• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Dharmic Religions Only: Evolutionary Science and Hindu/Buddhist worldviews.

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay Sayakji you are fully entitled to that assertion. I personally don't believe that it is a valid refutation, because I think it issues a blanket statement over all archaeological and anthropological findings in the 18th and 19th century. It implies that archaeologists living at that time didn't know what they were doing. If this is the case, then we must also remove the all important findings from those 18th and early 19th century from modern textbooks. I strongly believe that something which claims to be "open-minded" like science must not be selective. If evidence is presented with goes against a dominant theory it must not be rejected simply because it goes the predominating theory. Like I have said before, evidence must make theory not the other way around. I really hope you understand my position (and why I have found these evidences convincing) because I don't really want to continue this arguing.

I really respect you and your knowledge on this matter and you are one of the only people on this thread who is actually presenting arguments and encouraging discussion instead of making this into a personal attack on others schools. I would like to thank you for that, and that is why I am continuing to post on this thread so we can come to a mutual understanding. As I have said there is a large scriptural reason why is reject evolution (by which I mean evolution from single cellular organisms to modern humans). However there is some evidence which does back us up, and that is what I am trying to present. As for the findings being verified, I find that for many cases Cremo goes through the verification of the artifacts via modern means (modern dating of Strata etc). Ultimately it is a personal decision, what evidence finally does convince one in the end.
I do not have the book by Mr. Cremo, so I will rely on you to present specific examples and run through how it was analyzed in the past and in the modern times by scientists. I have access to scientific papers, so I can look at the primary sources if they have been digitized.
It is not a categorical denial of older works. Its just that for older works, we have to very careful in separating wheat from the chaff, even from the same scientists. I would trust older conclusions if modern scientists have relooked at the sites and confirmed the older conclusions. I think much of the evidence Mr. Cremo is citing is based on poor fieldwork done at a time when good understanding of how to carefully preserve the note the provenance of the fossils was absent. Neither the field of geology nor the field of ecology was well developed (dating techniques were unknown, plate tectonics was unknown, nobody has even started studying ecology as a systematic science and had no idea how to connect the various fossils found in a site together, there was no basic understanding on how exactly do sedimentary rocks form and fault through plate deformations etc. etc.). The reason I do not trust early scientists is not that they had somehow less skill than people working today, they simply did not possess the tools that could help them get the correct interpretation of what they were uncovering. They got nice fossils, but their explanation of the context of the fossils (where, when, what, how, why) were almost always wrong. Paleontology, unlike physics and much like forensics, is a science that depends on other sciences a lot. Geology, minerology, ecology, climatology, planetary sciences, dating technology etc. While it is not absolutely dependent on them, it really needs these other sciences to get it right to get its own conclusions about fossils and ancient ecosystems right. And we know that half of these sciences were non-existent or were wrong about absolutely everything 60 years ago. I would say that since the time of Newton till about 1950-1960, the only true science was physics and everything else (like chemistry and biology) was more of science wannabes. With the explication of the quantum foundations of chemistry and the unification of organic and inorganic chemical principles, chemistry emerged as a pure science from about 1950 onwards making its sub-disciplines (mineralogy etc.) true quantitative sciences. With the coming of molecular genetics, bio-physics and bio-chemistry of cells, developmental biology and quantitative evolutionary and ecological biology as well as germ theory of disease, biology and its associated disciplines emerge as a coherent science only from 1980 onwards. Social sciences, psychology, economics are still science wannabes.
In case this seems arbitrary, let me explain how I make the distinction between pre-scientific and scientific phases.
In any field of science look at the fundamental unit of study and ask if the science has a quantitative model of that unit that tells you how, what, why, when of its past and future behavior.
In physics this unit has 4 interconnected entities:- space, time, matter, energy. The first quantitative model of these 4 comes from Newton and his work launches physics as a true science (even though Galileo and others who came before him did a lot of good work, the absence of this quantitative model makes their works before physics as a proper science).
In chemistry, this unit is the molecule. Even though descriptive features of chemical reactions had been investigated from 17th century onwards (Dalton, Lavoisier etc.) the quantitative model of molecules that explains how all molecules behave had to wait the periodic table, the explication of atoms by modern physics and rise of quantum mechanics that explains chemical change through changes in energy levels of electrons. All of this came together only after 1940.
In biology, the unit is the cell. The explication of the cell is very very recent and had to wait for advances in genetics, analysis of proteins, better microscopes that can look inside a cell in real time. It is only in the last 20 years that one can say that cells are becoming well enough understood to build quantitative models for it very basic functions.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Some more about Cremo (yes, I know that I would not waste my time, but I was offered this):

