• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Dharmic Religions Only: Evolutionary Science and Hindu/Buddhist worldviews.

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
what I dont understand is that Evolution seems to work to a point then like dinosaurs , ...evolution fails them and they Die out , ..
Detailed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event#Major_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur#Extinction_of_major_groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous–Paleogene_extinction_event

"This suggests to some the possibility of near-simultaneous multiple impacts, perhaps from a fragmented asteroidal object, similar to the Shoemaker–Levy 9 impact with Jupiter. In addition to the 180 km (110 mi) Chicxulub Crater in Yucatan Peninsula, there is the 24 km (15 mi)Boltysh crater in Ukraine (65.17±0.64 Ma), the 20 km (12 mi) Silverpit crater in the North Sea (59.5±14.5 Ma) possibly formed by bolide impact, and the controversial and much larger 600 km (370 mi) Shiva crater. Any other craters that might have formed in the Tethys Ocean would have been obscured by tectonic events like the northward drift of Africa and India."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater

"The Deccan Traps are a large igneous province located on the Deccan Plateau of west-central India (between 17°–24°N, 73°–74°E) and one of the largest volcanic features on Earth. They consist of multiple layers of solidified flood basalt that together are more than 2,000 m (6,562 ft) thick, cover an area of 500,000 km2 (193,051 sq mi) and have a volume of 512,000 km3(123,000 cu mi)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Traps

"Hari Ichha"

1 & 2 Chicxulub Crater, 3 Deccan traps, India, 4 Major extinction events, 5 Shiva crater on Indian West Coast.
330px-Chicxulub-Anomaly.jpg
330px-Chicxulub_shockedquartz.png
clip_image003_thumb1.jpg
450px-Phanerozoic_biodiversity_blank_01.png
Shiva Crater.jpg
 
Last edited:

Kirran

Premium Member
Namaskaram Kirran ji ,

Namaskaram :)

what I dont understand is that Evolution seems to work to a point then like dinosaurs , ...evolution fails them and they Die out , ....

Fair enough, I'll answer as best I can.

Evolution isn't something that works for something or fails, it's not a conscious process, but an emergent process. So it isn't working for dinosaurs, and then failing them, it's what we label the processes we observe in the changes to their situation. There's a tendency among many people to see evolution as something special and complex, but really it's very simple. The same processes essentially apply to stars.

There are different types of stars, including red giants, white supergiants, red dwarfs, white dwarfs, etc.

Now, the white supergiant doesn't live very long (only a few billion years :)) while the dwarf stars last very long, up to 100 billion years or so. So naturally, over time, the proportion of the observed stars which are dwarf stars increases - the more stable, longer-lived entities persist better over time.

This is just the same process as happens with a lifeform - on average, the entity which is stable and longer-lived, better able to persist in the environment, is likely to become more numerous over time. Just the same as how the moth which better-camouflaged is less likely to be eaten, and so increases in numbers.

So the processes of evolution could be observed effecting dinosaurs, and then there was a meteor impact and they were killed off. The processes of evolution could be observed effecting dodos, then humans killed them all. Same thing happened 10 years ago the Baiji River Dolphin.

forgive me for answering you question to Kalyan , he too can answer it , I would be interested in his responce also , ...

actualy no , ...the reason I think is that his interest is in expounding upon the True nature of the ' life force ' , rather than the Receptical , ...after all one would not realy expect a Guru to take much interest in , or expend muuch time discussing the intracacies of Maya after all it is an illusion , that does not mean that illusion and reality are not intertwined , at least on a material level , ...but it is some what un important to the Spiritualy inclined .

I only asked because if his guru had made a statement on this then certainly we could not expect kalyan to change his view!

Thankyou for sharing your view! I think that makes sense, and I agree that it's the atman which is of relevance, not the receptacle - it's the receptacle which I see as subject to change over generations due to evolutionary processes, and that an understanding of these processes is useful for practical reasons, in terms of medicine, conservation, agriculture, even psychology and sociology etc, while not being of ultimate important by dint of occurring within maya.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Kirran, meteors or massive volcanism, eruptions like Santorini, Krakatoa, etc. and lava flows like Deccan Traps in India. These events have world-wide repercussions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_volcanic_eruptions#Explosive_eruptions
(Paraná and Etendeka Plateau, Uruguay-Paraguay, 132 million years ago, volume extruded 8600 cubic kilometers)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_volcanic_eruptions#Effusive_eruptions
(Deccan Traps, India, 65 million years ago, volume extruded 9300 cubic kilometers)
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Kirran, meteors or massive volcanism, eruptions like Santorini, Krakatoa, etc. and lava flows like Deccan Traps in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_volcanic_eruptions#Explosive_eruptions
(Paraná and Etendeka Plateau, Uruguay-Paraguay, 132 million years ago, volume extruded 8600 cubic kilometers)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_volcanic_eruptions#Effusive_eruptions
(Deccan Traps, India, 65 million years ago, volume extruded 9300 cubic kilometers)

Big stuff blowing up and causing a lot of extinctions, anyway.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I must say this is an absolutely amazing thread. Most of the debate has been so civilised, intelligent and educated. Boy I thought I knew Indian philosophy, but I am actually learning more about Indian philosophy from the members on this forum. It is threads like this that has made me happy to join this forum and spend time here.

I have read through a few pages, not all 14, so please excuse me if what I am saying has already been said I want this debate to continue and it is better it continues here than the thread I recently started. I just want to share some thought, again apologies if somebody has repeated it already. When I have time I will read all 14 pages.

On the epistemology of scripture

There do seem to be different views on the role of scripture in different Indian philosophical schools, however there is a general understanding that perception is the king --- the foundation of all knowledge. Why? That is because all other means of knowledge(pramana) rely on perception and perception in dharmic philosophy can be of three kinds 1)Sensory perception, which includes using extensions to the senses 2)Mental perception, which includes all possible mental states and 3) Yogic perception or ESP. So you can see perception in Indian thought covers all possible fields of science, physical science, phenomenology and parapsychology. This is why as a Hindu I reject the dogma against sciences other than physical science.

The other means of knowledge, inference is based on previous perception and is of three kinds too: 1) To reason from seen cause to seen effect, 2) to reason from seen effect to seen cause 3) and to reason from seen effect to unseen case(analogical reasoning) All other means of knowledge like comparison, presumption, absence and non perception are all forms of different kinds of inference and again based on perception. In different schools some subtle difference between different kinds of inference, lead them to separate them as different means of knowledge. The classical Samkhya view, however, there is only three.

The final means of knowledge is testimony and testimony is of two kinds 1)Expert testimony and 2)Ordinary testimony. Testimony is based on inference of word meaning from words and sentences, and word meaning in turn is based on perception of one self or others. In the case of scripture that is Yogic perception, perception of other worlds(lokas) of ghosts and spirits(sukshama sharaia) of gods and angels(devas) and of God(Brahman) This can be accepted on faith alone and there are many Hindus that do. I was told by the guru at my ashram to "have faith" everytime I raised a doubt(another reason why I left) However, this is definitely not the classical view in Indian philosophy. If faith was enough, there would be no Indian philosophy, it would be theology. Everybody felt, including Shankara, that scripture had to be demonstrated through reason. I emphasis Shankara, because in Vedanta scripture is considered the highest means of knowledge, because Brahman cannot be known through perception and inference, you can only be told of Brahman's existence from a Brahma rishi who has directly perceived themselves Brahman(anubhava). However, Shankara still went to exhausting lengths to cogently demonstrate everything Vedanta says with reason. This is why it is philosophy and not theology.

Therefore, if scripture does indeed contradict both reason and perception, it is to be rejected. This is a classical view of all Dharmic religions. It is not shared by Abrahamic religions.

I will comment next on the epistemology of science.
 
Last edited:

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I'm not sure if you would consider our school (Brahma-Madhava Sampradaya) to be classical, but our epistemology is as follows (basically what you are saying with some differences). I'l quote directly from Baladeva Vidhyabhusana's Premya Ratnavali (where he summarizes Madhavacharya's philosophy):


"Direct Perception, logic and Vedic revelation are three sources of actual knowledge. This is described in the Shrimad-Bhagavatam (11.16.17): "The Four Vedas, direct perception, the Puranas and Vedic histories, as well as logic are four sources of actual knowledge.Direct perception and logic are actual sources of knowledge when they confirm the authoritative statements found in Vedic revelation. Only foolish persons bewildered by the illusory material energy of the Lord accept the misleading evidence of direct sensory perception. Logic and mental speculation are inconclusive and unreliable sources of knowledge. They may be compared to the forest fire on top of a hill which has just been extinguished by showers of rain, and thus yields no light, but only a great quantity of smoke. Intelligent persons to not therefore consider logic and sensory perception to be independent and infallible sources of knowledge, but rather they are dependent assistants to the principal source of knowledge: the Vedic revelation.When logic confirms the Vedic revelation, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.The proper use of logic is described by Yajnavalkya Muni in the Brihad-aranyaka Upanishad (4.5.6): "O Maitreyi, one should directly perceive the supreme Personality of Godhead by hearing about Him from a bona-fide spiritual master. In this way one con properly understand His position, and constantly meditate upon Him." Logic which has no foundation in scriptural revelation is described in the Katha Upanishad (1.2.9): "My dear Naciketa, simply by logic one will never be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but only by the descriptions of a realized spiritual master."The Smriti-shastra confirms: "One should reject the dry logic that considers: 'How important is it that one's reasoning follow the conclusion previously described in Vedic revelation? It cannot be very important.' Such logic leads one to the process known as speculative guessing." The Supreme Personality of Godhead is described in the statements of the Upanishads, and for this reason Vedic revelation is the best of all sources of knowledge. They who spurn the Vedic revelation do not have the power to properly understand the Supreme. This conclusion is confirmed in the Vedas:

"One ignorant of Vedic knowledge cannot actually understand the Supreme." (Shruti-shastra)

"Please tell me about the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is revealed in the Upanishads." (Brihad-aranyaka 3.9.26)"

He also writes in a similiar way in His Vedanta Syamantaka:

