Did Any of the Authors of the Gospels Know Jesus?

[Alceste]

I stated that because the mythicist use it as a scapegoat.

It needs to be addressed in context, instead of abused.


There are credible scholars, and my position tries to mirror the most current up to date scholarships as a whole.


example, apologetic scholars will try to claim the resurrection is factual, when that is not really a historical position to be made. That is not credible work. And it is what they are [the mythicist] claiming ALL scholarships are equated too.

I think you're going to have to name whoever it is you're complaining about, maybe introduce a link or two that makes the arguments you're arguing against, otherwise there's not much to talk about with you in this thread.

 

[outhouse]

I think you're going to have to name whoever it is you're complaining about, maybe introduce a link or two that makes the arguments you're arguing against, otherwise there's not much to talk about with you in this thread.

Look at the post above, not even a mythcist, yet relies on apologetic scholars to make claims not followed by the majority.

In his case, he uses them to make the claim there were witnesses to the gospels.

There are plenty of apologetic scholars that want to pervert history to meet their theological needs

 

[outhouse]

Originally Posted by steeltoes
None of the authors of the gospels even knew Jesus, again, this isn't science, there are no facts as it concerns Jesus, here the academic consensus you defer to is made up of Christians for the most part, Christians that have a vested interest in Jesus having really walked on earth.




Another is steeltoes

He uses this known apologetic bias and tries to apply it to all scholars. It does not apply.

Christian apologetic scholars do not make up the consensus, they are disounted for what they are.


You getting the context now?

 

[Alceste]

Look at the post above, not even a mythcist, yet relies on apologetic scholars to make claims not followed by the majority.

In his case, he uses them to make the claim there were witnesses to the gospels.

There are plenty of apologetic scholars that want to pervert history to meet their theological needs

OK, then I will leave you and old badger to work it out between yourselves.

 

[steeltoes]

Originally Posted by steeltoes
None of the authors of the gospels even knew Jesus, again, this isn't science, there are no facts as it concerns Jesus, here the academic consensus you defer to is made up of Christians for the most part, Christians that have a vested interest in Jesus having really walked on earth.




Another is steeltoes

He uses this known apologetic bias and tries to apply it to all scholars. It does not apply.

Christian apologetic scholars do not make up the consensus, they are disounted for what they are.


You getting the context now?

Since when does "for the most part" equate to "all scholars"?

Your reading comprehension skills are the problem.

 

[steeltoes]

Hi....again....
But that shows an agenda within yourself, no?
.......... because you do not have the same urge to know what makes people so sure that he did not.
And so your stance of 'may have, may not have' is a camouflage of some kind? A ploy?

Mark's report is hard to dismiss, so strong that it was copied into other reports, and although it was adjusted afterwards, any detached researcher would find 'on the balance of probabilities' that it was a true account and that Jesus lived, had a mission and was executed.

So I ask........ 'Would you be prepared to step-up your 'may have' towards 'probably did'?

I have read popular books by well known scholars that attempt to explain how it is that Jesus existed. It becomes self evident that there is a problem of Jesus' existence when volumes have to be written to convince us that he existed.

 

[steeltoes]

Did any of the authors of the Gospels know Jesus in life? My impression is that none of them did. But I'm wondering if that impression is wrong.

Please stick to topic and refrain from debating the question of whether or not Jesus existed. If you want to debate that, start your own thread please.

Not only did the gospel authors not know Jesus but it can be shown that the gospel writers relied on gMark for the bulk of their story. I showed that Mark got his 'feeding the multitudes' story from the OT, Kings 2 and that he drew from Psalm 22 and Amos 8 to create the crucifixion scene. Those are two of many examples that could account for most of Mark's story.

This does not comment on Jesus' existence, ideas of existence are up to the individual to consider, besides, the elephant in the room is off topic.

What I think that can be demonstrated is that no one that ever wrote of Jesus actually met the guy.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

i found this:

i thought John and Matthew were Jesus's apostles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_testament

In the period extending roughly from AD 50 to 150, a number of documents began to circulate among the churches, including epistles, gospel accounts, memoirs, prophecies, homilies, and collections of teachings. While some of these documents were apostolic in origin, others drew upon the tradition the apostles and ministers of the word had utilized in their individual missions.