Cremo, M. A. (2005) "Beijing Man and the Rockefeller Foundation." 22nd International Congress for History of Science. Beijing, China. July 25

http://www.mcremo.com/lectures.html

Just paste the paper into search (crtl+f) and you will see he did list this as if he was there. As for the 20th the site is gone so I can not confirm nor deny he was there. However all he did was bring up a dead subject. He talked about a known fraud as if it wasn't. All he does is argue for finding from the 18th and 19th centuries but nothing modern as the modern field has refuted his research decades ago. Cremo is the Hindu version of a Christian Creationist.

http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_intro/faked_foss_prim.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#abbeville
http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_expose/the_missing_link.html



It doesn't say whether he has an associate membership (open to anyone) or full (open to professionals).
Since he has zero degrees in archaeology he can not be a full member.

The relevance to Cremo in the 22th is that he listed a lecture before the conference happened. Just compare the dates of his lecture with the dates of the event on the conference website.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
All he does is argue for finding from the 18th and 19th centuries but nothing modern as the modern field has refuted his research decades ago. Cremo is the Hindu version of a Christian Creationist.

Dr Lepper has something similar to say about this -

The motivation of the authors, "members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, a branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness" (p. xix), is to find support in the data of paleoanthropology and archaeology for the Vedic scriptures of India. Their methods are borrowed from fundamentalist Christian creationists (whom they assiduously avoid citing). They catalog odd "facts" which appear to conflict with the modern scientific understanding of human evolution....

The full text is here -
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/lepper.html
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Brief Snapshot of an Ancient Ecosystem 1

Introduction

One of the key principles emphasized in evolutionary biology is that life forms have altered significantly through time over successive generations due to genetic mutations that have been pruned by natural selections. For big animals and plants, this means new species (reproductively isolated populations) with characteristics and behaviors have emerged over the generations that look quite different from older ancestral species from which they descend over millions of years.

In previous posts I have shown lab experiments that show artificially induced selection pressures can often cause dramatic alterations in form and behavior of descendants from their ancestors. The example I used was the emergence of multicellular yeast from unicellular ancestors.

But the force of the evolutionary argument would be diluted if I could not show that

1) The natural world (like climate) can change quite drastically over time making it possible for natural selection to happen and,

2) Ancient ecosystems (plants and animals) look very very different from their modern counterparts.


Because I want to connect my posts to the evolution of two key groups of modern mammals, whales and primates (monkey, ape, humans) I will ignore the dinosaurs and start after they had all died out or moved to the skies (as birds). I will start 56 million years ago at an age called Eocene. This Eocene epoch lasts from 56-34 million years and is key to the origin of many modern mammals (according to evolution at least). And I will try, as much as possible, to describe entire fossil beds pertaining to a given period (or subperiod) of history at a given location. Just as a person, isolated from the culture and history it belongs to, loses much of her identity, so does a fossil. A fossil is always found with other fossils within a certain rock type overlaid by and underlaid with other rock types that may or may not contain fossils. All that is present and all that could have been present but is absent from such a site provides the vital context that makes it possible to reconstruct the correct inference (pramana) from this historical assemblage of dead plants and animals. As Nyaya philosophers had said, absences are as real and informative as presences.

Example 1: Ancient Ecosystem in Arctic Canada (53-38 million years ago)

Location:- The location the researchers are investigating is at the very top of Canada. Its called Elesmere island. Look at the map in the link. Large portions of the island is understandably covered in ice. As wiki states :- “Large portions of Ellesmere Island are covered with glaciers and ice, with Manson Icefield (6,200 km2 or 2,400 sq mi) and Sydkap (3,700 km2 or 1,400 sq mi) in the south;Prince of Wales Icefield(20,700 km2 or 8,000 sq mi) and Agassiz Ice Cap(21,500 km2 or 8,300 sq mi) along the central-east side of the island, and the Northern Ellesmere icefields (24,400 km2 or 9,400 sq mi). "

The daily mean temperature in the ice free areas is around 6 C in July and -37 C in January.