"Sense perception can perceive only what is nearby and gross. It cannot perceive things very near or very far away. For example, the eyes have only limited power to see a bird flying in the sky. Neither can the eyes see the mascara with which they are decorated. Even gross things, when they are present in the mind, cannot be seen with the external senses. Therefore one may say, ‘With my eyes I cannot see the thoughts of my mind’. Sense perception cannot perceive things that are hidden or eclipsed or overpowered by other things, or invisible, or the original ingredients of a blend. In this way with the eyes one cannot see the stars in the daytime for they are overpowered by the sunshine. Nor can one see milk’s potential to become yoghurt. Nor can one see the clouds raining on the middle of the ocean. Nor one can see the atom.The senses sometimes fail to see even what is very close. For example, it may be said, ‘With his unaided eyes Yajnadatta cannot see that his head was shaved by the trick of a magician with mystic powers.’ Even when it cannot be seen directly by the senses, the truth can often be inferred from certain symptoms. This is the use of logic. In this way when one sees smoke on a mountain one may infer the existence of a fire, and when that smoke is followed by a rainfall, one may infer that the rain extinguished the fire.When sense perception and logic both fail, other tools may be used to know the truth. In some situation the nature of the words themselves reveals the truth. Thus the mountains named Himalaya reveal by their name that snow (hima) is present on them. Also, the word ‘ratnalaya’ (storehouse of jewels) implies that jewels are present at such a place. Also, the jewel Suryakanta tells us by its name that it bursts into flames when exposed to sunlight. The evidence that sound gives in this way is independent of both sense perception and logic. That evidence is not established by sense perception or logic nor is it refuted by them. Sound is thus our kind friend and counsellor. With its help we can see what otherwise would be invisible to us.Thus in a certain situation one may be told ‘You are the tenth person.’ The hearer then knows, ‘I am the tenth person.’ In this way sound is a source of knowledge independent of either sense perception or logic. In this way sound can dispel illusion and establish truth. A mantra physician may chant the mantra ‘sarpa-daste tvayi visam nasti’ (Although you were bitten by a snake, there is no poison in you), or the mantra ‘vahni-taptam angam vahni-tapena samyati’ (The limb hurt by fire is now soothed), or the mantra ‘sauvarnam-bhasitam snigdham’ (Now you are effulgent like gold), or the mantra ‘ekam evausadham tri-dosa-ghnam’ (The disease is cured by this medicine). The effectiveness of these mantras is manifest by the mantras themselves. That effectiveness is not refuted by sense perception or logic. It is by hearing that one learns ‘Fire is the medicine for cold weather.’ It is by hearing that one learns the properties of diamonds. One cannot understand those properties by ordinary sense perception simply by looking at them. By ordinary logic one may think, ‘Diamonds are stones that come from the earth. Stones are cut by iron. Therefore diamonds may be cut by iron.’ In this way by mere logic also one cannot know the truth of diamonds. It is by hearing from a knowledgeable person that one understands, ‘Diamonds cut iron’. As far as they are able, sense perception and logic may be the helpful friends of the evidence that comes from hearing. A person whose head has been shaved by the trick of a magician with mystic powers may not be aware of that fact, but a demigod in the sky may call down to him, ‘It is so.’ In the same way one may hear from a knowledgeable person, ‘Iron may cut ordinary stones, but it does not cut diamond’, or ‘fire soothes the suffering brought by cold weather’, or one may believe the words of a person who says ‘The smoke you saw on the mountain was indeed a fire, and that fire was indeed extinguished by the rain. I directly saw it all myself’. When one has no power to see directly, then it is best to hear a description from a reliable person. In this way, for example, from a learned astrologer one hears of one’s astrological chart, or of future solar eclipses, or of other like things. Saintly persons accept that hearing the statements of scripture is the best way to attain knowledge. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

“I ask about the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is described in the Upanisads. I person who does not know the teaching of the Vedas cannot understand Him.”

When philosophers meet and discuss philosophy they will never come to a conclusion that will answer their question, a conclusion they will all accept. For this reason one should know that those questions are answered only in the eternal Vedic scriptures. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

“The real truth is described by the words of the glorious, eternal Vedas.”

In the Smrti-sastra it is said:

“The words spoken by the demigod Brahma in the beginning of creation are the words of the Vedas. Those words have neither beginning nor end. Those words are glorious and spiritual. From those words all the rules of religion have come.’

Because they are free from the four defects of mistakes, cheating, illusion, and imperfect senses, the words of the Vedas are perfect and faultless."





Jiva Goswami also gives a similiar analysis in His Tattva Sandarbha:


"Therefore direct perception and so on are unreliable sources of valid knowledge [because they are subject to the 4 human defects: Bhrama (delusion), Pramada (make mistakes), vipralipsa (desire to cheat) and karanapatava (imperfect senses).] We want to understand that object which transcends everything and is the shelter of everything, and whose nature no person can conceive or imagine. For this purpose our source of knowledge can only be the Vedas, which are comprised of nonmaterial sound The Vedas alone should be our pramana because they are EDDB25]externally self-manifest and from them in fact have been derived all departments of knowledge, mundane and spiritual, among all schools of thought in human society since time immemorial."


In essence, perception is the basis of all knowleadge, and all the pranamas should agree. But in order to understand the absolute reality (God), one cannot use pratyuksha and anumana as a basis. Only Shabda is the suitable basis for this knowleadge. When the pranamas disagree it usually means that one of them is wrong (usually interpretations of shabda is wrong, or senses are deluded). Further when there is a conflict between two shabdas, the shastric version is always taken. However, the Truth will always be in accordance with perfected anumana and pratyuksha. We Gaudiyas basically follow Madhavacharya here (who accepted three pramanas, (including smrti shastra in sabda category).
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
... If faith was enough, there would be no Indian philosophy, it would be theology. Everybody felt, including Shankara, that scripture had to be demonstrated through reason. I emphasis Shankara, because in Vedanta scripture is considered the highest means of knowledge, because Brahman cannot be known through perception and inference, you can only be told of Brahman's existence from a Brahma rishi who has directly perceived themselves Brahman(anubhava). However, Shankara still went to exhausting lengths to cogently demonstrate everything Vedanta says with reason. This is why it is philosophy and not theology.

Therefore, if scripture does indeed contradict both reason and perception, it is to be rejected. This is a classical view of all Dharmic religions. It is not shared by Abrahamic religions...
I agree; this is similar to the position of the Buddha in early Buddhism; he explored worlds and their laws unseen to the ordinary, undeveloped human, and then communicated those truths to us, urging us towards spiritual practice to know those worlds and laws for ourselves - not to believe his claims on blind faith alone.

Dharmic scriptures are commentaries on Reality. On the other hand, Reality must be reinterpreted or ignored in order conform to the scriptures in the Abrahamic religions.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not sure if you would consider our school (Brahma-Madhava Sampradaya) to be classical, but our epistemology is as follows (basically what you are saying with some differences). I'l quote directly from Baladeva Vidhyabhusana's Premya Ratnavali (where he summarizes Madhavacharya's philosophy):


"Direct Perception, logic and Vedic revelation are three sources of actual knowledge. This is described in the Shrimad-Bhagavatam (11.16.17): "The Four Vedas, direct perception, the Puranas and Vedic histories, as well as logic are four sources of actual knowledge.Direct perception and logic are actual sources of knowledge when they confirm the authoritative statements found in Vedic revelation. Only foolish persons bewildered by the illusory material energy of the Lord accept the misleading evidence of direct sensory perception. Logic and mental speculation are inconclusive and unreliable sources of knowledge. They may be compared to the forest fire on top of a hill which has just been extinguished by showers of rain, and thus yields no light, but only a great quantity of smoke. Intelligent persons to not therefore consider logic and sensory perception to be independent and infallible sources of knowledge, but rather they are dependent assistants to the principal source of knowledge: the Vedic revelation.When logic confirms the Vedic revelation, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.The proper use of logic is described by Yajnavalkya Muni in the Brihad-aranyaka Upanishad (4.5.6): "O Maitreyi, one should directly perceive the supreme Personality of Godhead by hearing about Him from a bona-fide spiritual master. In this way one con properly understand His position, and constantly meditate upon Him." Logic which has no foundation in scriptural revelation is described in the Katha Upanishad (1.2.9): "My dear Naciketa, simply by logic one will never be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but only by the descriptions of a realized spiritual master."The Smriti-shastra confirms: "One should reject the dry logic that considers: 'How important is it that one's reasoning follow the conclusion previously described in Vedic revelation? It cannot be very important.' Such logic leads one to the process known as speculative guessing." The Supreme Personality of Godhead is described in the statements of the Upanishads, and for this reason Vedic revelation is the best of all sources of knowledge. They who spurn the Vedic revelation do not have the power to properly understand the Supreme. This conclusion is confirmed in the Vedas:

"One ignorant of Vedic knowledge cannot actually understand the Supreme." (Shruti-shastra)

"Please tell me about the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is revealed in the Upanishads." (Brihad-aranyaka 3.9.26)"

He also writes in a similiar way in His Vedanta Syamantaka:

