Dharma and Black Magic

[dave_]

Abrahamic religions are strictly against black magic.Above other sins black magic is considired a more serious crime and punished more.If i remember correctly among sinners only atheists and black magicians were never to enter heaven and suffer eternally in hell.

By black magic i dont mean harmful magic (not necessarily ) but

-coming against natural laws , bending them in conformity with your will ,
-seperating individual existence from nature as described in modern occult schools.

If i am not wrong abrahamic religions and dharmic religions (even lhp dharma) has the same goal and it is being one with nature.

So are dharmic religions also against black magic?

 

[ametist]

The problem with belief in abrahamic god is that, you worship a god that is in your personal understanding and interpretation. You can never know if tyou are right on the spot on that belief of god. So each day a believer to abrahamic god should repent. Real difficult to do each day and start other day with full motivation in the same religion you dont even know you belong. In the same way, you can hardly know if you are involved in magic when you are using your will to your way.
Both of them are identifid as real big sins. Involvement in magic and not believing the one true god. So..from my understanding a believer is left with one issue only: solve your problem with hell.
The solution to the problem of hell comes when you accept you deserve that since there is nothing cruel with it. i.e. Revelation of love.
So perhaps now it is easy to relate it with dharmic understanding.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

the abrahamic God is a person deity, which describes many laws going against nature.
Magik can most easily be done with a
quiet mind: when the mind is calm a body exists in harmony with nature
& thus is one with nature.
If you are one with nature, you are Nature & so you can manifest your will into nature.

You can gain numerous magickal powers this way, but most people find something much greater along the way.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

There is a story about a Sadhu who was given offerings by a local child.
He offered his rosery and told him chanting will lead to liberation.

The boy turned it down and asked for something practical, he said that he knew sadhus had magical powers, so he demanded him to teach him

The Sadhu said; if you can silence your thoughts you can make things levitate.
So the kid quieted his mind then got his friends together to watch the trick.
It didn't work, so he went back cursing the Monk.
When he asked why it didn't work. The Sadhu said; your thinking about useing your power...

Which is why trance states are so useful(no thought) & why so many great spiritual masters never even think about performing some kind of miracle.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The Miracle of Psychic Power
"And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.

The Miracle of Telepathy
"And what is the miracle of telepathy? There is the case where a monk reads the minds, the mental events, the thoughts, the ponderings of other beings, other individuals, [saying,] 'Such is your thinking, here is where your thinking is, thus is your mind.'

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him reading the minds... of other beings... He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him reading the minds... of other beings...'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Manika charm by which the monk read the minds... of other beings...' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of telepathy, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of telepathy.

The Miracle of Instruction
"And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a monk gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that.' This, Kevatta, is called the miracle of instruction.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy and rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars and in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure.

"A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'

"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness.

"When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Consummate in his virtue, he guards the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness and alertness, and is content.

Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta

The ability to teach the (Buddhist) dharma is considered a miracle in and of itself, and is the only type of "magic" endorsed by the Buddha.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Abrahamic religions are strictly against black magic.Above other sins black magic is considered a more serious crime and punished more.If i remember correctly among sinners only atheists and black magicians were never to enter heaven and suffer eternally in hell. By black magic i don't mean harmful magic but
-coming against natural laws , bending them in conformity with your will,
-separating individual existence from nature as described in modern occult schools.

I can't speak for Jews and Muslims, but magic is not necessarily considered evil by Christians, although a lot of Protestants, especially in the USA, think so. But many Christians have practiced magic. The 19th century French magician Eliphas Levi was a practicing Catholic and even an ordained deacon, while the Order of the Golden Dawn included an Anglican priest.

As for the idea of eternal hell, that is dubious. In the Koran, it says that the wicked go to hell until the end of this world, unless God releases them earlier, and the sayings of Muhammad include a statement that hell is not eternal. In Christianity, St Isaac of Syria said that those in hell could still repent and go to heaven, and no-one denied his orthodoxy.

 

[Vinayaka]

So are dharmic religions also against black magic?

The version of Hinduism I practice wouldn't be against it, but we wouldn't practice it, as we'd see it as irrelevant, a side path so to speak.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Abrahamic religions are strictly against black magic.Above other sins black magic is considired a more serious crime and punished more.If i remember correctly among sinners only atheists and black magicians were never to enter heaven and suffer eternally in hell.

By black magic i dont mean harmful magic (not necessarily ) but

-coming against natural laws , bending them in conformity with your will ,
-seperating individual existence from nature as described in modern occult schools.

If i am not wrong abrahamic religions and dharmic religions (even lhp dharma) has the same goal and it is being one with nature.

So are dharmic religions also against black magic?

Depending on your definition of "black magic," I would say that some sects, like shrI vidyA, often consider it a form of tantrasAdhanA.

Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta

The ability to teach the (Buddhist) dharma is considered a miracle in and of itself, and is the only type of "magic" endorsed by the Buddha.

