Although Deepak Chopra no doubt has his achievements, it does make sense for people to make authoritative statements on a subject within their area of expertise.

Going to a medical doctor regarding quantum physics is somewhat like going to a brain surgeon to get your car repaired, or a mechanic to get your brain operated on.

 

[idav]

See, what the problem is, is mind. Mind wants to divide Reality into separate parts, such as life and death, material and non-material, self and other, etc., where no such divisions in nature actually exist. All seeming dualities are actually one process, one event. one Reality. As regards what we call 'life', when we take a closer look, we see that life feeds on 'dead' organic matter, while 'death' is actually teeming with life in the form of macrophages consuming the body. There is no life or death, only continuous, unbroken transformation.

When it is realized there is no separate self from an 'other', where there is no individual consciousness, that such consciousness is illusory, universal, and non-local, then it can be seen that it is in place prior to birth and after death, just as the sea is present prior to wave formation and after wave dissolution.

There is life and life feeds on life to sustain itself. Consciousness being an illusion means it is unique to us and goes when we go. If there werent, levels based on intelligence then every animal should be just in tune with the universe. The level of consciousness and intelligence we have is not found other organisms because of the evolution of the brain. The universe could be aware but would never know it without some sort of memory and recall which is possible but is localized events and not universal. The universe wouldn't know what we know without us knowing it. Intelligence exists in the universe because we are proof of it but it isn't the default in nature.

 

[godnotgod]

Hi godnotgod,

Although Deepak Chopra no doubt has his achievements, it does make sense for people to make authoritative statements on a subject within their area of expertise.

Going to a medical doctor regarding quantum physics is somewhat like going to a brain surgeon to get your car repaired, or a mechanic to get your brain operated on.

Besides being a bona-fide medical doctor, Chopra is also a mystic.

What you're not understanding is that the entire universe is the field of interest for the mystic. Underneath all the seeming diversity, variety, and sheer multiplicity lies a single unifying, infinite consciousness that is the Absolute. The specialist's area of interest is within a very narrow aspect of the universe, while the mystic's is that which manifests the entire spectrum. The specialist sees the manifested as real, while the mystic sees what underlies it as true Reality. The phenomenon of QM permeates the entire universe, so it is fitting that the mystic is right at home in interpreting it's true meaning for man. The specialist in QM can only give us dead facts. He does'nt know what they mean. If he did, he would'nt bother to consult the mystic, as the great Austrian Quantum Physicist Anton Zellinger has done with the Dalai Lama.


[youtube]Zjd26JSaq64[/youtube]
The Dalai Lama and Quantum Physics 1/6 - YouTube

 

[godnotgod]

There is life and life feeds on life to sustain itself.

Really? You consume living animals for sustenance on a daily basis?