"Sense perception can perceive only what is nearby and gross. It cannot perceive things very near or very far away. For example, the eyes have only limited power to see a bird flying in the sky. Neither can the eyes see the mascara with which they are decorated. Even gross things, when they are present in the mind, cannot be seen with the external senses. Therefore one may say, ‘With my eyes I cannot see the thoughts of my mind’. Sense perception cannot perceive things that are hidden or eclipsed or overpowered by other things, or invisible, or the original ingredients of a blend. In this way with the eyes one cannot see the stars in the daytime for they are overpowered by the sunshine. Nor can one see milk’s potential to become yoghurt. Nor can one see the clouds raining on the middle of the ocean. Nor one can see the atom.The senses sometimes fail to see even what is very close. For example, it may be said, ‘With his unaided eyes Yajnadatta cannot see that his head was shaved by the trick of a magician with mystic powers.’ Even when it cannot be seen directly by the senses, the truth can often be inferred from certain symptoms. This is the use of logic. In this way when one sees smoke on a mountain one may infer the existence of a fire, and when that smoke is followed by a rainfall, one may infer that the rain extinguished the fire.When sense perception and logic both fail, other tools may be used to know the truth. In some situation the nature of the words themselves reveals the truth. Thus the mountains named Himalaya reveal by their name that snow (hima) is present on them. Also, the word ‘ratnalaya’ (storehouse of jewels) implies that jewels are present at such a place. Also, the jewel Suryakanta tells us by its name that it bursts into flames when exposed to sunlight. The evidence that sound gives in this way is independent of both sense perception and logic. That evidence is not established by sense perception or logic nor is it refuted by them. Sound is thus our kind friend and counsellor. With its help we can see what otherwise would be invisible to us.Thus in a certain situation one may be told ‘You are the tenth person.’ The hearer then knows, ‘I am the tenth person.’ In this way sound is a source of knowledge independent of either sense perception or logic. In this way sound can dispel illusion and establish truth. A mantra physician may chant the mantra ‘sarpa-daste tvayi visam nasti’ (Although you were bitten by a snake, there is no poison in you), or the mantra ‘vahni-taptam angam vahni-tapena samyati’ (The limb hurt by fire is now soothed), or the mantra ‘sauvarnam-bhasitam snigdham’ (Now you are effulgent like gold), or the mantra ‘ekam evausadham tri-dosa-ghnam’ (The disease is cured by this medicine). The effectiveness of these mantras is manifest by the mantras themselves. That effectiveness is not refuted by sense perception or logic. It is by hearing that one learns ‘Fire is the medicine for cold weather.’ It is by hearing that one learns the properties of diamonds. One cannot understand those properties by ordinary sense perception simply by looking at them. By ordinary logic one may think, ‘Diamonds are stones that come from the earth. Stones are cut by iron. Therefore diamonds may be cut by iron.’ In this way by mere logic also one cannot know the truth of diamonds. It is by hearing from a knowledgeable person that one understands, ‘Diamonds cut iron’. As far as they are able, sense perception and logic may be the helpful friends of the evidence that comes from hearing. A person whose head has been shaved by the trick of a magician with mystic powers may not be aware of that fact, but a demigod in the sky may call down to him, ‘It is so.’ In the same way one may hear from a knowledgeable person, ‘Iron may cut ordinary stones, but it does not cut diamond’, or ‘fire soothes the suffering brought by cold weather’, or one may believe the words of a person who says ‘The smoke you saw on the mountain was indeed a fire, and that fire was indeed extinguished by the rain. I directly saw it all myself’. When one has no power to see directly, then it is best to hear a description from a reliable person. In this way, for example, from a learned astrologer one hears of one’s astrological chart, or of future solar eclipses, or of other like things. Saintly persons accept that hearing the statements of scripture is the best way to attain knowledge. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

“I ask about the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is described in the Upanisads. I person who does not know the teaching of the Vedas cannot understand Him.”

When philosophers meet and discuss philosophy they will never come to a conclusion that will answer their question, a conclusion they will all accept. For this reason one should know that those questions are answered only in the eternal Vedic scriptures. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

“The real truth is described by the words of the glorious, eternal Vedas.”

In the Smrti-sastra it is said:

“The words spoken by the demigod Brahma in the beginning of creation are the words of the Vedas. Those words have neither beginning nor end. Those words are glorious and spiritual. From those words all the rules of religion have come.’

Because they are free from the four defects of mistakes, cheating, illusion, and imperfect senses, the words of the Vedas are perfect and faultless."





Jiva Goswami also gives a similiar analysis in His Tattva Sandarbha:


"Therefore direct perception and so on are unreliable sources of valid knowledge [because they are subject to the 4 human defects: Bhrama (delusion), Pramada (make mistakes), vipralipsa (desire to cheat) and karanapatava (imperfect senses).] We want to understand that object which transcends everything and is the shelter of everything, and whose nature no person can conceive or imagine. For this purpose our source of knowledge can only be the Vedas, which are comprised of nonmaterial sound The Vedas alone should be our pramana because they are EDDB25]externally self-manifest and from them in fact have been derived all departments of knowledge, mundane and spiritual, among all schools of thought in human society since time immemorial."


In essence, perception is the basis of all knowleadge, and all the pranamas should agree. But in order to understand the absolute reality (God), one cannot use pratyuksha and anumana as a basis. Only Shabda is the suitable basis for this knowleadge. When the pranamas disagree it usually means that one of them is wrong (usually interpretations of shabda is wrong, or senses are deluded). Further when there is a conflict between two shabdas, the shastric version is always taken. However, the Truth will always be in accordance with perfected anumana and pratyuksha. We Gaudiyas basically follow Madhavacharya here (who accepted three pramanas, (including smrti shastra in sabda category).

I am going to take issue with the way the sentences of the Upanisads have been translated in the above passage.

You wrote
.When logic confirms the Vedic revelation, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.The proper use of logic is described by Yajnavalkya Muni in the Brihad-aranyaka Upanishad (4.5.6): "O Maitreyi, one should directly perceive the supreme Personality of Godhead by hearing about Him from a bona-fide spiritual master. In this way one con properly understand His position, and constantly meditate upon Him."

I looked at the BHU 4.5.6 and the sentence is very different
Yajnavalkya said:- "You see Maitreyi - it is one's self (Atman) which one should see and hear, and on which one should reflect and concentrate. For when one has seen and heard one's self, when one has reflected and concentrated on one's self, one knows this whole world."

I see no discussion about logic, supreme personality or bona-fide spiritual master or any scripture. Instead both reflection (an intellectual enterprise that includes logical analysis) and concentration (meditation and yoga) are mentioned. Yajnavalkya was all about striving by oneself through reflection and meditation to realize the Self in BHU. The translation in your passage completely alters the meaning of the sentence.

A careful look at the Upanisads show that the various seers use all three methods of knowing:- direct perception, reasoning and logic as well as revelation to arrive at the knowledge of Brahman and Atman.

For example Ajatasatru uses reasoning about the state of consciousness in dreamless sleep to arrive at the Atman realization as he explains to Gargya in BHU 2.1.16 - 2.1.20. A sufficiently perceptive student will understand the nature of Brahman and Atman by observing the natural world itself as explained in Chandayoga Upanisad 4.5-4.15 (Satyakama and Upakosala).
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I am going to take issue with the way the sentences of the Upanisads have been translated in the above passage.

You wrote


I looked at the BHU 4.5.6 and the sentence is very different
Yajnavalkya said:- "You see Maitreyi - it is one's self (Atman) which one should see and hear, and on which one should reflect and concentrate. For when one has seen and heard one's self, when one has reflected and concentrated on one's self, one knows this whole world."

I see no discussion about logic, supreme personality or bona-fide spiritual master or any scripture. Instead both reflection (an intellectual enterprise that includes logical analysis) and concentration (meditation and yoga) are mentioned. Yajnavalkya was all about striving by oneself through reflection and meditation to realize the Self in BHU. The translation in your passage completely alters the meaning of the sentence.

A careful look at the Upanisads show that the various seers use all three methods of knowing:- direct perception, reasoning and logic as well as revelation to arrive at the knowledge of Brahman and Atman.

For example Ajatasatru uses reasoning about the state of consciousness in dreamless sleep to arrive at the Atman realization as he explains to Gargya in BHU 2.1.16 - 2.1.20. A sufficiently perceptive student will understand the nature of Brahman and Atman by observing the natural world itself as explained in Chandayoga Upanisad 4.5-4.15 (Satyakama and Upakosala).

I just took an english translation of Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary. Let us look at the sanskrit and break it down. Please note there is not one clear way to read the Upanishads. The Vedas themselves have been viewed in different visions (darshana) by the respective heads of each school. So BHU 4.5.6 reads (well the quoted section at least).

atma va are drashtavyah shrotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyo.

The order is important here. atma-The Supreme Soul, God. vai- certainly are- (O Maitreyi) drasthavyah-to be seen, shrotavyo-should be heard (from a Guru), mantavayo-should be understood , nididhysitavyah- should be meditated upon.

Not wanting to get to picky with sanskrit grammar here, but the word drashtavyah is in subject case (due to visarga) while the other three (shrotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyo) are not. So the proper way to read this sentence is as follows

"O Maitreyi, in order to See the Atma (God), one must first hear about Him [from a guru], understand Him [i.e apply that knowledge] and finally meditate on Him"

The order is hearing, then reflection and meditation, and is very important here. First we must hear (through Sabda) only then can be understand and finally meditate. The purport includes the order. Traditional English translation without any commentary don't seem to do justice to verses of Sruti.

If you don't trust me, below is Sankaracharya's commentary on this shloka:

"When the Self, my dear Maitreyī, is realised. How? By being first heard of from the teacher and the scriptures, then reflected on, discussed through argument or reasoning—the hearing is from the scriptures (and the teacher) alone, the reflection through reasoning—and lastly meditated upon (lit. known), ascertained to be such and such and not otherwise. What happens then? All this that is other than the Self is known, for there is nothing else but the Self."

Vedanta is very clear, that in order to understand Brahman one must first hear from a spiritual master. The Vedas are the only means to establish Brahman not another pramana (although these will support it as a later stage).

Now lets look at your other references:

BHU 2.1.16-20 says nothing about pramana. In-fact Gargya is telling (through Sabda) Ajatasatru about Brahman (and vica verca) like a teacher is telling a student. In 2.1.14 (a few verses back), Gargya approaches Ajatasatru as a student (upa tvā yānīti ). Sankaracharya's commentary on this confirms it also, In-fact this whole dialogue is sruti. All the information here is coming directly to us as a medium of Sabda only, that is why I think your conclusion is a bit strange to me.

In fact my other reference from Katha Upanishad (1.2.9) supports my point of view quite clearly:

naiṣā tarkeṇa matir āpaneyā, proktānyenaiva sujñānāya preṣṭha:

naisa- not He tarkena- by logic [tarka] matir-into mind [understanding] apaneya-is brought. prokanaiva- but certainly from a speaker [the Guru] sujñānāya-Obtains knowledge of prestha- O dear one

Which reads as:

He (God) cannot be brought into the mind by logic, but certainly by hearing from a speaker [who is realized], one knows Him, O dear one.

Not only in Katha, but in Śvetāśvatara (6.23) the following statement is found:

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

"One who has faith in the Lord, if he has equal faith in the Guru as well the the Lord, in his heart the true meaning is revealed by that Great Personality.



Heck even in Brahma Sutras (which are seen as the essence of the Upanishads) there is a sutra that reads

shastrayonitvat (1.1.3 I think)

"Scripture (Shastra) is the source (yoni) [of knowledge about Brahman]"



I;m aware other darshanas read it differently, but Vedanta is pretty clear about Vedas being needed to understand Brahman. In his Vivekchudamani, Sankaracharya says this also. The Vaishnav acharyas also mirror his view. Jaya Nitai!


