Devas: Roles in your practice

[Unveiled Artist]

I like to study; and, have been studying my whole life. So, that's part of my faith. I was reading recently in the book our master gave us when we took the refuges. After taking the refuges, we also vow that we do not respect or practice what is taught by Devas, Spirits, or Demons. We don't respect a practice externalist faiths or heterodox beliefs. We do not respect or associate with evil friends and wicked crowds. It's somewhat of a harsh translation from Vietnamese.

I looked it up already and it said Devas are divine beings, some sites mention them as gods. The Lotus Sutra mentions them as the same level as human beings who come to hear The Dhamma from The Buddha while I haven't yet understood the role of Devas in the Pali suttas yet.

Are you familiar with the refuge in Zen Vietnamese Buddhism about not practicing what is taught by the Devas?

Do Devas teach anything and if they do, what teachings do they give that contradict the Dhamma of The Buddha himself?​

I'm not just a meditator but I go all out so this will be and is my life not something I study externally. Do you have some insight on how Devas can hinder our practice in worship and meditation of the Dhamma and our spiritual growth as Buddhists?

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?​

 

[sayak83]

I like to study; and, have been studying my whole life. So, that's part of my faith. I was reading recently in the book our master gave us when we took the refuges. After taking the refuges, we also vow that we do not respect or practice what is taught by Devas, Spirits, or Demons. We don't respect a practice externalist faiths or heterodox beliefs. We do not respect or associate with evil friends and wicked crowds. It's somewhat of a harsh translation from Vietnamese.

I looked it up already and it said Devas are divine beings, some sites mention them as gods. The Lotus Sutra mentions them as the same level as human beings who come to hear The Dhamma from The Buddha while I haven't yet understood the role of Devas in the Pali suttas yet.

Are you familiar with the refuge in Zen Vietnamese Buddhism about not practicing what is taught by the Devas?

Do Devas teach anything and if they do, what teachings do they give that contradict the Dhamma of The Buddha himself?​

I'm not just a meditator but I go all out so this will be and is my life not something I study externally. Do you have some insight on how Devas can hinder our practice in worship and meditation of the Dhamma and our spiritual growth as Buddhists?

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?​

Just so you know, if you read Buddha's writings, you will find that he had good relations with Hindu devas. He decided to teach about his enlightenment at the request of Brahma.
I mostly worship the Goddess (Devi) and Saraswati (goddess of learning). I personally consider all Hindu gods and goddesses as aspects of Brahman. In Hinduism devas are benevolent powers only and one cannot really go wrong in choosing to focus on any of them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just so you know, if you read Buddha's writings, you will find that he had good relations with Hindu devas. He decided to teach about his enlightenment at the request of Brahma.
I mostly worship the Goddess (Devi) and Saraswati (goddess of learning). I personally consider all Hindu gods and goddesses as aspects of Brahman. In Hinduism devas are benevolent powers only and one cannot really go wrong in choosing to focus on any of them.

Hmm. I looked up Brahma (I keep getting them confused Brahman, Brahmans, Brahma) when fussing with Bahai on the other thread. I understand Brahman to an extent but not Brahma. In the Buddhist suttas, it mentions Brahma disguised himself as Mara, a god and incarnation of Brahma to trick The Buddha into thinking things were permanent and eternal. The Buddha caught him to the punch and mentioned everything changed or was impermanent. I'd have to re-read how The Buddha won the discussion; and, he did.

It is true, he did have good relations with the Devas. I only saw that in the Mahayana texts. For some reason, he opposed Brahma as a creator since things aren't created but change form and go in a cycle hence rebirth.

A lot of Mahayana Buddhist worship the Bodhisattvas (Theravada, I read, worship Maitreya though). I saw statues of Bodhisattvas in some temples and lights and incense given to each other them or as a group. I'm still learning the connection between Bodhisattvas and cultivating our minds. I asked our master before taking the refuges but if I can go to Dhamma talk next week Wednesday (Weekly), I'll try to ask.

I keep getting the impression The Buddha didn't take kind of Hinduism. He was more against the ascetic practices the Brahmans and lay followers practiced. I don't know if it was specifically Hinduism, the worship of god god(s) themselves. At least in the manner that he mentions them but never refutes their existence.