 

[outhouse]

i found this:

i thought John and Matthew were Jesus's apostles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_testament

From your link.

None of the Gospel authors is thought to be an eyewitness, and none claims to be. There is a broad consensus that many of the books of the New Testament were not written by the people whose names are attached to them.[29]

 

[Jeremy Mason]

From your link.

Who created these books?

 

[Alceste]

Who created these books?

Scholarly Greeks, about 40-100 years after Christ's death.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Scholarly Greeks, about 40-100 years after Christ's death.

40-100 years after! You give an earlier date than Wikipedia. Interesting. I'm studying the fall of Alexandria. Got any info?

PM me, please.

 

[Alceste]

40-100 years after! You give an earlier date than Wikipedia. Interesting. I'm studying the fall of Alexandria. Got any info?

PM me, please.

Whoops, I meant to type 70 - 100. And I got it from wikipedia myself.

 

[oldbadger]

I have read popular books by well known scholars that attempt to explain how it is that Jesus existed. It becomes self evident that there is a problem of Jesus' existence when volumes have to be written to convince us that he existed.

OK.....
I have only read four books written by scholars:-
Most of my reading and studying has been from the Internet. The only books I have read have been by scholars such as Vermes, Sanders, Crosson and Grant. I don't know what numbers their books sold in but they definitely won't make the top forty list in Tesco's displays. Three of these seemed as if detached and objective. The fourth offered brilliant suggestions and was hardly 'die-hard' Christian.

So I could not guess what popular books you have read, or why you read them in preference to HJ scholars. You are more entrenched in this subject than 'popular books selling to us'.

Will you give us the opportunity to guide you away from your 'may have, may not have' stance and lead you into the 'did not', 'was not' camp?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Whoops, I meant to type 70 - 100. And I got it from wikipedia myself.

Ahhh...ok.

 

[oldbadger]

................ he drew from Psalm 22 and Amos 8 to create the crucifixion scene. Those are two of many examples that could account for most of Mark's story.

I must rush this post and go to work, hence a single selection from your post.

You can do better than this, Steeltoes. :yes:
So a keen evangelist, wishing to connect a true report with old prophesies, pops in the 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?' scene, together with the 'Sun go down and darken the Earth.....' scene from Amos, and then you bundle (bungle) your findings together and attempt to string the whole report into myth....? An agenda filled bias that all can see.

Mark would have been circa 15yrs - 60 yrs of age when G-Mark was writ, and although he may not have been the author, he surely could have been the reciter of the oral traditions, together with his own memories and Cephas's notes.

Now, all you need to do (to convince me) is to destroy my 'could have'.... want to try?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The only books I have read have been by scholars such as Vermes, Sanders, Crosson and Grant.

… but not "Vermes, Sanders, Crosson and Grant"?

You know, you don't lose points by actually referencing the actual books and their actual authors. ​

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You can do better than this, Steeltoes. :yes:
So a keen evangelist, wishing to connect a true report with old prophesies, pops in the 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?' scene, together with the 'Sun go down and darken the Earth.....' scene from Amos, and then you bundle (bungle) your findings together and attempt to string the whole report into myth....? An agenda filled bias that all can see.

Well, not all can see it. It doesn't look like an agenda-filled bias to me but rather the most reasonable explanation of the evidence. The writer of Mark seems to have created at least parts of the Jesus story from material found in the old Jewish scriptures.

I don't think an eyewitness would do that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well, the Torah wasn't penned until later, after Jesus, so I'm not sure you can make those assumptions.
Just look up when the bible books were penned.

I have to think that those Jewish scriptures preceded the time of Jesus, at least orally. If not, it would mean that the Jews plagiarized the Jesus story, rather than the other way around... which I find incredible.

But I could be wrong, in which case I'd like to hear about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, the Torah wasn't penned until later, after Jesus, so I'm not sure you can make those assumptions.

What destructive force compels you to make thoughtless, idiotic claims?

"The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian exilic period (c. 600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period (c. 400 BCE)." [source]​