There is a small research base called Eureka in the island where paleontologists (and others) do research.
Fossil Bed and Climate:- There is a rich fossil strata in Ellesmere island that has been dated to early Eocene (53-38 million years ago). The fossil bed is called Eureka-Sound group and can be found throughout this island. This sedimentary rock preserve evidence of warm swamp-like climate filled with large trees like Redwoods, Cypress, Pine, Spruce, Cedar, and deciduous trees like birch, alder, walnut. The sediment beds also contain lots of species that fit this warm, moist swampy habitat and contain ancient and extinct types of alligators, turtles, primates, rhinoceros-like brontotheres and hippo like coryphodon. Reconstruction of the continents using magnetic data in the rocks show that the island (then connected with both Greenland and Canada) was more or less in the same latitude and longitude. The number of sites present is large (30-40) with a lot of fossils all consistent with a much warmer Arctic. Several independent measures of temperature,( based on the trees present, kind of flowers that were growing, how much the leaves have serrated to smooth edges, types of bacteria metabolic signatures in the fossil soil and isotope analysis of teeth of fossil animals) all converge to a mean summer temperature of 20-25 C and a mean winter temperature of 0-5 C with lots of rain (140 cm/yr) and humidity (70-90%) in the summer months. The fossils and climate data show that a warm, humid, temperate rain forest thrived in the high-Canadian Arctic between 53-38 million years with no ice anywhere in the region.
Enough for this post. The complete absence of cold adapted arctic plants and animals and the presence of warm adapted temperate animals and plants millions of years ago in such a high latitude location, provides good evidence of the drastic shifts in climate that is the driver of natural selection.


I will look at the fossil sites in more detail in the next few posts to see what kind of animals are present and what are absent from this strata of fossils.

Reference:-
Life at the top of the greenhouse Eocene world—
A review of the Eocene fl ora and vertebrate
fauna from Canada’s High Arctic
Jaelyn J. Eberle1,† and David R. Greenwood2
1University of Colorado Museum of Natural History, Geological Sciences, 265 UCB, Boulder, Colorado 80309, USA
2Department of Biology, Brandon University, 270-18th Street, Brandon, Manitoba R7A 6A9, Canada


 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
And it is sad to see people reject even admissible pieces of evidence, under the dogmatic ideology that is known as Darwanism. Even Dr Lepper's criticism is hilarious because it is essential a knowledge filter; "I will reject the evidence, whether it is valid or not, simply because it goes against modern theory". By all means reject the evidence, however don't reject it because it goes against modern evolutionary theory, reject it because it may be possible flawed (for which no adequate reason as been presented by anyone, except maybe Sayakji and I respect his viewpoint). Theory should not drive evidence, rather it should be the other way around. If science fails to do this, it becomes as rigid as religion. As for LuisDantasji and shivomasekharji, I don't think they are as "open-minded" as they would lead one to believe. Attacking an author in noway reduces the credibility of an argument, especially if he is providing evidence which is referenced (testimony is different).I have nothing else to gain by staying here, therefore I take your leave. For those open-minded individuals out there, read the evidence for yourself and decide. It certainly persuaded me.

Daso'smi :praying::praying:
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And it is sad to see people reject even admissible pieces of evidence, under the dogmatic ideology that is known as Darwanism. Even Dr Lepper's criticism is hilarious because it is essential a knowledge filter; "I will reject the evidence, whether it is valid or not, simply because it goes against modern theory". By all means reject the evidence, however don't reject it because it goes against modern evolutionary theory, reject it because it may be possible flawed (for which no adequate reason as been presented by anyone, except maybe Sayakji and I respect his viewpoint). Theory should not drive evidence, rather it should be the other way around. If science fails to do this, it becomes as rigid as religion. As for LuisDantasji and shivomasekharji, I don't think they are as "open-minded" as they would lead one to believe. Attacking an author in noway reduces the credibility of an argument, especially if he is providing evidence which is referenced (testimony is different).I have nothing else to gain by staying here, therefore I take your leave. For those open-minded individuals out there, read the evidence for yourself and decide. It certainly persuaded me.