I'm pretty sure only sthaviravAda/theravAda bauddha-s accept such statements as being from the buddha, not all. Also keep in mind that the tipiTaka was compiled over 200 years after shAkyamuni's death.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Abrahamic religions are strictly against black magic.

I do not know what makes you say so. Did not Jesus push the swine (evil spirits) down the mountain? Do not Christians have exorcism? Did not Mohammad get affected by black magic that he forgot for six months whether he had sex or not? 'Dharma' is about conduct (in the family and in the society) and not about black magic.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm pretty sure only sthaviravAda/theravAda bauddha-s accept such statements as being from the buddha, not all. Also keep in mind that the tipiTaka was compiled over 200 years after shAkyamuni's death.

And this is relevant to my statement how?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

And this is relevant to my statement how?

You stated that spreading the "dhamma" was the only magic endorsed by the buddha and in order to prove your point, you bolded some random verses from the kevaTTasuttam about AdesanApATi (knowing another individuals emotions or thoughts) and iddhipATi (superhuman/psychic potency), neither of which are really "magic" per se. I was giving examples of how such a generalization can seem a bit falacious. The majority of bauddha-s do not accept the tipiTaka as authoritative, only theravAda/sthaviravAda bauddha- s do (although they do tend to be the most vocal). Also, since the tipiTaka was compiled so many years after shAkyamuni buddha's death, it's unlikely that all of the verses mentioned therein were actually stated by him. Some followers of tantrayAna/vajrayAna buddhism do engage in what if often referred to as "black magic" and I don't think they would accept the statement that buddha did not feel comfortable with magic or that a bhikkhu named kevaTTa existed.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

You stated that spreading the "dhamma" was the only magic endorsed by the buddha and in order to prove your point, you bolded some random verses from the kevaTTasuttam about AdesanApATi (knowing another individuals emotions or thoughts) and iddhipATi (superhuman/psychic potency), neither of which are really "magic" per se. I was giving examples of how such a generalization can seem a bit falacious. The majority of bauddha-s do not accept the tipiTaka as authoritative, only theravAda/sthaviravAda bauddha- s do (although they do tend to be the most vocal). Also, since the tipiTaka was compiled so many years after shAkyamuni buddha's death, it's unlikely that all of the verses mentioned therein were actually stated by him. Some followers of tantrayAna/vajrayAna buddhism do engage in what if often referred to as "black magic" and I don't think they would accept the statement that buddha did not feel comfortable with magic or that a bhikkhu named kevaTTa existed.

And there are some who believe Buddha was a reluctant prophet of Jehovah or worse yet an extraterrestrial or demon. Must I acknowledge every criticism that I consider invalid?

 

[Jainarayan]

Did not Jesus push the swine (evil spirits) down the mountain? Do not Christians have exorcism?

By the authority of, and sanctioned by God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But does that not prove the acceptance of evil spirits and black magic in Christianity? OP said something very different.

 

[Jainarayan]

But does that not prove the acceptance of evil spirits and black magic in Christianity? OP said something very different.

Evil spirits, yes. Christianity accepts personification of evil as demons, evil spirits. What I was saying is that Jesus casting out demons, and Christian exorcism isn't considered black magic. In fact, it's done for a beneficial purpose by the power of God. Now, "black magic" does exist and is often practiced by some syncretizing Christian sects, especially in the Caribbean and West African syncretized traditions.

There is something called brujería in Spanish, witchcraft. People cast spells to cause harm to others. My s-i-l, who is Puerto Rican fancied herself a bruja, a witch (I changed the first letter of the word to describe her otherwise ). It's taken very seriously and not to be trifled with, according to believers. I myself do not believe in such things and think it's silly.

 

[Denny Crane!]

I can't imagine Buddhism being to concerned with Black magic considering it doesn't exist. Its rules are based around what is harmful to yourself, pursuing metaphysical ideals rooted in beliefs that have no basis certainly won't help you along the path though.

 

[Benst]

I don't see why 'black magic' would strictly be offlimits in Dharmic faiths. Some of them, if I remember correctly just don't see it as being real. Mind you, magic is such a western term that has some parallels in other areas of the world, it's not exactly the same as tapas but it has a lot of similarities. I know in certain forms of Buddhism it's believed that monks gain supernatural powers from long experiences of meditation or attainment of enlightenment, but are generally discouraged from using them. In Burma there's stories of forest monks routinely being seen hovering about. I don't know if thats true, but it does make one wonder what the dividing line is between magic and supernatural. Then again, there's also examples of negetive supernatural powers being gained by individuals, I'm thinking of some Tibetan Bon masters who *are said* to gain esoteric powers, the first teacher of Milarepa comes to mind. All of these are within the scope of Buddhism though. I suppose it's hard sometimes in some religions to see a dividing line between what is religious ritual and what is magic.

But does that not prove the acceptance of evil spirits and black magic in Christianity? OP said something very different.

Black magic is seen as negetive, black magic being any form of magic that is negetive and against God's order (also deriving power from the devil). But this is only one form of magic, and in the medieval ages, not so much now in our very secular world, positive magic using nature intermixed with Christianity was tolerated and beyond the realms of the law. It's a complex OP because magic at times with Christianity and Judaism has shifted and changed as to what was acceptable when.

