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Determinism (Thesists Only)

ThirtyThree

Well-Known Member
Do we get a choice, ultimately, on which deity we serve and where we are to spend forever or are we moved by the deity which chooses us? Then, are we all yet moved by G-D?

While I currently believe we have a window of choice, I do not believe in free will. My destinyis, I believe, mostly is predetermined, although I might be able to choose against it. Then, I sincerely doubt this lately. Everything in me and my life is against fighting that current.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
Do we get a choice, ultimately, on which deity we serve and where we are to spend forever or are we moved by the deity which chooses us? Then, are we all yet moved by G-D?

While I currently believe we have a window of choice, I do not believe in free will. My destiny is, I believe, mostly is predetermined, although I might be able to choose against it. Then, I sincerely doubt this lately. Everything in me and my life is against fighting that current.
My finding is that the vast majority of humanity does not have any choice and humanity is mostly just sheep who do as the Shepherd (God) commands.

People like sheep are easily fooled into the perspective that our petty and worldly choices count as our own self determination and that is just a dilution.

A person can choose the type of car or choose their spouse or choose chocolate from vanilla or choose which Church or religion and THAT is their free will - when that stuff is insignificant and irrelevant to our true destiny which is completely governed by the Creator/God pulling the strings all over the planet earth and beyond.

Any person can have a true choice but only after the person seeks and finds the ways of connecting to the true God and then self creating actions which are outside the sheep mentality.

Even then it means free-will from the sheep but never a free will contrary to the Father God.

To do fasting is a very effective way of making a free will choice because that is defying the demands of the flesh, and so is being celebrate (or sexual restraint) as it defies the demands of our flesh, and strong adherence to TRUTH is absolutely required in making a free will choice.

The Mahatma Gandhi is a very real example of a person who made his own free will choices, and the sheep followed him as Gandhi changed the entire direction of the human world.

In order to do such a thing then as person must learn how to accurately separate the physical from the spiritual and then act upon that in a righteous way, because a truly free choice can come only by a very intense connection to the Creator God.

Choosing which God or which Deity is an extremely hard thing to truly choose, and only the very strong in faith can reach that extroidinary plateau.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
On the general question of freewill, we just know we have it. That's why philosophers who deny it write books to persuade other people to change their minds about it. On the other hand, we can over-emphasise it. Imagine if you were accused of murder and a friend accepted that accusation. Wouldn't you be offended and shocked? Would you accept their statement "Well, you could have done it. After all, you have freewill"? Having freewill is not the same as being utterly unpredictable.

In the specific question about religion, then obviously we don't have a free choice. It's no use worshiping a god who just doesn't want to know you, and probably difficult to resist one who thinks you need their care and attention.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
Having freewill is not the same as being utterly unpredictable.
I like this sentence above - because a person can not be utterly predictable and then claim that as free will either.

The turning point for me is in Bible prophesy which declares from ancient times the realities of today, including the predictions (prophesies) which I find to be conclusive and undeniable.

As in this one linked here = "The United States & Britain in Prophesy."
http://herbert-w-armstrong.com/books/UNITEDST/usbchptr9.html
Of course anyone can deny anything, and that is very often the dividing line between having self determination instead of having no free will and no real choice.
 

convinced_friend

Liberal Quaker
I think people do have free-will, although belief that God is sovereign makes some sort of predestination/determinism impossible to avoid. The question is, how far does predestination go?

I've changed beliefs a couple times over the course of my life, and even tried to reject religion completely, but I kept being drawn back to Quakerism.
I remember a few years back, reading a theory that some people's brains are just hard-wired to believe, and those people basically can't just decide not to believe (they are not the only ones who can believe, but they are the only ones who can't not believe). -I have concluded, after my repeated unsuccessful attempts to reject religion, that I am one of those people. (don't get me wrong, I like believing, but sometimes I get tired of a lot of what's done in the name of religion).

Now what does this have to do with the topic of this post? This: I believe that this hard-wiring of people's brains to believe is what Paul meant when he taught that some people are predestined to believe. (Muhammad taught that too).
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Do we get a choice, ultimately, on which deity we serve and where we are to spend forever or are we moved by the deity which chooses us? Then, are we all yet moved by G-D?