Daso'smi :praying::praying:
I have no problem in changing my views. I will simply state that new discoveries of modern-looking human bones and/or material artifacts (like ceramics) that can be dated before 2 million years with careful catalogue and preservation of the dig site conducted by a full-fledged team of paleo-anthropologists, geologists, ecologists, archaeologists (as is the case for all modern digs) would be much more convincing. Given the sheer number of absolute dating methods currently available, I see no reason why such a find cannot be dated with unambiguous certainty.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_5.htm
RadioCarbon = 0-50,000 yrs (requires carbon)
Amino Acid Racemization= 10 yrs -1.5 million yr( corals, shells, calcium etc.)
Optically Simulated Luminescence = 10 yrs - 500,000 yrs (all types of sands, flints, hearths)
Thermoluminescence = 0-300,000 years (all pottery, kilns, bricks)
U/Th dating= 10-500,000 years (eggshell, teeth, bones, carbonates
Electron Spin Resonance = 1000 - 1 million years (teeth, coral, flint, volcanic quartz, marine carbonates)
Fission track dating:- 0.1-2 billion years (volcanic glass, apatite, glass, mica, zircon. The time they last cooled to below 200 C)
U/PB especially useful to date rocks that have zircon in them (0.1 - 4.5 billion years)
There are lots of others.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
How so? Kamma is about the consequences of wholesome and unwholesome behaviour, whereas natural selection is about how successfully organisms adapt to their environment. Adaptive behaviour isn't necessarily wholesome, and may well be unwholesome.

Kamma is about intent. Environmental pressures will shape what organisms want and need.

A simple example of environment shaping intent is diet. What do you eat? Well, where you live has a huge impact on this. People who live in the middle of the Sahara probably don't eat a lot of fish, while people who live on a coast may eat fish daily.
 
Last edited:

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
As for LuisDantasji and shivomasekharji, I don't think they are as "open-minded" as they would lead one to believe.

I will readily change my view in the face of new evidence. And that is what is being open-minded.

Can you, though? Before you learnt about Cremo/Thompson, you were a Hare Krishna, led to believe that the Bhagavatam tales were actual facts. Cremo came later and naturally you would relate to his ideas as he was - just like you - led to believe that the Bhagavatam fables were hard facts. Do you see the problem? How then, can you (or Cremo) be open minded? You cannot change your views in the light of new evidence. You are held hostage by the Bhagavatam version of history. All you can do is walk away, saying your Guru's version of history overrides any evidence.

There is a big difference between us. I approach the subject to know the truth - whatever it may be. You approach it with the background of a religious ideology and you can only accept evidence that aligns with your preconceived notions. You can decide on which of the two is more open minded.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I have no problem in changing my views. I will simply state that new discoveries of modern-looking human bones and/or material artifacts (like ceramics) that can be dated before 2 million years with careful catalogue and preservation of the dig site conducted by a full-fledged team of paleo-anthropologists, geologists, ecologists, archaeologists (as is the case for all modern digs) would be much more convincing. Given the sheer number of absolute dating methods currently available, I see no reason why such a find cannot be dated with unambiguous certainty.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/time/time_5.htm
RadioCarbon = 0-50,000 yrs (requires carbon)
Amino Acid Racemization= 10 yrs -1.5 million yr( corals, shells, calcium etc.)
Optically Simulated Luminescence = 10 yrs - 500,000 yrs (all types of sands, flints, hearths)
Thermoluminescence = 0-300,000 years (all pottery, kilns, bricks)
U/Th dating= 10-500,000 years (eggshell, teeth, bones, carbonates
Electron Spin Resonance = 1000 - 1 million years (teeth, coral, flint, volcanic quartz, marine carbonates)
Fission track dating:- 0.1-2 billion years (volcanic glass, apatite, glass, mica, zircon. The time they last cooled to below 200 C)
U/PB especially useful to date rocks that have zircon in them (0.1 - 4.5 billion years)
There are lots of others.