Had to edit There we go. I hope I got Brahman, Brahman, and Brahma correct.

 

[sayak83]

Hmm. I looked up Brahma (I keep getting them confused Brahman, Brahmans, Brahma) when fussing with Bahai on the other thread. I understand Brahman to an extent but not Brahma. In the Buddhist suttas, it mentions Brahma disguised himself as Mara, a god and incarnation of Brahma to trick The Buddha into thinking things were permanent and eternal. The Buddha caught him to the punch and mentioned everything changed or was impermanent. I'd have to re-read how The Buddha won the discussion; and, he did.

It is true, he did have good relations with the Devas. I only saw that in the Mahayana texts. For some reason, he opposed Brahma as a creator since things aren't created but change form and go in a cycle hence rebirth.

A lot of Mahayana Buddhist worship the Bodhisattvas (Theravada, I read, worship Maitreya though). I saw statues of Bodhisattvas in some temples and lights and incense given to each other them or as a group. I'm still learning the connection between Bodhisattvas and cultivating our minds. I asked our master before taking the refuges but if I can go to Dhamma talk next week Wednesday (Weekly), I'll try to ask.

I keep getting the impression The Buddha didn't take kind of Hinduism. He was more against the ascetic practices the Brahmans and lay followers practiced. I don't know if it was specifically Hinduism, the worship of god god(s) themselves. At least in the manner that he mentions them but never refutes their existence.

Had to edit There we go. I hope I got Brahman, Brahman, and Brahma correct.

That would be baka-brahma that is the false-brahma. The Hindu brahma is cognate with Brahma Sahampati. Here,

Ayacana Sutta: The Request

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That would be baka-brahma that is the false-brahma. The Hindu brahma is cognate with Brahma Sahampati. Here,

Ayacana Sutta: The Request

Nice suttas. So that would mean Baka-brahma is the one The Buddha is refuting and Brahma Sahampati who begged The Buddha the Dhamma in the Ayacana sutta relates to the god in Hinduism? (If I said that right at all)

 

[sayak83]

Nice suttas. So that would mean Baka-brahma is the one The Buddha is refuting and Brahma Sahampati who begged The Buddha the Dhamma in the Ayacana sutta relates to the god in Hinduism? (If I said that right at all)

Brahma Sahampati would be the Buddhist take on Hindu God, yes.
Baka Brahma is more like how fundamentalists think of the Abrahamic God. Take a look

Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Brahma Sahampati would be the Buddhist take on Hindu God, yes.
Baka Brahma is more like how fundamentalists think of the Abrahamic God. Take a look

Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation

I'd have to read this when I'm a bit more awake. It's interesting, though, I read a long while back that The Buddha did not elevate himself higher than other people in his authority just his role of enlightenment. What I read so far, the power he has and disappearing and so forth makes it seem that enlightenment gave him more than just knowledge but the ability to do things other humans cannot do.

Buddhism isn't really a study-the-book faith; but, do you have an idea of the literal nature of The Buddha's power? A lot of Buddhist cosmology and stories remind me of what I read from Hindu DIRs. It's kind of confusing especially when The Buddha doesn't believe in a creator-god especially that defined by abrahamic religions.

 

[sayak83]

I'd have to read this when I'm a bit more awake. It's interesting, though, I read a long while back that The Buddha did not elevate himself higher than other people in his authority just his role of enlightenment. What I read so far, the power he has and disappearing and so forth makes it seem that enlightenment gave him more than just knowledge but the ability to do things other humans cannot do.

Buddhism isn't really a study-the-book faith; but, do you have an idea of the literal nature of The Buddha's power? A lot of Buddhist cosmology and stories remind me of what I read from Hindu DIRs. It's kind of confusing especially when The Buddha doesn't believe in a creator-god especially that defined by abrahamic religions.

I am skeptical of anything I have not personally experienced or tested carefully. As is the wont of Hindus, I take what I find suitable for my own personal practice and current understanding and leave the rest. Just because a restaurant has 500 types of dishes does not mean one has to order all of them and eat them all at once. That would send one to the hospital . Here too the case is similar...though mental hospital will be the likely address.