While I currently believe we have a window of choice, I do not believe in free will. My destinyis, I believe, mostly is predetermined, although I might be able to choose against it. Then, I sincerely doubt this lately. Everything in me and my life is against fighting that current.
People normally don't have free will they just do satans bidding, now if they were a god that wouldn't happen.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
I think people do have free-will, although belief that God is sovereign makes some sort of predestination/determinism impossible to avoid. The question is, how far does predestination go?
To followup on what I already commented:

It is the opposite - in that the lack of faith and the lack of belief in God is what damns each person to their predetermined destination.

It is like I have a young child who wants to use illegal drugs (wants to sin) and so I tell my child the future (I prophesy) that the drug use will destroy their life, that they will waste their money and loose every chance at love and they will get in trouble with the Police and the drugs will send them to an early death and grave.

The only thing my child can do to change that predestination prophesy is if they repent and stop doing wrong and start doing right and THEN after they repent their life becomes unpredictable as it opens up into a defferent kind of world and a different kind of life.

See - I do not make the negative prophesy happen to my child, and neither does God make the negative prophesy happen to humanity, and yet our sinful fate is doomed with no way to change or to choose otherwise until we choose to REPENT of our sin(s) because that opens the door out of our predestination.

Therefore there is no true choice out of our predestined lifelong doom, until we literally and correctly repent and escape from it.

I've changed beliefs a couple times over the course of my life, and even tried to reject religion completely, but I kept being drawn back to Quakerism.
I too attend with the RSoF, under the BYM. :D

I remember a few years back, reading a theory that some people's brains are just hard-wired to believe, and those people basically can't just decide not to believe (they are not the only ones who can believe, but they are the only ones who can't not believe). -I have concluded, after my repeated unsuccessful attempts to reject religion, that I am one of those people. (don't get me wrong, I like believing, but sometimes I get tired of a lot of what's done in the name of religion).
I agree that some people are destined to believe just as some are destined NOT to believe, but both still do have the option of repentance and to chang their destiny.

One would think that a believer is thereby superior to the unbeliever but I find that to NOT be accurate.

To believe is not enough, while not believing does not condemn the person.

Long ago I use to believe in God but now I know about the reality of God and it is no longer a belief, and there is a very vast difference between knowing and in believing.

Belief is for the immature and for those who do not seek after the truth, while knowing is a maturity based on hard and determined research and experience.

As such both the believer and the non believer still have to repent, or else they are each still trapped in their sins and still predestined to their same prescribed destiny.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
People normally don't have free will they just do satans bidding, now if they were a god that wouldn't happen.
My understanding is that all people are children of God, and that makes each person into a type of God or demiGod, or as some same - there is "that of God" in every person.

The problem is that people do not know what we really are, and people do not understand what we really are, and so people act like fools and wallow in sin instead of embracing the truth and rising to our better nature and claim our rightful inheritance.

As such each person could have a free will but they do not, and blame it on following Satan's bidding is okay by me, and yet I would say that the worst demons lay inside of the cold heart of each person.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I might add that having the ability to make rational choices is no the same as actually doing it! Thomas Aquinas made that point, observing that most of the time we operate on a mixture of instinct and habit.
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
I might add that having the ability to make rational choices is no the same as actually doing it! Thomas Aquinas made that point, observing that most of the time we operate on a mixture of instinct and habit.
I like that but I take it much farther.

People like to establish the point of first choice which set the direction, as like the first cigarette or the first drink or the first sin, etc etc etc, as the first start to the lifelong doom.

But I say that before the baby is born it is originally doomed but it is NOT the original sin being passed along. The new baby is born into a sinful world so the baby's parents and the society wherever it is born into is already starting to brainwash the person (the baby) into its own destruction, and that process is already ongoing before any person is born.

As such every person on the entire planet earth has the need to repent of the sins for which we are born into.

Babies are born innocent and the poison is taught to each baby ASAP.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do we get a choice, ultimately, on which deity we serve and where we are to spend forever or are we moved by the deity which chooses us? Then, are we all yet moved by G-D?

While I currently believe we have a window of choice, I do not believe in free will. My destinyis, I believe, mostly is predetermined, although I might be able to choose against it. Then, I sincerely doubt this lately. Everything in me and my life is against fighting that current.
I believe the Bible clearly teaches we have the gift of choosing our god, but the true God will hold us accountable for our choice. (Joshua 24:15, Revelation 22:17, Deuteronomy 30:19)
 
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