Thanks you Sayakji, it was a pleasure conversing with you. Hopefully it has given you a greater understanding of our tradition.:praying::praying::praying: Nitai Gaur Haribol!
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
33% of americans think evolution is myth acc. to recent survey, they all have their reasons because no one saw evolution except darwin and his monkey gang and brainwashed people who think their parents/ancestos are apes/chimps/
/
life had no beginning as indeed the universe had no beginning it always existed, nor will it ever have an end.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
And it is sad to see people reject even admissible pieces of evidence, under the dogmatic ideology that is known as Darwanism. Even Dr Lepper's criticism is hilarious because it is essential a knowledge filter; "I will reject the evidence, whether it is valid or not, simply because it goes against modern theory". By all means reject the evidence, however don't reject it because it goes against modern evolutionary theory, reject it because it may be possible flawed (for which no adequate reason as been presented by anyone, except maybe Sayakji and I respect his viewpoint). Theory should not drive evidence, rather it should be the other way around. If science fails to do this, it becomes as rigid as religion.

With all due respect, you seem to be giving a lot more importance than anyone should to certain heavily biased and uninformed claims that run around.

As for LuisDantasji and shivomasekharji, I don't think they are as "open-minded" as they would lead one to believe.

I have no interest in being so "open-minded" as to disregard fact and evidence, if that is what you mean, and I am sorry if anyone had the wrong impression on that respect. Nor am I friendly to misinformation and superstition.

Whether that is a good thing or not is for every person to decide on his or her own.

Attacking an author in no way reduces the credibility of an argument, especially if he is providing evidence which is referenced (testimony is different).
True enough. And entirely irrelevant to the subject at hand, since the arguments proper are what is hurting the author's credibility, not the other way around.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Brief Snapshot of an Ancient Ecosystem 1

Introduction

One of the key principles emphasized in evolutionary biology is that life forms have altered significantly through time over successive generations due to genetic mutations that have been pruned by natural selections. For big animals and plants, this means new species (reproductively isolated populations) with characteristics and behaviors have emerged over the generations that look quite different from older ancestral species from which they descend over millions of years.

In previous posts I have shown lab experiments that show artificially induced selection pressures can often cause dramatic alterations in form and behavior of descendants from their ancestors. The example I used was the emergence of multicellular yeast from unicellular ancestors.

But the force of the evolutionary argument would be diluted if I could not show that

1) The natural world (like climate) can change quite drastically over time making it possible for natural selection to happen and,

2) Ancient ecosystems (plants and animals) look very very different from their modern counterparts.


....................
The Night Forests of Ancient Arctic
It is quite interesting that one of the best preserved fossil forests has been found in this Arctic Island that is dated to this 50-40 million year old time range. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/03/0326_020326_TVredwoods.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Heiberg_Island (Axel island is located just west of Ellesmere and has the same Ellesmere sound group rocks where these forests are found).
"During the summer of 1986, a Canadian expedition headed by Dr James Basinger set out to investigate a very unusual fossil forest on Axel Heiberg. The findings of these and subsequent expeditions have since been popularly reported in Canada.[4][5][6] Over 40 million years ago during the Eocene era, a forest of tall trees flourished on Axel Heiberg island. The trees reached up to 35 metres in height; some may have grown for 500 to 1,000 years. At the time, the polar climate was warm, but the winters were still continuously dark for three months long. As the trees fell, the fine sediment in which the forest grew protected the plants. Instead of turning into petrified "stone" fossils, they were ultimately mummified by the cold, dry Arctic climate, and only recently exposed by erosion.[7]"

"During the Eocene epoch, Axel Heiberg and much of northern Siberia and Alaska were covered in temperate forests with redwood-like trees called Metasequoias, similar to those now seen in Northern California.

The trees were between 30 and 40 meters tall (98 and 131 feet) and densely packed, providing a canopy for a plethora of ferns and flowers, said Jahren. The largest tree found had a diameter of three meters (ten feet). What remains of these ancient redwoods today is "rather extraordinary," said Jahren."

The forest covering of much of the high Arctic with such evergreen trees is very interesting, because despite the warm weather, these regions still had 4 months of near total darkness during winter. Modern tress cannot survive such long periods of dark even if the temperature is warm, but their distant relatives in those ice-free times thrived under these conditions. One of the interesting questions for paleotologists is to find out what kind of evolutionary pressures these produced on the trees and the animals who continued to live in these night forests during winter.

