Detroit police chief says armed citizens deter crime

[Revoltingest]

Spotted this on BBC Ceefax and thought of this thread...
BBC News - Florida man shot dead in cinema texting row
The world needs less guns, preferably no guns, definitely not more...

Your article makes a case for cops being unarmed.

 

[Alceste]

Your article makes a case for cops being unarmed.

Even ex-cops who retired twenty years ago, like the murderer in the article?

 

[Apex]

Even ex-cops who retired twenty years ago, like the murderer in the article?

When you spend a career in a profession that teaches you to shoot first, shoot some more, shoot later, and when everyone is dead try and cover it up and give the shooter (police officer) some mandatory paid administrative leave (i.e. paid vacation), what do you expect?

Our cop problem though is a completely different issue than gun control. And last time I checked, movie theaters are "gun free" zones, did that change?

 

[Revoltingest]

When you spend a career in a profession that teaches you to shoot first, shoot some more, shoot later, and when everyone is dead try and cover it up and give the shooter (police officer) some mandatory paid administrative leave (i.e. paid vacation), what do you expect?

Our cop problem though is a completely different issue than gun control. And last time I checked, movie theaters are "gun free" zones, did that change?

That might vary from state to state.

 

[Apex]

That might vary from state to state.

Possibly. Although I thought all major theater companies banned them regardless of local laws.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Possibly. Although I thought all major theater companies banned them regardless of local laws.

That is a joke unless they use metal detectors.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When you spend a career in a profession that teaches you to shoot first, shoot some more, shoot later, and when everyone is dead try and cover it up and give the shooter (police officer) some mandatory paid administrative leave (i.e. paid vacation), what do you expect?

You know, considering how you guys react when someone suggests that gun owners are mindless thugs, you seem surprisingly quick to tar others with that brush.

How much training in non-violent de-escalation does the average cop have relative to the average CCW/CPL holder?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is a joke unless they use metal detectors.

So much for CCW holders being law-abiding citizens, eh?

 

[dust1n]

Yet there is.

What really scares criminals: Armed citizens - National self-defense | Examiner.com

Professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi surveyed 2,000 felons incarcerated in state prisons across the United States.

Wright and Rossi reported that 34% of the felons said they personally had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”; 69% said that they knew at least one other criminal who had also; 34% said that when thinking about committing a crime they either “often” or “regularly” worried that they “[m]ight get shot at by the victim”; and 57% agreed with the statement, “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.”

James D. Wright & Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms [1986]. See Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda? by Don B. Kates, et. al. Originally published as 61 Tenn. L. Rev. 513-596 [1994].

None of that supports your claim that "honest citizens having the right to be armed deters criminals from victimiziting." What you have instead provided me is a questionnaire for criminals as to how "worried" they are about people having guns. That doesn't speak to crime rates, nor does it even speak to detering anything.

 

[Alceste]

When you spend a career in a profession that teaches you to shoot first, shoot some more, shoot later, and when everyone is dead try and cover it up and give the shooter (police officer) some mandatory paid administrative leave (i.e. paid vacation), what do you expect?

Our cop problem though is a completely different issue than gun control. And last time I checked, movie theaters are "gun free" zones, did that change?

Really? There are parts of the US where freedom is banned?

 

[Apex]

You know, considering how you guys react when someone suggests that gun owners are mindless thugs, you seem surprisingly quick to tar others with that brush.

How much training in non-violent de-escalation does the average cop have relative to the average CCW/CPL holder?

The blatant disregard for people's rights shown by cops, and their seemingly being above the law, tends to get on my nerves. And from the way things look right now, I would say cops receive zero de-escalation training.

 

[Apex]

Really? There are parts of the US where freedom is banned?

They are private entities.

 

[yoda89]

Really? There are parts of the US where freedom is banned?

Well that really depends on your definition of freedom. Arguably in places such as Canada you compromise your freedoms. Whether you agree with it by giving up your rights so others do not have the ability to have their rights. Stop me if I am wrong when I say that you gave up your right to hold a gun. I don't
mean culinary tool. Defining something as powerful as a gun and using it as lightly as a culinary tool is foolish. Guns are powerful and those who use them responsibly as you intend to do understand that.

I would like to point something out that you may wish to review. We live in two different countries. We live right against each other yet we were born of different peril. Ours through revolution and struggle free from the common wealth that once demanded obedience. Yours still of the common wealth. I am not honestly trying to offend you. However, our country and mentality was born of fire and yours of lengthened negotiation. I ask you to review it as an American. As I wish to view it through your eyes as best I can. Not, all Americans are "gangbangers". To say we are all the same especially in a country so multicultural so complex is a total collapse of self thought.