 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I just took an english translation of Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary. Let us look at the sanskrit and break it down. Please note there is not one clear way to read the Upanishads. The Vedas themselves have been viewed in different visions (darshana) by the respective heads of each school. So BHU 4.5.6 reads (well the quoted section at least).

atma va are drashtavyah shrotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyo.

The order is important here. atma-The Supreme Soul, God. vai- certainly are- (O Maitreyi) drasthavyah-to be seen, shrotavyo-should be heard (from a Guru), mantavayo-should be understood , nididhysitavyah- should be meditated upon.

Not wanting to get to picky with sanskrit grammar here, but the word drashtavyah is in subject case (due to visarga) while the other three (shrotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyo) are not. So the proper way to read this sentence is as follows

"O Maitreyi, in order to See the Atma (God), one must first hear about Him [from a guru], understand Him [i.e apply that knowledge] and finally meditate on Him"

The order is hearing, then reflection and meditation, and is very important here. First we must hear (through Sabda) only then can be understand and finally meditate. The purport includes the order. Traditional English translation without any commentary don't seem to do justice to verses of Sruti.

If you don't trust me, below is Sankaracharya's commentary on this shloka:

"When the Self, my dear Maitreyī, is realised. How? By being first heard of from the teacher and the scriptures, then reflected on, discussed through argument or reasoning—the hearing is from the scriptures (and the teacher) alone, the reflection through reasoning—and lastly meditated upon (lit. known), ascertained to be such and such and not otherwise. What happens then? All this that is other than the Self is known, for there is nothing else but the Self."

Vedanta is very clear, that in order to understand Brahman one must first hear from a spiritual master. The Vedas are the only means to establish Brahman not another pramana (although these will support it as a later stage).

Now lets look at your other references:

BHU 2.1.16-20 says nothing about pramana. In-fact Gargya is telling (through Sabda) Ajatasatru about Brahman (and vica verca) like a teacher is telling a student. In 2.1.14 (a few verses back), Gargya approaches Ajatasatru as a student (upa tvā yānīti ). Sankaracharya's commentary on this confirms it also, In-fact this whole dialogue is sruti. All the information here is coming directly to us as a medium of Sabda only, that is why I think your conclusion is a bit strange to me.

In fact my other reference from Katha Upanishad (1.2.9) supports my point of view quite clearly:

naiṣā tarkeṇa matir āpaneyā, proktānyenaiva sujñānāya preṣṭha:

naisa- not He tarkena- by logic [tarka] matir-into mind [understanding] apaneya-is brought. prokanaiva- but certainly from a speaker [the Guru] sujñānāya-Obtains knowledge of prestha- O dear one

Which reads as:

He (God) cannot be brought into the mind by logic, but certainly by hearing from a speaker [who is realized], one knows Him, O dear one.

Not only in Katha, but in Śvetāśvatara (6.23) the following statement is found:

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

"One who has faith in the Lord, if he has equal faith in the Guru as well the the Lord, in his heart the true meaning is revealed by that Great Personality.



Heck even in Brahma Sutras (which are seen as the essence of the Upanishads) there is a sutra that reads

shastrayonitvat (1.1.3 I think)

"Scripture (Shastra) is the source (yoni) [of knowledge about Brahman]"



I;m aware other darshanas read it differently, but Vedanta is pretty clear about Vedas being needed to understand Brahman. In his Vivekchudamani, Sankaracharya says this also. The Vaishnav acharyas also mirror his view. Jaya Nitai!
While it may be a point of principle for the Vedanta schools to believe that the knowledge can only be passed on from a teacher, the Upanisadic passage itself does not reflect it. But this is par for the course. It is typical of Indian schools to add new things that reflect the developed philosophy and theology of their sampradaya in the commentary of respected scriptures but which are absent in the scriptures themselves. So I keep the translation and commentary separate from each other.

ātmā vā are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyāsitavyo maitreyi; ātmani khalvare dṛṣṭe śrute mate vijñāta idaṃ sarvaṃ viditam

This sentence does not have the word God or the word Guru or teacher. The translation is quite simple. It is one's atman which one should see, one should hear, reflect and concentrate. When one has seen, heard, reflected and concentrated on one's Atman, one knows everything that is to know. This is quite consistent with Sankara's translation, though his commentary hews to the principles of his school.



This is a good english translation of the upanisads with Sankara bhasya. This translation reads:-
The Self, my dear Maitreyī, should be realised—should be heard of, reflected on and meditated upon. When the Self, my dear, is realised by being heard of, reflected on and meditated upon, all this is known.

While I prefer the translation I used (LINK) , here too there is no mention of a teacher or God or scriptures. Sankara adds these things in his commentary, which is his prerogative. But to say that it is directly referred to in the Upanisad itself is incorrect.

Yajnavalkya and Maitreyi (II) [Section V]

Now lets look at your other references:

BHU 2.1.16-20 says nothing about pramana. In-fact Gargya is telling (through Sabda) Ajatasatru about Brahman (and vica verca) like a teacher is telling a student. In 2.1.14 (a few verses back), Gargya approaches Ajatasatru as a student (upa tvā yānīti ). Sankaracharya's commentary on this confirms it also, In-fact this whole dialogue is sruti. All the information here is coming directly to us as a medium of Sabda only, that is why I think your conclusion is a bit strange to me.
I disagree. It is a careful analysis of the three states of consciousness and inference based on the three states. Another good example of this conclusion of atman and the life-death cycle based on analysis of the states of awareness and inference from it is seen in BHU 4.3 (Yajnavalkya-Janaka dialogue). Sankara devotes pages on commentary on this , but the basic translation is clear and simple enough.
Investigation of the Three States [Section III]

Regarding Katha, I agree. Katha is clearly styled as a revelation from Yama to Nachiketas. Svetasatara is obviously theistic and explicitly brings in Isvara. But you forget the examples of Satyakam and Upakosala from Chandayoga who realize Brahman directly by interacting with the elements and the animal world without needing a human or God as teacher.

So, each section of the Upanisads have a different take on the issue (unsurprisingly). But overall, all modes of knowing are used in some place or the other to arrive at the realization of Atman, Brahman or Isvara.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
While it may be a point of principle for the Vedanta schools to believe that the knowledge can only be passed on from a teacher, the Upanisadic passage itself does not reflect it. But this is par for the course. It is typical of Indian schools to add new things that reflect the developed philosophy and theology of their sampradaya in the commentary of respected scriptures but which are absent in the scriptures themselves. So I keep the translation and commentary separate from each other.

ātmā vā are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyāsitavyo maitreyi; ātmani khalvare dṛṣṭe śrute mate vijñāta idaṃ sarvaṃ viditam

This sentence does not have the word God or the word Guru or teacher. The translation is quite simple. It is one's atman which one should see, one should hear, reflect and concentrate. When one has seen, heard, reflected and concentrated on one's Atman, one knows everything that is to know. This is quite consistent with Sankara's translation, though his commentary hews to the principles of his school.



This is a good english translation of the upanisads with Sankara bhasya. This translation reads:-
The Self, my dear Maitreyī, should be realised—should be heard of, reflected on and meditated upon. When the Self, my dear, is realised by being heard of, reflected on and meditated upon, all this is known.

While I prefer the translation I used (LINK) , here too there is no mention of a teacher or God or scriptures. Sankara adds these things in his commentary, which is his prerogative. But to say that it is directly referred to in the Upanisad itself is incorrect.

Yajnavalkya and Maitreyi (II) [Section V]


I disagree. It is a careful analysis of the three states of consciousness and inference based on the three states. Another good example of this conclusion of atman and the life-death cycle based on analysis of the states of awareness and inference from it is seen in BHU 4.3 (Yajnavalkya-Janaka dialogue). Sankara devotes pages on commentary on this , but the basic translation is clear and simple enough.
Investigation of the Three States [Section III]

Regarding Katha, I agree. Katha is clearly styled as a revelation from Yama to Nachiketas. Svetasatara is obviously theistic and explicitly brings in Isvara. But you forget the examples of Satyakam and Upakosala from Chandayoga who realize Brahman directly by interacting with the elements and the animal world without needing a human or God as teacher.

So, each section of the Upanisads have a different take on the issue (unsurprisingly). But overall, all modes of knowing are used in some place or the other to arrive at the realization of Atman, Brahman or Isvara.
Then we must agree to disagree. The Upanishads themselves are vague and do not yield meaningful truths if read directly. In fact they lead to contradictions. It then becomes a question of your interpretation against Shankaras. I cannot condone such an English translation as the true meaning. The Upanishads themselves are the source of the Vedanta school (the Upanishads are Veda anta or Vedas end) and that is why the other darshanas have stayed generally far away from commenting on them. It is my opinion, and that of Vedanta (which I fully support) that knowledge of Brahman can only be established through Shabda and nothing else. Brahman is adhoksaja and cannot be experienced by the mundane senses. That is why sruti describes Him as neti neti (not this, not this). Only by hearing from a self realised soul (as is the case in these Upanishad conversations) one can know Brahman


Btw Atman does not have to refer to the Self (soul). That is Sankaras interpretation, but my school takes ATMA to means Paramatma, the form of God that exists and maintains every living being. Atma therefore is God, the sumpreme maintainer and indweller
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Then we must agree to disagree. The Upanishads themselves are vague and do not yield meaningful truths if read directly. In fact they lead to contradictions. It then becomes a question of your interpretation against Shankaras. I cannot condone such an English translation as the true meaning. The Upanishads themselves are the source of the Vedanta school (the Upanishads are Veda anta or Vedas end) and that is why the other darshanas have stayed generally far away from commenting on them. It is my opinion, and that of Vedanta (which I fully support) that knowledge of Brahman can only be established through Shabda and nothing else. Brahman is adhoksaja and cannot be experienced by the mundane senses. That is why sruti describes Him as neti neti (not this, not this). Only by hearing from a self realised soul (as is the case in these Upanishad conversations) one can know Brahman


Btw Atman does not have to refer to the Self (soul). That is Sankaras interpretation, but my school takes ATMA to means Paramatma, the form of God that exists and maintains every living being. Atma therefore is God, the sumpreme maintainer and indweller
Yes, we will disagree, but that is expected as come to Hinduism from different schools of thought (darsana). In future I may post a thread catering specifically to the Upanisadic passages I find interesting and what I make out of them. We will take it up again at that time.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
On the epistemology of Science

There are a lot of intelligent people here, and scientists as well, so there is no need for me to tell them about the epistemology of science. However, there does seem to be a general confusion expressed by some that science is just based on perception or empiricism as it is called in the trade. This is not true, science is based on inference. Just perception can only tell you what is available to the senses and to the extensions to the senses, but if you want to know that which cannot be known with our current sensory means, then you have to use inference. Later, when the capacity of our sensory equipment increases, what was inferred could actually be brought into perception e.g. Many of the postulates of the Theory of Relativity at the time Einstein postulated it were purely based on inference, it is only later that we were able to empirically observe them e.g. gravity waves. There are still many things accepted in science which are inferential objects e.g atoms, we do not actually ever 'see' atoms, we see atoms indirectly by bombarding them with particles and from the back-scattering we can compute the size, mass, charge etc. In the future, we might design microscopes so powerful, that we would be able to directly see them.