What kind of animals lived in these forests?
A Lot of fossil mammals have been discovered in these forests. They include:-
1) Small and cute looking two-legged jumping insectivores belonging to the family of Leptictids.http://walkingwithdinos.wikia.com/wiki/Leptictidium who lived through the extinction of the dinosaurs. This group contained a lot of individual species who hunted insects in the dark lower reaches of dense forests like those found in these islands. The entire group went extinct 40 million years ago, living no descendants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptictida
2) Another common mammal was a rat/squirrel like animal called Neoplagiaulax (http://dinopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Neoplagiaulax) . These guys belonged to one of the truly great orders of mammals, the multituberculates. The longest lived and most diverse mammalian group ever in history, they were marsupial (think kangaroo) equivalents of rats and squirrels whose fossil record starts from early Jurassic (160 million years past) and continued till 30 million years past. http://www.paleocene-mammals.de/multis.htm . As the links show, while they supercially look similar to squirrels or rats, they are indeed very very different, and get their own order quite seperate from all current mammalian orders. Unfortunately by 30 million years, the coming of ice ages and true rats and squirrels began put pressure on all these masupial species and this entire diverse group went completely extinct.
3) Some of the very early rodents(modern forms are rats, squirrels) make their appearance in these forests. These belong to the earliest extinct group of rodents called Ischromyds. A species of this kind is shown in the link below. https://cumuseum.colorado.edu/exhibits/objects/giant-mouse-ischyromys . This group of rodents also went extinct 25 million years ago.
4) This was a warm, wet area with lots of lakes and shallow seas. In these small otter like mammals belonging to the now extinct group Pantolestidae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantolestidae) that were very successful as the equivalents of beavers and otters of their day before they too went completely extinct. https://books.google.com/books?id=_...ids&pg=PA171#v=onepage&q=pantolestids&f=false (chapter 5).

Most the species listed here belonged to entire successful orders that have went extinct completely, but one also see some of the earliest ancestors of currently existing mammals like rodents beginning to appear. However, in no case do we find species that one would find in a modern forest today, either distant ancestors or completely different groups that no longer have any living descendants. This shows the kind of turnover of species and groups due to the continuous effect of natural selection as the climate changes and the continents move around the world.

I will write about other species in the next post.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Not a single solid proof of evolution till now...still waiting...
You should look for it where it is. I am sure I have recommended this already, but just in case.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-tutorials-on-the-theory-of-evolution.100967/

Actually, you should take a general look in the whole Evo vs Creo area, although it is something of a double-edge sword to even have it. The very existence of such an area lends anti-evolutionism, unproperly called "Creationism", a first glance appearance of respectability that goes way beyond what it truly deserves.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
33% of americans think evolution is myth acc. to recent survey

And the other 67% reject your view. That was a real dumb statement to make as the numbers are not on your side.

one saw evolution except darwin and his monkey gang and brainwashed people who think their parents/ancestos are apes/chimps/

You are far worse, dude. You believed Yajur veda teaches numbers without checking your facts and picked up egg on your face when I challenged you for proof.

Note that we think the same about your ancestors too...not just ours.
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
How so? Kamma is about the consequences of wholesome and unwholesome behaviour, whereas natural selection is about how successfully organisms adapt to their environment. Adaptive behaviour isn't necessarily wholesome, and may well be unwholesome.
hey Spiny, what is your opinion from buddhist perspective ? I do not think buddhism is compatible with evolutionist theories, not sure

--Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What I think you may be doing is applying a distorted epistemological standard to your arguments. You still haven't pointed out to me how evolution is supported by Pratyaksha. Until that can be done, taking Sabda version of creation is not a problem at all. I have already told you the flaws I personally have found in evolutionary theory, and how even the evidence presented by Sayak ji is not conclusive evidence for only evolution.
I included an example of evolution in the lab where unicellular yeast converted into a new multicellular species.
(Post 39) with a video that shows the transition.
In plants, speciation through hybridization and gene duplication is quite common. One has been recently observed.
Mimulus plants were introduced into the UK in the 19th century. The two main established species are M. guttatus and M. luteus. M. gutattus has 14 pairs of chromosomes, while M. luteus would appear to have undergone chromosome duplication – it has 30 or 31 pairs. These two species can cross, but their hybrids, which are triploid (ie they have three copies of each chromosome, rather than two) are sterile.
Vallejo-Marín reports that the new species, M. peregrinus has six copies of each chromosome (you can identify the chromosomes by their shape and distinctive banding, and count the amount of DNA in the plant, which shows up as a threefold higher than M. guttatus) – and apparently developed after a chromosome duplication event in a triploid hybrid. These six copies can now pair up quite normally during the creation of the haploid gametes, producing gametes that each have 46 chromosomes (as against 14 in M. guttatus). The new plant, which is known only from the banks of Shortcleuch Waters, Leadhills, South Lanarkshire, has yellow flowers and rather spikey leaves.
It is clearly different from the two other Mimulus species that are already present here, and from their triploid sterile hybrid. These new plants are inter-fertile, and isolated from other closely related species. They form a new species, one that has popped up on the banks of this stream in Scotland:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/speciation-observed-again/
In animals, speciation occurs slower. But the painstaking study of finches conducted continuously for over 40 years in an island has unearthed the entire trajectory of the slow emergence and creation of a new reproductively isolated species in that island.
http://www.wired.com/2009/11/speciation-in-action/
A popular level description of this extremely good quality work that led to the observation of speciatioon in birds in realtime can be found in this book
https://books.google.com/books?id=0JSoAgAAQBAJ&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s