So I ask you not to judge. Yet, to resolute as I do with many of the issues that you hold personal in your country. I also hold those close in my country. Seek resolutions. Opinions are a dime a dozen. Solutions change the world.

You wish for someone from America to say more guns equal more gun deaths. Yes because of ignorance. Anyone raised around guns or even shoots them every holiday for fun knows the dangers. I'm completely biased as I am from American and I like having guns. However, to give up any right because you believe it will make a problem go away seems a cop out.

This is part of a bigger issue. We have discussed as mentality and rightfully so. So
imagine the United States of America. (I say United States because America has a north, south and is comprised of two continents.) Suddenly backs on its mentality. Deactivates all carriers and bases throughout the world. Where does that leave Canada?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The blatant disregard for people's rights shown by cops, and their seemingly being above the law, tends to get on my nerves.

Again with the broad brush.

And from the way things look right now, I would say cops receive zero de-escalation training.

I think we both know that's false.

How much de-escalation training are CCW holders required to have?

 

[yoda89]

You know, considering how you guys react when someone suggests that gun owners are mindless thugs, you seem surprisingly quick to tar others with that brush.

Your intelligent or your crazy one of the two reasons we are on this forum. I'm guessing since your avatar is giant pickle and mine is a tiny alien we are in the same boat. Guns are guns they are the common factor is this problem. Now the variable is the person. The education and mainly the ego.

However, we do no ignore the reality that guns exist so that we can live in a bubble proof environment. They are here and have been for centuries. There are more powerful weapons around. I know that anyone can own gun if they really want to. Hell, people sacrifice themselves in English Train stations and fly jets into American building for their beliefs. Who needs a gun when you can google how to build C4. You expect that religious fanatics or any criminal is going to respect laws? Yet, you demand by taking away my ability to use one responsibly will solve problems. Tell me if the United States goes down hill...how soon will you be speaking Chinese before they ask you to.

How much training in non-violent de-escalation does the average cop have relative to the average CCW/CPL holder?

Depends on the place. Yet I'm surprised in Canada you actually were sat down and know gun safety. Are pictures of the smaller less powerful ones pornographic in your culture? Do you know what Nuclear Weapons are? Those will really make you **** in your pants and sing Kumbaya faster at campfires.

 

[Apex]

Again with the broad brush.

Perhaps. But this is a very big issue here in the US. Much bigger than our gun control.

I think we both know that's false.

Actually, it may not be far from the truth. I know some police receive this training. But I honestly have never really heard if it is common training among your every-day street cop.

How much de-escalation training are CCW holders required to have?

Don't know. Would have to look up each individual state's laws on the issue.

 

[yoda89]

Again with the broad brush.

I think its hilarious how you believe everything will go away when others don't have guns. Before guns everyone was still killing others with swords. Before swords everyone was killing each other with blunt objects. Yet, militaries have vast amounts of them. So basically give every freedom you have in a blink. People cannot be so daft can they? Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. If you have objections give me solutions don't give me excuses and close your eyes.

 

[dawny0826]

None of that supports your claim that "honest citizens having the right to be armed deters criminals from victimiziting." What you have instead provided me is a questionnaire for criminals as to how "worried" they are about people having guns. That doesn't speak to crime rates, nor does it even speak to detering anything.

Sure it does, when statistics suggest that "victims" who own guns can thwart crime by 70%-80%, through brandishment of their weapons.

Defensive gun use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps. But this is a very big issue here in the US. Much bigger than our gun control.

Firearm deaths per year in your country are only slightly less than auto collision deaths per year. You really think that police abuses of power are a "much bigger" issue than gun control?

Actually, it may not be far from the truth. I know some police receive this training. But I honestly have never really heard if it is common training among your every-day street cop.

De-escalation techniques are part of the standard training for front-line officers here. I would be very surprised if they weren't part of American training.

Don't know. Would have to look up each individual state's laws on the issue.

Since we're talking about Detroit, how about Michigan?

Here are the requirements of the 8-hour pistol safety course for a Michigan CPL:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mcoles/CCWSuccCompletion_253744_7.pdf
https://www.michigan.gov/mcoles/0,4607,7-229--148860--,00.html

While the required curriculum includes "avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation", it's only one of several topics, and the entire classroom component is only 5 hours. How much do you think is spent on de-escalation or alternatives to lethal force?

Look... the point I'm getting at is this: if you are so quick to mistrust the police, why would you place so much trust in individual firearm owners, who have much less training and oversight?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think its hilarious how you believe everything will go away when others don't have guns.

And I think it's hilarious that you think this is what I believe.