So why do we use the word 'theory' like Theory of Atoms, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Quantum, and indeed Theory of Evolution? It is a theory because we cannot actually see it, but we can know from the effects that we see that it exists: There is a very similar arguments in the Samkhyakarika which tells us why there are things in this world that cannot be seen, and how we know that they exist.

7. Apprehension of even existent things do not arise because of excessive distance, excessive proximity, imperfect senses, absent mindedness, subtlety, suppressed by other objects, obstructed, mixed with similar objects(camouflaged) and other causes
8. The non perception of prakriti is because it is too subtle and not because it does not exist. It is detected through its effects. These effects are Mahat(great intelligence) and the rest. Some of them are similar and some of them are dissimilar to prakriti

Here you can see how Samkhya uses exactly the same kind of scientific inferences a modern day scientist would use to infer something unseen. I will revisit Samkhya when I talk about evolution.

'It is just a theory' this is the most common criticism made about scientific theories and I read somebody in this thread use this argument against ToE. In colloquial use when we say "It is my theory" we mean it is my idea that something is a certain way e.g. it is my theory that Atlantis will be found in the Indian ocean. In science, that is a hypothesis literally meaning an idea that can be tested. If then a scientist does the investigations and goes to the Indian ocean to try and detect Atlantis based on effects they see and builds a huge body of empirical data which forces an inference that there really is a submerged continent there, then it becomes a theory. A theory needs to have three features for it be considered a good theory 1)It must be able to explain all previous empirical data and any new empirical data 2)It must be able to predict future empirical data and 3)It must be parsimonious/simple no multiplication of assumptions and unknowns.

So understand this when you read Theory of Evolution, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Atoms, it means that of all the empirical data that has been collected so far on that subject, that current theory is the most simplest that accounts for all the data thus far. Critics of ToE have to accept that ToE is the best and most simplest explanation we have so far that accounts for all the data in the fossil records, geological record and biological record. So just by saying it's only theory or a shared belief of scientists you pose absolutely no challenge to it. The only way you challenge a theory is by falsifying it.

The good news is theories do get falsified, and thanks to Karl Popper for throwing light on this. The history of science is actually a history of falsification of previous theories. That is because any theory is based only on past and current empirical observations, it cannot account for future observations in the unobservable world. When new observations are made i.e., new empirical data comes along, if the current theory cannot account for it(in fact sometimes the current theory predicts the new observation) then the current theory is revised. If even after revision the current theory cannot account for the new empirical data, then the current theory stands falsified and an entirely new theory has to be created that can both account for all past empirical data and the new data e.g. Classical physics could not explain the behaviour of atoms, so modern physics(including QM and GR) was created

So how can you falsify TOE? There are two ways it can be falsified/

1) By discovering human fossils in an era where ToE predicts they can't be found. This is Cremo's approach.
2) By showing that there are certain features that could not be explained by natural selection. This is the approach of Intelligent design proponents. It is also a condition Darwin himself described as the way to falsify this theory, he felt the eye was one such feature that could pose a problem to his theory, because of its complex design, we of course know now that the eye was not always as complex as it is today, hence Darwin would be reassured.

Hence, I encourage the critics of ToE to take either or both of these approaches to continue the discussion, rather than repeat old chest nuts like "It's just a theory, why are apes still around"
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
On the epistemology of Science

There are a lot of intelligent people here, and scientists as well, so there is no need for me to tell them about the epistemology of science. However, there does seem to be a general confusion expressed by some that science is just based on perception or empiricism as it is called in the trade. This is not true, science is based on inference. Just perception can only tell you what is available to the senses and to the extensions to the senses, but if you want to know that which cannot be known with our current sensory means, then you have to use inference. Later, when the capacity of our sensory equipment increases, what was inferred could actually be brought into perception e.g. Many of the postulates of the Theory of Relativity at the time Einstein postulated it were purely based on inference, it is only later that we were able to empirically observe them e.g. gravity waves. There are still many things accepted in science which are inferential objects e.g atoms, we do not actually ever 'see' atoms, we see atoms indirectly by bombarding them with particles and from the back-scattering we can compute the size, mass, charge etc. In the future, we might design microscopes so powerful, that we would be able to directly see them.

So why do we use the word 'theory' like Theory of Atoms, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Quantum, and indeed Theory of Evolution? It is a theory because we cannot actually see it, but we can know from the effects that we see that it exists: There is a very similar arguments in the Samkhyakarika which tells us why there are things in this world that cannot be seen, and how we know that they exist.

7. Apprehension of even existent things do not arise because of excessive distance, excessive proximity, imperfect senses, absent mindedness, subtlety, suppressed by other objects, obstructed, mixed with similar objects(camouflaged) and other causes
8. The non perception of prakriti is because it is too subtle and not because it does not exist. It is detected through its effects. These effects are Mahat(great intelligence) and the rest. Some of them are similar and some of them are dissimilar to prakriti

Here you can see how Samkhya uses exactly the same kind of scientific inferences a modern day scientist would use to infer something unseen. I will revisit Samkhya when I talk about evolution.

'It is just a theory' this is the most common criticism made about scientific theories and I read somebody in this thread use this argument against ToE. In colloquial use when we say "It is my theory" we mean it is my idea that something is a certain way e.g. it is my theory that Atlantis will be found in the Indian ocean. In science, that is a hypothesis literally meaning an idea that can be tested. If then a scientist does the investigations and goes to the Indian ocean to try and detect Atlantis based on effects they see and builds a huge body of empirical data which forces an inference that there really is a submerged continent there, then it becomes a theory. A theory needs to have three features for it be considered a good theory 1)It must be able to explain all previous empirical data and any new empirical data 2)It must be able to predict future empirical data and 3)It must be parsimonious/simple no multiplication of assumptions and unknowns.

So understand this when you read Theory of Evolution, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Atoms, it means that of all the empirical data that has been collected so far on that subject, that current theory is the most simplest that accounts for all the data thus far. Critics of ToE have to accept that ToE is the best and most simplest explanation we have so far that accounts for all the data in the fossil records, geological record and biological record. So just by saying it's only theory or a shared belief of scientists you pose absolutely no challenge to it. The only way you challenge a theory is by falsifying it.

The good news is theories do get falsified, and thanks to Karl Popper for throwing light on this. The history of science is actually a history of falsification of previous theories. That is because any theory is based only on past and current empirical observations, it cannot account for future observations in the unobservable world. When new observations are made i.e., new empirical data comes along, if the current theory cannot account for it(in fact sometimes the current theory predicts the new observation) then the current theory is revised. If even after revision the current theory cannot account for the new empirical data, then the current theory stands falsified and an entirely new theory has to be created that can both account for all past empirical data and the new data e.g. Classical physics could not explain the behaviour of atoms, so modern physics(including QM and GR) was created

So how can you falsify TOE? There are two ways it can be falsified/

1) By discovering human fossils in an era where evolution predicts they can't be found. This is Cremo's approach.
2) By showing that there are certain features that could not be explained by natural selection. This is the approach of Intelligent design proponents. It is also a condition Darwin himself described as the way to falsify this theory, he felt the eye was one such feature that could pose a problem to his theory, because of its complex design, we of course know now that the eye was not always as complex as it is today, hence Darwin would be reassured.

Hence, I encourage the critics of ToE to take either or both of these approaches to continue the discussion, rather than repeat old chest nuts like "It's just a theory, why are apes still around"
A more detailed discussion on the basic features of the theory is in the thread linked below:-
What is Evolution?
Important Posts
Post 4
Post 5
Post 37
Post 84
Post 99
Post 150
The later posts go into the basic mathematical structure of the evolutionary theory.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I'm not sure if you would consider our school (Brahma-Madhava Sampradaya) to be classical, but our epistemology is as follows (basically what you are saying with some differences). I'l quote directly from Baladeva Vidhyabhusana's Premya Ratnavali (where he summarizes Madhavacharya's philosophy):

No, it would not be considered classical, but medieval.

In essence, perception is the basis of all knowleadge, and all the pranamas should agree. But in order to understand the absolute reality (God), one cannot use pratyuksha and anumana as a basis. Only Shabda is the suitable basis for this knowleadge. When the pranamas disagree it usually means that one of them is wrong (usually interpretations of shabda is wrong, or senses are deluded). Further when there is a conflict between two shabdas, the shastric version is always taken. However, the Truth will always be in accordance with perfected anumana and pratyuksha. We Gaudiyas basically follow Madhavacharya here (who accepted three pramanas, (including smrti shastra in sabda category).

Thank you sharing this brilliant commentary. It is very well argued. I think I need to read more works of by Madhva.
I agree that knowledge obtained from perception and reasoning is subject to certain defects, such as the ones mentioned like our senses are limited, we can be mistaken etc. However, it is for this reason the scientific method was developed to be more meticulous in gathering empirical data, to have peer-review, and to mostly gather your data using instruments(as instruments are less subject to error than human senses are) I grant you that are certain methodological defects that will always remain, for example as I mentioned there will always be a possibility for falsification by new observations. As there is always an non observable world, we do not know what we are going to find in that non-observable world that will force us to revise our understanding.