 

[Terese]

I like to study; and, have been studying my whole life. So, that's part of my faith. I was reading recently in the book our master gave us when we took the refuges. After taking the refuges, we also vow that we do not respect or practice what is taught by Devas, Spirits, or Demons. We don't respect a practice externalist faiths or heterodox beliefs. We do not respect or associate with evil friends and wicked crowds. It's somewhat of a harsh translation from Vietnamese.

I looked it up already and it said Devas are divine beings, some sites mention them as gods. The Lotus Sutra mentions them as the same level as human beings who come to hear The Dhamma from The Buddha while I haven't yet understood the role of Devas in the Pali suttas yet.

Are you familiar with the refuge in Zen Vietnamese Buddhism about not practicing what is taught by the Devas?

Do Devas teach anything and if they do, what teachings do they give that contradict the Dhamma of The Buddha himself?​

I'm not just a meditator but I go all out so this will be and is my life not something I study externally. Do you have some insight on how Devas can hinder our practice in worship and meditation of the Dhamma and our spiritual growth as Buddhists?

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?​

Devas are not human in Hinduism, and can grant temporary boons to anyone, but only for that. They are not generally for dharma and spiritual growth, as even they can fall into the mode of ignorance, tamas, such as Indra's fits of egoism. The Lord shows his mercy by helping them see there errors; the Buddha is one such avatara. Lord Brahma and Lord Siva, the two most powerful devas can and do teach, at the behest of the Supreme.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am skeptical of anything I have not personally experienced or tested carefully. As is the wont of Hindus, I take what I find suitable for my own personal practice and current understanding and leave the rest. Just because a restaurant has 500 types of dishes does not mean one has to order all of them and eat them all at once. That would send one to the hospital . Here too the case is similar...though mental hospital will be the likely address.

Good point. From what I practiced so far, I did not feel a pull to an internal power The Buddha has but the Sangha does have a magnetism that pulls you to the statue of The Buddha. I love telling my experiences. It's apart of my nature and culture. I remember meditating or reflecting and thought, since I'm a teacher, and The Buddha is a teacher, who better to learn how to teach but from him. Then it made reverence and study more intimate because I can apply it to my everyday life, passion, and not just sitting on the cushion with mystical thoughts. I'm looking forward to more of those eureka moments. Growing up we didn't do a lot of thanking and gratitude was near but none. Another lesson worth learning from The Buddha (which, in the Sangha, we were told and read in the books they gave, saying from The Buddha is another way of saying from ourselves.) It's really beautiful.

It's really learning to trust your experiences. Once you have the experience, you don't look to the book as authority. When you don't have the experience, you try to find the authority in a book (hence abrahamic view). A lot of reflection.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Devas are not human in Hinduism, and can grant temporary boons to anyone, but only for that. They are not generally for dharma and spiritual growth, as even they can fall into the mode of ignorance, tamas, such as Indra's fits of egoism. The Lord shows his mercy by helping them see there errors; the Buddha is one such avatara. Lord Brahma and Lord Siva, the two most powerful devas can and do teach, at the behest of the Supreme.

Hmm. I think @RoaringSilence said that Buddhist help all beings included Devas. More specifically bodisattvas, rather. That could be why. Since Devas aren't gods. In the Lotus Sutra, they hear the law just as humans, demons, and can't think of the other. Of course, the rest is all Hinduism. I learned something new nonetheless.

 

[Terese]

Hmm. I think @RoaringSilence said that Buddhist help all beings included Devas. More specifically bodisattvas, rather. That could be why. Since Devas aren't gods. In the Lotus Sutra, they hear the law just as humans, demons, and can't think of the other. Of course, the rest is all Hinduism. I learned something new nonetheless.

And i learned something of Buddhism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Devas are not human in Hinduism, and can grant temporary boons to anyone, but only for that. They are not generally for dharma and spiritual growth, as even they can fall into the mode of ignorance, tamas, such as Indra's fits of egoism. The Lord shows his mercy by helping them see there errors; the Buddha is one such avatara. Lord Brahma and Lord Siva, the two most powerful devas can and do teach, at the behest of the Supreme.

In Hinduism, even though you can receive temporary boons from the Devas, your blessings and all the above comes from god (in the general sense of the term)?

 

[Terese]

In Hinduism, even though you can receive temporary booms from the Devas, your blessings and all the above comes from god (in the general sense of the term)?