I consider these examples to be examples of pratyaksha pramana for evolution.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram prabhu ji's

out of decency and respect to sayaK ji's request , that I try to listen to the argument in favour of Evolution , ....
I have done my best to wade through the first three pages , ...past that point I canot go on , ...Having already put forward my understanding of the matter I know already that it will only be understood by those willing to understand or who are at least prepaired to listen , ....

However fortunatly @ameyAtmA ji has spoken for me , ...by saying , ....


Sayakji, please see post #18 - it does not reject the 5th veda i.e. purAN, and also accepts the basic general idea of the biological evolution as a partial material side-effect of the spiritual evolution. The details of scientific reports may have to be improved, as the change is not linear but multi-dimensional. e.g. homo-erectus ---> homo-sapiens may be an over-simplification of the reality.

Having tried to explain my thoughts earlier , Having tried to put forth the proposition that Evolutionist are concerned with the study of mater alone , ..and that as matter is all that can be found the missconception has become increasingly more common place that Matter is all that there is , ..
''biological evolution as a partial material side-effect of the spiritual evolution.''...at least I am not alone in this thought, ...my only reservation to the evolutionary theorists is that having discovered only a part of the complete picture , ..have in their enthusiasm and over eagerness , my veiw filled in the missing peices with conjecture , ....


As you would know, different schools of Indian thought weigh scripture differently. That is not a problem.I have no issues with anyone believing in things science is silent on as science works with only observable phenomena and inferences from such observations. But science has definite conclusions from what it has observed so far in the world, and as long as you are happy that those conclusions were arrived at using correct principles of logic and inference, there is no difference of opinion between you and me.

observable phenomena , being material matter , ....in which case what more needs to be done than to Catalogue material evidence , what need is ther to string together individual discoveries on a thread of conjecture ? ...how can one arrive at conclusions where matter is concerned by the use of Logic ?, ..the only correct principle would be to have no oppinion but simply to record found objects , ...having admitted that Science concerns it self with observable phenomena alone then it will allways be an incomplete Science , the supreme Science is that revealed By Sri Krsna , and refered to in the Gita , ...

sri-bhagavan uvaca
imam vivasvate yogam
proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha
manur iksvakave 'bravit

The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.

Bhagavad Gita ..Ch ..4 V ..1

the same complete supreme Science is Contained within Vedam , ....therefore anything but the complete science must be by its very nature of its incompleteness be non authorititive

Fact or opinion?
Puranas are inline with Vedam and hence supreme authority.. You are getting confused

Agreed , ....material evidence proves only the outer casing of the being , it says nithing of the Beings inteligence or Consciousness , Vedam if studied with a pure untainted heart reveals infinatly more , ...and by pure heart I mean witout Bias of oppinion or any trace of false ego , ....

If anything, early Buddhism teaches the potential for both evolution, and devolution - not directly as a result of genetic selection, but through personal volitional choice.

That is, if one chooses skillful behavior, one can expect to personally evolve; if one chooses unskillful behavior, then to devolve.

Agreed , ....but here we are speaking of the evolution of Consciousness , ...of which Evolution on a material level is a mere shadow , ..it is the empty carcas which gives us little indication of the true nature of life and little understanding of Eternality , .....

I am sorry to have disssapointed you by not reading the entire thread through , ....but to me , such topics are a deviation from the true Sadhana be that of a Buddhist or a Hindu , .....
 
Top