However, though you have spoken about the defects in science, you have not mentioned the greater defects in faith. Now, allow me to talk about those. What I tell you to accept on faith has the following defects 1)Deception, I could be lying e.g.Halle bop comet cult leader lied to them 2) It is subject to delusion, what I have told you is my experience might actually be my hallucination e.g. people with messiah complex 3) It cannot be tested, there is no way you can test faith either with perception or reasoning. If I say that if you give me $1,000,000 you will get a ticket to heaven, how do you test the claim? 4) It is contradicted by other faith e.g. Dharmic religions say reincarnation is a fact, you live many lives; Abrahamic religions say you live only one life and face judgement.

These defects are even greater than the defects in Science, because they can lead to negative things like: terrorism, fundamentalism, superstition, religious wars and even genocide. Therefore, though science knowledge is definitely limited, it has proven to be the only epistemology that has proven to be reliable, that we can use to produce real practical results in life and progress in every area of life.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
No, it would not be considered classical, but medieval.



Thank you sharing this brilliant commentary. It is very well argued. I think I need to read more works of by Madhva.
I agree that knowledge obtained from perception and reasoning is subject to certain defects, such as the ones mentioned like our senses are limited, we can be mistaken etc. However, it is for this reason the scientific method was developed to be more meticulous in gathering empirical data, to have peer-review, and to mostly gather your data using instruments(as instruments are less subject to error than human senses are) I grant you that are certain methodological defects that will always remain, for example as I mentioned there will always be a possibility for falsification by new observations. As there is always an non observable world, we do not know what we are going to find in that non-observable world that will force us to revise our understanding.

However, though you have spoken about the defects in science, you have not mentioned the greater defects in faith. Now, allow me to talk about those. What I tell you to accept on faith has the following defects 1)Deception, I could be lying e.g.Halle bop comet cult leader lied to them 2) It is subject to delusion, what I have told you is my experience might actually be my hallucination e.g. people with messiah complex 3) It cannot be tested, there is no way you can test faith either with perception or reasoning. If I say that if you give me $1,000,000 you will get a ticket to heaven, how do you test the claim? 4) It is contradicted by other faith e.g. Dharmic religions say reincarnation is a fact, you live many lives; Abrahamic religions say you live only one life and face judgement.

These defects are even greater than the defects in Science, because they can lead to negative things like: terrorism, fundamentalism, superstition, religious wars and even genocide. Therefore, though science knowledge is definitely limited, it has proven to be the only epistemology that has proven to be reliable, that we can use to produce real practical results in life and progress in every area of life.


Good reply. A comment though. The defects I mentioned are not defects of science in any sense. Rather they are defects of the first two Pramanas on a fundamental level because the first two are human based, while Shastric Sabda is not..

A great deal of scientific knowledge rests of Sabda Pramana. You as an individual do not know atoms exist through pratyuksha or anumana, but only Sabda (you trust your textbooks and professors who have told you). Pratyuksha would be to actually experIence atom existence either directly through senses or by the use of an instrument, Anumana would be to infer the existence of atoms with inference alone. Nor would I agree that "faith defects" are greater than science simply on the basis of consequences. For me that argument does not follow (the degree of error in any process is not dependent on its the negative consequences). This is similar from measuring the degree of a lie by the harm it has on people, not its relative measurement to the truth. Negative consequences is a question of morality and value and one can conjecture scientific principles to lead to these negative effects too (think of oppressive states that were atheistic/materialistic in natural and you'll see many of the "negative effects" coming from then assumed scientific primciples.). Adwaits takes this to an extreme level actually by claiming that everything, all forms of knowledge are false and due only to delusion of Maya.


Faith is the root of all three pramanas, and the Dharmic schools did not think in terms of faith vs reason like westerners think now. Rather faith is the driving force which yields knowledge from a pramanas. In Gita it is said, Sraddhavan labhate jnanam, a person of Faith attains knowledge. In order to pratyuksha to work, once must have faith that the senses are not deluded and can interact with the world in a meaningful manner as to yield knowledge. In order for anumana to work one must have faith that the mind and its processes is able to accurately understand, process and predict empirical data. In order for Sabda to work once just have faith that the speaker is speaking he Truth.

You mentioned 4 types of defects in faith, but these defects apply to all pramanas. however our definitions of faith are a little different (you are using the word in a Abhrahamic sense) so I won't go further. The Vedic Dharma are more special because they allow us to verify Sabdha pramana through the process of sadhana, My own spiritual practice has given me enough realisation to understand the authenticity of my path. Our experiences dictate our faith and it is on this basis that we accept or reject.
 
Last edited:

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Good reply. A comment though. The defects I mentioned are not defects of science in any sense. Rather they are defects of the first two Pramanas on a fundamental level because the first two are human based, while Shastric Sabda is not..

This is a circular argument, you are telling me that Shastra is not human based, but this is is based on accepting the faith that shastra is not human based. To one who is not a member of that faith, shastra is as human based as comic books are, and worse to a member of another faith, they can be devil-based. This is why shabd was not a valid pramana when debating with other religions and other philosophical schools that do not accept shabd or certain shabd. It is only the Mimamsa school that make the claim that Vedas are non-human, not the Vedas or the Upanishads themselves. I am not sure what claim the Puranas make, the the Puranas do not have universal authority for all Hindus, some Hindus reject Puranas and some just consider it stories as you can see in my thread 'How do you approach the Puranas' This fundamental epistemological flaw in shabd was recognised by Shankara, Ramunjacharya and Madhva, which is why they had to use the other two pramanas of perception and reasoning to support what their interpretation of the shabd said. Hence, I submit to you even in our philosophical tradition shabd was never seen as a stand alone pramana. This is why Dharmic religions are not faith based religions.

The Hare Krishna sect founded by Prabhupada is not recognised as traditional Hinduism, not even traditional Gaudiya vaishnavism, it is considered neo-Hinduism, because it borrows a lot of themes and ideas from Abrahamic religions e.g. skepticism of science, preaching and missionaries to spread religion, dogmas, and even including conspiracy theories like Illuminati, moon landing hoax and misogyny as well prudish Victorian values. I do not mean to offend you, but I have never been impressed by anything Prabhupada has said. He strikes me as a religious fundamentalist. To even name his version of Bhagvad Gita as "As it is" is similar to the exclusivist claims by evangelicals that only Jesus is the way.

I feel you have inherited a lot of your way of thinking about Hinduism and Indian philosophy from the ISCON. It does not reflect traditional classical views.

A great deal of scientific knowledge rests of Sabda Pramana. You as an individual do not know atoms exist through pratyuksha or anumana, but only Sabda (you trust your textbooks and professors who have told you). Pratyuksha would be to actually experIence atom existence either directly through senses or by the use of an instrument, Anumana would be to infer the existence of atoms with inference alone.

I agree with you that for many laypeople scientific knowledge depends on expert testimony. However, not for those studying science and those practising science. Do you remember at school when you were taught something about science, like Faraday's laws or Hooks laws, and then immediately after you did an experiment to to see how it actually works yourself with your own perception and then collected all the measurements using instruments and then used inference to calculate various things like. There was no faith involved. The only faith involved here is that the instruments are giving the correct results. However, even that is not faith, because the instruments have to be calibrated precisely based on international standards. There is no faith involved in any of the sciences. It is the complete opposite of faith in fact, it is based on skepticism of testimony. This is why every new scientific discovery goes through rigorous peer review.

Nor would I agree that "faith defects" are greater than science simply on the basis of consequences. For me that argument does not follow (the degree of error in any process is not dependent on its the negative consequences). This is similar from measuring the degree of a lie by the harm it has on people, not its relative measurement to the truth. Negative consequences is a question of morality and value and one can conjecture scientific principles to lead to these negative effects too (think of oppressive states that were atheistic/materialistic in natural and you'll see many of the "negative effects" coming from then assumed scientific primciples.). Adwaits takes this to an extreme level actually by claiming that everything, all forms of knowledge are false and due only to delusion of Maya.

The point I understand you are making that consequences of faith is not a defect of faith itself, but rather a defect of moral interpretations of faith. In the same way the consequences of science like say nuclear bombs is not a defect of science, but a defect of moral interpretations of science. I disagree. Science is not moralistic, it is in fact amoral. It is amoral because it is only an epistemology or method of obtaining knowledge. We can use this method of knowledge to discover atoms, but the method of knowledge cannot discover a nuclear bomb -- that is one application of atomic theory. Another is nuclear medicine. On the other hand, a statement of faith is morally prescriptive, it tells you to do something purely based on testimonial authority e.g. "Kill the non believers" or "Jews are a subhuman race and need to be exterminated" or "She is a witch, burn her" These are all actual historical examples where the negative consequences of faith are dictated by the faith. Science does not dictate anything(scientists can though)
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Faith is the root of all three pramanas, and the Dharmic schools did not think in terms of faith vs reason like westerners think now. Rather faith is the driving force which yields knowledge from a pramanas. In Gita it is said, Sraddhavan labhate jnanam, a person of Faith attains knowledge. In order to pratyuksha to work, once must have faith that the senses are not deluded and can interact with the world in a meaningful manner as to yield knowledge. In order for anumana to work one must have faith that the mind and its processes is able to accurately understand, process and predict empirical data. In order for Sabda to work once just have faith that the speaker is speaking he Truth.

I think you are using 'faith' a bit loosely here. Rather than faith I think we should call it assumption. It is my assumption that when I go on around the loop on the roller coaster I the train will not fall off. How? Well, I studied physics at school and I did the experiment where a bucket with of water span around at a certain speed it will not fall out. I know the roller coaster is just a larger version of based on the same principles. I know that this law has been established by repeating the same experiment zillions of times for some 200 years. So rather than calling this faith, I would say it is based on our knowledge thus far of how the laws of physics work. As for knowledge that the senses are not deluded, again I repeat as I mentioned above, this is why we use sensory equipment which is calibrated to international standards precisely. The standards for perception are very strict in science. In Nyaya a few conditions for collecting empirical data have been mentioned

1. The perception must be current and indeterminate(i.e., we collect pure data, and do not give names)
2. The perception must be clear and distinct
3. The perception must be unwavering

Similarly how do we know our inferences are correct. Inferences have been used incorrectly by Aristotle and many medieval scientists to come to wrong conclusions. That is because they did not have rules for valid inference. Again I will cite Nyaya which furnishes some of these rules

1. There inference must be invariably concomitant
2. It must be based on repeated body of perceived evidence
3. It must be present in the current locus
4. It must not be present in any other locus

In terms of modern science we call it peer-review. The data has to face very strict tests of statistical analysis and strict testing criteria which is actually designed to falsify the theory i.e., scientists are actually to disprove the theory by throwing every test they can think of at it and only after it has passed every test is it approved. A similar thing is done with clinical trial of drugs, before it is approved by the FDA it has to pass rigorous tests and trials to show the inference is correct.