Evil spirits, yes. Christianity accepts personification of evil as demons, evil spirits. What I was saying is that Jesus casting out demons, and Christian exorcism isn't considered black magic. In fact, it's done for a beneficial purpose by the power of God. Now, "black magic" does exist and is often practiced by some syncretizing Christian sects, especially in the Caribbean and West African syncretized traditions.

Yes, absolutely, in the Bible Jesus isn't thought to be acting as a magician but instead harnessing his own divine power as the Son of God. There's also examples of magicians who use God's power and the natural world for their own ends, King Solomon for example. There is a whole branch of western Magic and Occultism that draws heavily from the Seals of Solomon and Jewish esotercism. There is a story that he managed to gain control of several Demons who then helped to build the Temple.

There is something called brujería in Spanish, witchcraft. People cast spells to cause harm to others. My s-i-l, who is Puerto Rican fancied herself a bruja, a witch (I changed the first letter of the word to describe her otherwise ). It's taken very seriously and not to be trifled with, according to believers. I myself do not believe in such things and think it's silly.

It's quite prevelent in Catholicism both in South America and in Europe. It's only really Protestant and North American countries that no longer have strong traditions. Even if it isn't actually real, the whole thing can be quite easily understood culturally and historically. People don't think of it but even things as simple as lucky charms or superstitions are a part of an old magical culture and can be quite easily understood sociologically.

 

[Benst]

I can't imagine Buddhism being to concerned with Black magic considering it doesn't exist. Its rules are based around what is harmful to yourself, pursuing metaphysical ideals rooted in beliefs that have no basis certainly won't help you along the path though.

On the contrary, it depends what form of Buddhism you're looking at. Certainly the more rationalist schools influenced by groups like the MahaBodhi Society or reform movements will just see it as non-existing and not even to worry about. More folk forms of Buddhism might regard it as very real, and practitioners of good or black magic might have a very strongly rooted Buddhist point of view of it. For example, in Burma the various attendees of the Nats, lesser spirits, who may practice black magic might suggest that their actions are fulfilling the dharma of the intended victim. They might also say that their practices serve an ultimately beneficial purpose because their intended victim might be aiding the degeneration of the Dhamma. etc,.

 

[Denny Crane!]

Well I mean people are free to believe in what they want but they begin to diverge from buddhism at that point. They are of course free to still call themselves such, indeed may still practice but without certain core aspects and thinking it isn't really buddhism.

I've lived in Thailand. It is buddhist, and I guess it really is in some ways...but mostly not it has become ancestor worship and luck and hope and prayer outside and sometimes even inside the temples.

 

[Benst]

Well I mean people are free to believe in what they want but they begin to diverge from buddhism at that point. They are of course free to still call themselves such, indeed may still practice but without certain core aspects and thinking it isn't really buddhism.

I've lived in Thailand. It is buddhist, and I guess it really is in some ways...but mostly not it has become ancestor worship and luck and hope and prayer outside and sometimes even inside the temples.

It's difficult in the modern age to say what exactly Buddhism is and isn't I would argue because the perception and conception of what constitutes Buddhism has been so influenced in the past 100 years by East-West contact. I mean if you spoke to people involved with say, the Dhammayutika or who follow in the footsteps of King ChulaLongKorn...or Mahasi Sayadaw in Burma... or Sri Lankan reformists like Anagarika Dharmapala and Walpola Rahula... they would say 'pure' Buddhism is devoid of ancestor worship, spirits like Nats and Devas, and anything else outside the philosophy.

It's one perspective, but like any religion (the other Indian religions included) there is a great deal of supernatural and esoteric beliefs involving what could be called magic that is within the scope of those religions, and which follows an underlying logic consistent with the main religion. Christian 'white magic' derives power from God where as 'black magic' comes from the devil, gaining tapas in Hinduism is by following religious ritual and practice, in Buddhism power comes from gaining spiritual knowledge or by harnessing and propitiating Devas and Bodhisattvas. So, really, although many of these beliefs probably originate prior to dharmic religions, they are now part of the system if you look very closely.

Likewise, a common folk idea that I've come across in my limited studying of magic and Buddhism is the idea that by practicing or being involved with magic and superstition, the person hopes to attain positive merit in order to have a better reincarnation. One thing I've come across is for farmers to routinely propitiate spirits of the rain inorder to have a good harvest, the rationale with that is that with a good harvest they might have a suplus of rice and will be able to easily give this rice to a Wat or monks on their rounds... thus gaining merit. The cycle continues as well because the spirit who was propitiated to bring just enough rain will also receive merit from the act of giving, thus the farmer gains 'double merit' because he was able to assist the spirit in inching closer to the goal of Nibbana. I'm not saying every farmer has this in mind, but i's a perfectly Buddhist rationale for spirit worship.

But, then again as you say Denny, eventually it gets to a point where it clearly is outside the scope of the religion and one can't even stretch to think of it as being within.