God, the Supreme, Saguna Brahman, which means Brahman with qualities. Lord Siva for Saivites, Lord Visnu/Krsna/Rama for Vaisnavas, and Shakti for Shaktas Simply worshipping the Supreme Lord Krsna, one worships all the devas, just as by watering the root of a tree one waters all the leaves and branches

So not just boons, but all things, come from the Supreme

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And i learned something of Buddhism.

God, the Supreme, Saguna Brahman, which means Brahman with qualities. Lord Siva for Saivites, Lord Visnu/Krsna/Rama for Vaisnavas, and Shakti for Shaktas Simply worshipping the Supreme Lord Krsna, one worships all the devas, just as by watering the root of a tree one waters all the leaves and branches

So not just boons, but all things, come from the Supreme

Hmm. That's like when we ask The Buddha for blessings, we get blessings not only from The Buddha but from the bodhisattvas too. Even the monks give practitioners blessings. When I visit the monastery, they said they'll give me a blessed Buddha statue for my altar. I see it as a family that blesses each other regardless if they are bodhisattvas, people, or enlightened ones-or in your view gods or devas.

Interesting.

 

[sayak83]

In Hinduism, even though you can receive temporary boons from the Devas, your blessings and all the above comes from god (in the general sense of the term)?

Or the Self itself. Remember in upanisadic Hinduism Atman is also Brahman.

But you should focus on Buddhism. It's complex enough without muddling it further with various concepts of Hinduism. "too many saints spoil the sangha" - actual Hindu saying.

 

[LuisDantas]

God, the Supreme, Saguna Brahman, which means Brahman with qualities. Lord Siva for Saivites, Lord Visnu/Krsna/Rama for Vaisnavas, and Shakti for Shaktas Simply worshipping the Supreme Lord Krsna, one worships all the devas, just as by watering the root of a tree one waters all the leaves and branches

So not just boons, but all things, come from the Supreme

I have heard of Nirguna Brahman as well - Brahman without (or is it perhaps better said as beyond?) attributes.

The idea seems to be that Brahman is, among other things, supreme transcendence. And as such, it can't be captured in humanly conceivable qualities, and therefore exists as Nirguna Brahman. All the same, it is certainly not a stranger to the existence where attributes (qualities) exist either, and therefore manifests and can be conceived of as Brahman with attributes, Saguna Brahman.

Does that sound somewhat accurate?

Hmm. That's like when we ask The Buddha for blessings, we get blessings not only from The Buddha but from the bodhisattvas too. Even the monks give practitioners blessings. When I visit the monastery, they said they'll give me a blessed Buddha statue for my altar. I see it as a family that blesses each other regardless if they are bodhisattvas, people, or enlightened ones-or in your view gods or devas.

Interesting.

A network of blessings of sorts, free of worries about hierarchies of power or supremacy? That is a nice way of putting it!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Or the Self itself. Remember in upanisadic Hinduism Atman is also Brahman.

But you should focus on Buddhism. It's complex enough without muddling it further with various concepts of Hinduism. "too many saints spoil the sangha" - actual Hindu saying.

Yeah. Buddhism is complex. When I looked up Hinduism, I just threw my hands up. I always wondered how long converts take until they are comfortable in their faith as a Hindu. Must take awhile.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have heard of Nirguna Brahman as well - Brahman without (or is it perhaps better said as beyond?) attributes.

The idea seems to be that Brahman is, among other things, supreme transcendence. And as such, it can't be captured in humanly conceivable qualities, and therefore exists as Nirguna Brahman. All the same, it is certainly not a stranger to the existence where attributes (qualities) exist either, and therefore manifests and can be conceived of as Brahman with attributes, Saguna Brahman.

Does that sound somewhat accurate?



A network of blessings of sorts, free of worries about hierarchies of power or supremacy? That is a nice way of putting it!

Breathe of fresh air, aint it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?​

Carlita, the take on devas varies from school to school in Hinduism. In my school, they're seen as invisible helpers, totally real. So they are assistants to the Gods. Ganesha has a huge band of them that he can dispatch to do all the work He has to do. They come in varieties, and if the mystical ceremonies are done right, they can get assigned to individuals. Some are like nature spirits, while others are friends and family between births. Mystic seers have seen them in their ethereal forms.