In science we do not leave anything to chance, speculation or faith.

You mentioned 4 types of defects in faith, but these defects apply to all pramanas. however our definitions of faith are a little different (you are using the word in a Abhrahamic sense) so I won't go further. The Vedic Dharma are more special because they allow us to verify Sabdha pramana through the process of sadhana, My own spiritual practice has given me enough realisation to understand the authenticity of my path. Our experiences dictate our faith and it is on this basis that we accept or reject.

I disagree that those 4 defects are present in science to any appreciable extent so as to make it the same as faith. Peer review minimises the possibility for error or fraud on all 4 counts. 1)Deception. There are several charlatans in the science field like cold fusion, free energy and antigravity scientists. They get caught out immediately when their experiment is tested by others 2) Mistaken or hallucination. The scientist documents their experiment and research on paper, it is then studied by peers and any flaws in experimental design are picked up. n 3) Can't be tested, well this is self explanatory science is all about testing. The peer review is designed for maximum scope for falsification and 4) Conflicting accounts, in science bad theories can never win against good theories, because like a process of natural selection, the bad ones die out and the good ones remain.

You are very right that the traditional Dharmic definition of faith is very different from Abrahamic ones, though I do think you are leaning more to the Abrahamic side with your definition of faith. Faith or Sharadda in Indian thought is conviction in what scripture or Guru is saying is right. How is that conviction achieved? It cannot be achieved just through sharvanam(listening, reading) it has to be followed by mananam(analysis, reflection, contemplation) and finally nidhiyanasam(meditation, testing and integrating in life) Sharvanam is not considered a stand alone step. If that was enough there be no need for the later Mimamsa traditions. The darsanas arose because faith was not enough.

First you hear about it from scripture or Guru(testimony) you then critically analyse it, question it, raise doubts and clarify doubts(inference) and finally when you have indubitable knowledge you take up the sadhana(practice) which will give you a direct experience of what scripture is saying(perception) This is also how I came to the Vedic religion. I first heard about it, but I thought it was all nonsense in the beginning(I am an ex atheist) I then started to study Indian philosophy and I came across scientific arguments that removed most of my doubts. Finally, I took up formal practices of Yoga in meditation.

What happens if you just go straight to practice? Well, you have a shaky foundation and your practice may bear little fruit because as Patanjali describes(nothing is left to chance in Dharmic tradition, like science) one of the major obstacles is doubt. Yoga does not give instant results. Some people meditate for a decade and nothing happens and they lose faith. Some people meditate and get small gains like the lower level siddhis, and then stop because they think they are already enlightened and want to open their own ashrams. Some people meditate and experience psychosis or premature Kundalini awakening(like Gopi Krishna) In order to minimise these potential obstacles you need to fully study and understand the underpinning philosophy.

It is because of my understanding of Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta that I know that yoga is the only way. Even if I do not get results for 10 years of practice, I know that it works because all the science checks out. I can further reference it with modern studies in parapsychology and phenomenology. I know this stuff is real(reincarnation, other dimensions of reality, subtle bodies, siddhis, Atman, Brahman, Ishvara, rishis) because I have deeply studied the science. I am convinced they are real as I am convinced atoms and gravity is real.
 
Last edited:

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
This is a circular argument, you are telling me that Shastra is not human based, but this is is based on accepting the faith that shastra is not human based. To one who is not a member of that faith, shastra is as human based as comic books are, and worse to a member of another faith, they can be devil-based.

A circular argument is when the one of the premises is the conclusion. My argument is not circular but rather based upon the assumption that shastra is apaurusheya (which is what the astika schools of Hinduism, including most Nyaya philosophers accept). Otherwise assumptions are the root of all knowledge. I tend to use the word assumption and faith and belief interchangeably (which is prob not a good thing but oh well). Obviously a non-Hindu will not accept Vedic authority, but I'm arguing on the basis that the Vedas are apaurusheya (which I and many Dharmic schools, believe that are).


This is why shabd was not a valid pramana when debating with other religions and other philosophical schools that do not accept shabd or certain shabd.
'

When debating across schools with different conceptions of epistemology, you must use a common pranama. It is for this reason that sabda is not used in such debates. But this is a question of communication and debating etiquette not Pramana.

It is only the Mimamsa school that make the claim that Vedas are non-human, not the Vedas or the Upanishads themselves.

This is incorrect. See below for some quotes directly from the Vedas and Upanishads.


ṛgvedo yajurvedaḥ sāmavedo'tharvāṅgirasa itihāsaḥ purāṇam vidyā upaniṣadaḥ ślokāḥ sūtrānyanuvyākhyānāni vyākhyānāni; asyaivaitāni niḥśvasitāni -Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.10

The Rg Veda, Yajur Veda, Sama Veda, the Atharva Veda, the Itihahasa, and Puranas , Srts, Upaniṣads, Verses, aphorisms, elucidations and explanations all appear from His [Brahman's] breath.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistajjajnire sarve divi deva divisritah
(Atharvaveda 11.7.24)

“The Rg, Sama, Yajur, and Atharvaveda, along with the Puranas, and all the demigods appeared from Him [Brahman]”

yo brahmanam vidadhati purvam
yo vai vedams ca prahinoti tasmai
atam ha devam atma-buddhi-prakasam
mumuksur vai saranam aham prapadye


(Svetasvatara Upanisad
6-18)

"Because I desire liberation, let me surrender unto the Lord, who first enlightened Lord Brahma in Vedic knowledge through Lord Brahma's heart. The Lord is the original source of all enlightenment and spiritual advancement."

This fundamental epistemological flaw in shabd was recognised by Shankara, Ramunjacharya and Madhva, which is why they had to use the other two pramanas of perception and reasoning to support what their interpretation of the shabd said. Hence, I submit to you even in our philosophical tradition shabd was never seen as a stand alone pramana. This is why Dharmic religions are not faith based religions.

I agree with you generally here. All the Vedanta Acharyas have declared the Vedas as not having human origins, and they have used the other to pramanas to test it. However this was not my point. My point was that knowledge of Brahman can only be established through Sabda (although other pramanas must be used to make sense of it). You argument does not (to me) seem to attack my points but rather a strawman.

he Hare Krishna sect founded by Prabhupada is not recognised as traditional Hinduism, not even traditional Gaudiya vaishnavism, it is considered neo-Hinduism, because it borrows a lot of themes and ideas from Abrahamic religions e.g. skepticism of science, preaching and missionaries to spread religion, dogmas, and even including conspiracy theories like Illuminati, moon landing hoax and misogyny as well prudish Victorian values. I do not mean to offend you, but I have never been impressed by anything Prabhupada has said. He strikes me as a religious fundamentalist. To even name his version of Bhagvad Gita as "As it is" is similar to the exclusivist claims by evangelicals that only Jesus is the way.

Considered by whom? Prabhupada preached traditional Gaudiya Vedanta philosophy in accordance with the commentaries of the Gaudiya Vedanta Acharyas and even used the commentary of Sridhara Swami (who is far older). Note I'm not part of ISKCON, but rather a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnav, but in terms of siddhanta, it is as traditional as you can get. Our 10 basis principles were identical principles to that of Madhavacharya (because we fall in his line). I'm not going to get into the controversies with you (because I don't even belief hald of them), but I think you are using them sort of as a red herring here. Simply because something shares similarities with Abrahamic religions does not make it not Hindu. There are huge degrees of similarities (and difference) between the two traditions.

I feel you have inherited a lot of your way of thinking about Hinduism and Indian philosophy from the ISCON. It does not reflect traditional classical views.

As someone who has studied the scriptures as well as ancient commentaries from Gaudiya Vaishnav acharyas, I am pretty certain that ISKCON is quite traditional. It is far more traditional then the view of for example Vivekananda or Aurobinda (who were real neo-Vedantins). ISKCON is often misunderstood by a great deal of 'academic' Hindus because I feel they haven't taken the time to read its classical litreture, like the Sandharbhas of Jiva Goswami for example which is a logical and step by step establishment of Gaudiya Philosophy.

To even name his version of Bhagvad Gita as "As it is" is similar to the exclusivist claims by evangelicals that only Jesus is the way.

This has been done for centuries by the commentators of Hinduism. They call criticized opponent philosophers and tried to establish their one as superior by either logical or shastric arguements. Sankaracharya for example attempted to refute all darshanas apart from Vedanta as incorrect. Ramanujacharya and Madhavacharya in turn critisized Sankara's Adwaita and tried to establish their Vaishnav philosophy is topmost. Arguing that exclusiveness in any state is not Dharmic, I feel is ignorant of its history. Hinduism is an umbrella of traditions yes and allows for lots of room, but each school at a fundamental level thinks their philosophy to be best.


The only faith involved here is that the instruments are giving the correct results. However, even that is not faith, because the instruments have to be calibrated precisely based on international standards. There is no faith involved in any of the sciences. It is the complete opposite of faith in fact, it is based on skepticism of testimony. This is why every new scientific discovery goes through rigorous peer review.

I am agreeing on a much deeper level. Have you hear of solipsism? Essentially even international standards are meaningless. The primary input of information to our mind is through the senses. Even if the instruments are calibrated (with some arbitrary universally agreed upon standard), there is faith required on a greater metaphysical level that what your senses are seeing are in fact reality. In a dream we can perceive too, but the dream is false. How can we be sure that this world is not a dream (without some sort of assumption of belief that it is). Scientism (which is the philosophy of science) makes several assumptions which it needs to operate property. These assumptions (such as consistency of laws, accurate interaction of senses with matter, a naturalistic explanation of phenomena etc) rest on belief/faith.


T On the other hand, a statement of faith is morally prescriptive, it tells you to do something purely based on testimonial authority e.g. "Kill the non believers" or "Jews are a subhuman race and need to be exterminated" or "She is a witch, burn her" These are all actual historical examples where the negative consequences of faith are dictated by the faith. Science does not dictate anything(scientists can though)


Okay, I agree, but this doesn't refute my original point. My original point was, The truth of any worldview (whether it is scientific or religious or whatever) is not dependent on its consequences. Yes we may argue that one is superior than another on the basis of consequence, but not of truthfulness. I agree with you analysis, but it is not a good basis for assessing validity of the said sources of evidence.

think you are using 'faith' a bit loosely here. Rather than faith I think we should call it assumption. It is my assumption that when I go on around the loop on the roller coaster I the train will not fall off.


