Did Christ really exist ?

[Skywalker]

I have no disagreement with that.

The result is odd, though, not a single eyewitness, five different Jesuses which we can roughly group as Paul's & John's, Mark's, Matthew's & Luke's, of which Mark's is the only actual bio of an earthly Jesus, Paul largely ignoring that aspect, and the authors of Matthew, Luke and (at a larger distance) John, re-editing and re-writing Mark to their individual taste.

The details about Jesus are different because different authors have different writing styles, but the essence is the same.

 

[Skywalker]

Bold assertion. Back it up.

Job talked about the Messiah being his redeemer.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Job talked about the Messiah being hid redeemer.

And...

 

[RabbiO]

Psychologist Gary Habermas said that he didn't see signs that Jesus was suffering from any mental illness.

Habermas is not a psychologist. Why would you think he is?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gary Habermas, a psychologist, read the New Testament details about Jesus.

That's a bit like psychoanalyzing King Arthur by reading Historia regum Britanniae.

 

[Skywalker]

Bold assertion. Back it up.

The Bible is not a scanty and unreliable record. The idea that stories about Christ emerged from mythology about gods dying and rising doesn't withstand scrutiny.

 

[Skywalker]

Habermas is not a psychologist. Why would you think he is?

Gary Collins is the psychologist.

 

[Skywalker]

That's a bit like psychoanalyzing King Arthur by reading Historia regum Britanniae.

Jesus is a real person. King Arthur's existence is questionable.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was using an analogy about Paul. Paul didn't brag about his past, he had nothing to gain from what he talked about. He talked normally and with insight about moral issues.

On Paul boasting ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jesus is a real person. King Arthur's existence is questionable.

In fact, the historicity of each has been questioned.
In fact, being 'real' in no way insures that the attendant story is real.

 

[Skywalker]

On Paul boasting ...

Paul glorified Christ, not himself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

BTW, Wikipedia: King Arthur: Historicity is always an interesting read when talking about Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

BTW, Wikipedia: King Arthur: Historicity is always an interesting read when talking about Jesus.

Nobody doubts that Jesus existed.

 

[Augustus]

I was thinking of the systematic suppression of gnostic texts, which was very effective. It would perhaps fit your 'heretical' remark, since the gnostics lost.

There was no real 'systematic' repression of texts in the ancient world, only local and ad hoc. Central powers had too little control of whatever 'system' existed to be able to coordinate and manage anything like that.

During the Diocletian Persecution the (Pagan) Romans destroyed Christian, Manichaean and other 'subversive' religious texts and burned people who refused to sacrifice to the Roman gods.

This was under an official edict from the Emperor, one who significantly increased the imperial bureaucracy, but it was hardly applied empire wide with any standardised degree of rigour. A few hundred martyrs were created, some properties confiscated and some texts burned, but it had minimal impact on the availability of Christian texts.

Communication was too slow, power too decentralised, enforcement mechanisms too weak and cultural differences so great that an edict was more of a 'the Emperor likes this' advisory than a modern, standardised law enforced by the police and courts. Many edicts were completely ignored in many parts of the Empire.

The Pope had even less ability to enforce anything much, and the idea that there was a unified 'Church' in anything other than theory is a mistake.

People look at edicts or decrees and think that they had far more influence than they actually did. Also hagiographies tended to overstate persecutory zeal as a common trope.

Gnostic texts disappeared for the same reason most Christian, Pagan or any other texts have disappeared: no one was interested in spending the vast amounts of effort and money necessary to copy them endlessly for 2000 years.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Paul glorified Christ, not himself.

Don't you find moving goalposts a bit tiring?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nobody doubts that Jesus existed.

^ ignore-list

 

[Aupmanyav]

I was using an analogy about Paul. Paul didn't brag about his past, he had nothing to gain from what he talked about. He talked normally and with insight about moral issues.

Paul created Christianity. He was a good blurb writer.

 

[Skywalker]

How can you confidently assert he had nothing to gain?

The world is full of self-styled ptophets and holy men. What do you know of their real beliefs and motives? Zero.

For that matter, the obviously fake snake story
purporting to show he was under gods protection is a self promoting lie.

Christianity began as with Jewish people following Jesus and claiming Jesus is the initiator of a new religion. They are willing to give up or alter five of the social institutions that they have been taught since childhood have such importance both sociologically and theologically.

 

[Skywalker]

Paul created Christianity. He was a good blurb writer.

Paul went to jail for his faith in Christ.

 

[Aupmanyav]

He read the descriptions of Jesus in the Bible.

And wrote his dissertation. Is not that a little funny?

Habermas is not a psychologist. Why would you think he is?

Gary Robert Habermas is an American New Testament scholar and Christian apologist who frequently writes and lectures on the resurrection of Jesus. He is a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University. Wikipedia

Liberty University (LU) is a private evangelical Christian university in Lynchburg, Virginia. It was founded by Jerry Falwell and Elmer L. Towns in 1971. Although the university's physical campus is in Lynchburg, most of its students are online. It is one of the largest evangelical Christian universities in the world and one of the largest private non-profit universities in the United States, measured by student enrollment.

Choose your sources well.