Yeah, I don't think that I am using faith in a Abrahamic sense, but rather very vaguely to mean assumption. That is why I said experiences build our faith. Be beginning by assuming (placing faith) that science works and as a result we are rewarded with experiences that support this. This in turn nourishes our faith in science. In a similiar way, lets say someone assumes the Vedas are true and follows them, and by following them one comes to various realizations which nurture that faith. That person's experiences have now nurtured his initial assumption.

It only becomes a problem when the faith becomes blind (that I will believe in something contrary to my experience or pratyuksha.) That is why I said, all the pramanas should agree, or one of them must be false.


It cannot be achieved just through sharvanam(listening, reading) it has to be followed by mananam(analysis, reflection, contemplation) and finally nidhiyanasam(meditation, testing and integrating in life) Sharvanam is not considered a stand alone step. If that was enough there be no need for the later Mimamsa traditions. The darsanas arose because faith was not enough.

Yes I agree, but my original point was that knowledge of Brahman can only be established through Sravanam and not reflection of testing alone. Sabda is primary then the other pramanas come second and allow us to test that sabda.

First you hear about it from scripture or Guru(testimony) you then critically analyse it, question it, raise doubts and clarify doubts(inference) and finally when you have indubitable knowledge you take up the sadhana(practice) which will give you a direct experience of what scripture is saying(perception) This is also how I came to the Vedic religion..

And I agree with you 100%! Sadhana must yield some result otherwise whats the point right?
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
A circular argument is when the one of the premises is the conclusion. My argument is not circular but rather based upon the assumption that shastra is apaurusheya (which is what the astika schools of Hinduism, including most Nyaya philosophers accept). Otherwise assumptions are the root of all knowledge. I tend to use the word assumption and faith and belief interchangeably (which is prob not a good thing but oh well). Obviously a non-Hindu will not accept Vedic authority, but I'm arguing on the basis that the Vedas are apaurusheya (which I and many Dharmic schools, believe that are).

I agree that this is an assumption that shastra is non-human, but if I ask you to prove that shastra is non-human you have rely on what shastra said. This is what is circular reasoning. However, I think we agree that shastra cannot be used as a pramana for one who does not accept shastra as authority.

When debating across schools with different conceptions of epistemology, you must use a common pranama. It is for this reason that sabda is not used in such debates. But this is a question of communication and debating etiquette not Pramana.

I would argue further, that different pramanas have different epistemic value. If I tell you there is land of gold(Eldardo) you may believe me on faith alone, but there is always be a nagging doubt that maybe I am wrong or maybe I am mistaken. Would you invest your time and energy to go in search of this land based on just my heresay. If I provide further evidence, like some sort of spectroscopic analysis of the land which is showing the presence of massive amounts of god, you would probably be more motivated to spend time and energy, but it is only when you actually go there and see the gold for yourself that you will truly know that the land exists. So perception has the highest epistemic value, inference less than perception, and testimony the least.

Your approach of using only one pramana as sufficient in itself, in this case testimony/shabd is not the classical view of Dharmic philosophy, nor of Vedanta which insist on the triple system of proof sharvanam, mananam and nidhidhyasanam and nor of all the darsanas. This is an Abrahamic attitude. However, unfortunately in modern times Abrahamic assumptions have creeped into our Dharmic religions. I lament this because when I studied Vedanta in India, I felt my guru was more like a priest like in Christianity or Islam, when he answered to everyone of my questions, "have faith" He even taught us "If somebody questions you, just say it is my faith and then nobody can question you" That removes the difference between a Hindu and a Christian or Muslim. If Hinduism is approached like that it becomes the same as any religion and a problem.



This is incorrect. See below for some quotes directly from the Vedas and Upanishads.


ṛgvedo yajurvedaḥ sāmavedo'tharvāṅgirasa itihāsaḥ purāṇam vidyā upaniṣadaḥ ślokāḥ sūtrānyanuvyākhyānāni vyākhyānāni; asyaivaitāni niḥśvasitāni -Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.10

The Rg Veda, Yajur Veda, Sama Veda, the Atharva Veda, the Itihahasa, and Puranas , Srts, Upaniṣads, Verses, aphorisms, elucidations and explanations all appear from His [Brahman's] breath.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistajjajnire sarve divi deva divisritah
(Atharvaveda 11.7.24)

“The Rg, Sama, Yajur, and Atharvaveda, along with the Puranas, and all the demigods appeared from Him [Brahman]”

yo brahmanam vidadhati purvam
yo vai vedams ca prahinoti tasmai
atam ha devam atma-buddhi-prakasam
mumuksur vai saranam aham prapadye


(Svetasvatara Upanisad
6-18)

"Because I desire liberation, let me surrender unto the Lord, who first enlightened Lord Brahma in Vedic knowledge through Lord Brahma's heart. The Lord is the original source of all enlightenment and spiritual advancement."

Thank you for sharing this, however herein you have revealed a problem with shabd which I touched on earlier. You have given me a citation here, but now this citation needs to be interpreted and the interpretation you gave that this is saying all the shastras are non-human, is not the only interpretation. It can only be interpreted to mean that all knowledge originates from Brahman, like Mimamsa says that all words comes from the supreme logos or shabd Brahman. It could also be interpreted to mean, like Abrahamic interpret the divine origins of their religion that the divine spirit inspires humans to write, similarly we can say that the Rishis were inspired by something higher within them, but it still does not mean it was not composed by humans. The general understanding in Hinduism is the Vedas are the writings of Rishis, who are human. As far as I know only in Mimamsa the doctrine of the Vedas being non-human is taught.


I agree with you generally here. All the Vedanta Acharyas have declared the Vedas as not having human origins, and they have used the other to pramanas to test it. However this was not my point. My point was that knowledge of Brahman can only be established through Sabda (although other pramanas must be used to make sense of it). You argument does not (to me) seem to attack my points but rather a strawman.

No, I completely agree that Brahman can only be established through Sabda because Brahman is not an objection of perception or inference. However, in the Kenoupanishad in which we find the famous verse that the eyes cannot go there, the mind cannot go there, it also says it is not the case that Brahman is totally unknowable and nor is Brahman totally knowable, rather Brahman cannot be known "well" This is what allows for Shankara to come up with logical arguments using both methods of affirmation and negation, to prove Brahman exists and the Self is Brahman. He calls this nitya-anitya viveka and atman-anatman viveka which leads to the conclusion that Brahman is the only reality and the Self is Brahman and is of the nature of satchindananda, existence, consciousness and bliss.

Considered by whom? Prabhupada preached traditional Gaudiya Vedanta philosophy in accordance with the commentaries of the Gaudiya Vedanta Acharyas and even used the commentary of Sridhara Swami (who is far older). Note I'm not part of ISKCON, but rather a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnav, but in terms of siddhanta, it is as traditional as you can get. Our 10 basis principles were identical principles to that of Madhavacharya (because we fall in his line). I'm not going to get into the controversies with you (because I don't even belief hald of them), but I think you are using them sort of as a red herring here. Simply because something shares similarities with Abrahamic religions does not make it not Hindu. There are huge degrees of similarities (and difference) between the two traditions.

As someone who has studied the scriptures as well as ancient commentaries from Gaudiya Vaishnav acharyas, I am pretty certain that ISKCON is quite traditional. It is far more traditional then the view of for example Vivekananda or Aurobinda (who were real neo-Vedantins). ISKCON is often misunderstood by a great deal of 'academic' Hindus because I feel they haven't taken the time to read its classical litreture, like the Sandharbhas of Jiva Goswami for example which is a logical and step by step establishment of Gaudiya Philosophy.

I think this is probably not the place to debate whether ISKON can be considered traditional Hinduism, as you accept it is, but then you call into question whether Ramakrishna Maths is traditional Hinduism. I think in both cases we can argue neither are traditional, because they have clear influences from Abrahamic and modern scientific and secular though. This is true of a lot of the 19th century religions movements that took place in India, especially during the Bengali Renaissance movement, an attempt was made to reconcile traditional Hindu thought with modern thought e.g. Kriya Yoga movement of Sri Yuketeshwar, who wrote the 'Holy science' incorporates the mythology of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is definitely not there in traditional Hinduism. If you read the stories of these modern gurus and who they got initiated, they were all just ordinary Indians working for British administration in clerical jobs and had studied Western philosophy and history etc, and then in later life they get initiated by some guru. This is why I do not form my opinions about Hinduism based on the interpretations of some modern sect, but by reading the original primary scriptures myself.


This has been done for centuries by the commentators of Hinduism. They call criticized opponent philosophers and tried to establish their one as superior by either logical or shastric arguements. Sankaracharya for example attempted to refute all darshanas apart from Vedanta as incorrect. Ramanujacharya and Madhavacharya in turn critisized Sankara's Adwaita and tried to establish their Vaishnav philosophy is topmost. Arguing that exclusiveness in any state is not Dharmic, I feel is ignorant of its history. Hinduism is an umbrella of traditions yes and allows for lots of room, but each school at a fundamental level thinks their philosophy to be best.

I agree with you that the darsanas definitely did not share this modern feel good universalist tolerant sentiment, they viciously attacked one another in debates, accused each other of being wrong, atheists. I have to tell this to Hindus myself when they turn around and tell me "You are not a true Hindu, true Hindus accept all religions as equal" I do not accept Abrahamic religions are equal to Dharmic religions. So you are right Srila Prabhupada has every right to give his own commentary, just as Shankara et al did. However, Srila goes beyond that, he actually translates and adds words that are not even there, and then claims that his translation is "As it is" the true version of the Bhagvad Gita. Shankara et al did not do that, they just offered commentaries not translations .

Also not commentaries are equal, some are more justified than others. Why are Shankaras et al commentaries celebrated so much? Because they justified them using perception and inference. On the other hand Prabhuapda's commentaries are rarely ever justified, most of 'As it is' version is pages and pages of him sharing his intolerant and personal views. See: Self Realization: Bhagadvad Gita-As it is or As it is NOT..
 
Top