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Did Christianity Start with Jesus?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
Because Moses is another bibical figure, and talking about historical evidence for Moses support what you said about historical evidence for Abraham. Did The Exodus Really Happen? – Historical Evidence of the Exodus
DID THE EXODUS REALLY HAPPEN? – HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF THE EXODUS
November 20, 2014 By Beginning and End
Is there historical and archeological proof of the Exodus? Yes and it confirms the Bible.
— Was the Exodus a real historical event? Did Moses Really Exist? Were the Israelites ever in Egypt? Non-Biblical historical evidence of the Exodus —
With Exodus: God And Kings set to hit theaters in December 2014, there will no doubt be many discussions regarding the Biblical account of the Exodus and whether or not it was a real historical event. Is there any non-Biblical, historical evidence for the Exodus? This article will show from archeological and secular historical sources that the answer is a resounding “yes.”
The Timing of The Exodus In Ancient History
The Ipuwer papyrus records many of the plagues of the Exodus.
The Israelite enslavement in Egypt and the Exodus took place during the Middle Kingdom of ancient Egypt, which would be the eleventh twelfth and thirteenth dynasties. This period came to an abrupt end when the Hyksos, foreign Asiatic invaders, swept in and rapidly took over Egypt, ruling for the next 400 years. So what allowed this conquest to take place? It was that Egypt was ravaged by a series of disasters and plagues just prior to the Hyksos invasion. And this is recorded in the Ipuwer Papyrus, an ancient poem written by an Egyptian scribe named Ipuwer, who records the aftermath of the plagues upon Egypt and the sweeping conquest of the Hyksos. The document also known as “The Admonitions of An Egyptian Sage”, was originally translated by famed archeologist A.H. Gardinder. Russian Scholar Immanuel Velikovsky, in his book Ages In Chaos, made the connection that the Ipuwer Papyrus confirms much of the historical account of the Exodus as recorded in the Bible.
One historian, who disagreed with many of Velikovsky’s conslusions, still writes:
The synchronism, however, is still valid, and Velikovsky was quite right to connect the two accounts [the Biblical Exodus and the events of the Ipuwer papyrus]. But, rather than simultaneously describing the same plagues, it appears that Moses recorded Act I of the drama: the devastation of Egypt and the escape of the Israelites at the hand of the Lord; and that Ipuwer described Act II: the conquest of Egypt by the Hyksos on the heels of the Exodus. Velikovsky identified the Hyksos as the Biblical Amalekites whom the Israelites battled in the desert at Rephidim after crossing the Red Sea. That provides a further link between the two accounts. (source).
There has been much controversy surrounding the Ipuwer Papyrus (as there is with much of the ancient historical evidence that confirms the Bible). But in this instance, the majority view on both sides were not entirely correct. What the papyrus records is the invasion of the Hyksos which took place on the heel of the plagues of the Exodus. So it is not a parallel account of the Exodus but rather a reflection on the judgments of the Exodus in light of the invasion that followed. But in its description, there are startling descriptions that are completely in line with the Biblical account.
The Similarities From Secular History
There are startling similarities between Egyptian history and the Bible.
Looking at the Ipuwer papyrus alongside Scripture reveals startling similarities:
Earthquakes
Right after the Israelites left slavery, The Lord appeared to them in the wilderness. The Bible records God’s presence as causing a great deal of earthquake and volcanic activity:
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. – Exodus 19:18.
PAPYRUS 2:11 The towns are destroyed. Upper Egypt has become dry…
PAPYRUS 3:13 All is ruin!
PAPYRUS 7:4 The residence is overturned in a minute.
PAPYRUS 4:2 …Years of noise. There is no end to noise.
PAPYRUS 6:1 Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult (uproar) be no more.
Plague of Blood
The plague of blood is recorded in Egyptian historical records.
Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood….And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. – Exodus 7:17-21.
PAPYRUS 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
PAPYRUS 2:10 Men shrink from tasting — human beings and thirst after water.
PAPYRUS 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Plague Upon Cattle
Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children’s of Israel. And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land. And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. – Exodus 9:3-6.
PAPYRUS 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan.
Plague of Hail
The plague of hail brought Egypt’s economy to its knees.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt…. So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field…And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled. – Exodus 9:22-25; 31.
PAPYRUS 4:14 Trees are destroyed.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found…
PAPYRUS 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
PAPYRUS 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps…The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong (by right) wheat and barley, geese and fish.
PAPYRUS 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
PAPYRUS 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which yesterday was seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
The Ipuwer papyrus describes the destruction of crops as happening suddenly, where the food that was seen “yesterday” was then destroyed without warning – indicating a catastrophe took place, which lines up with the Scriptural account of God’s supernatural judgment destroying them. Additionally, both the Bible and the papyrus specifically reference flax which was one of the most commonly-used crops in ancient Egyptian societyand a critical part of their economy. Thus the loss of flax crippled the empire.
The Plague of Locusts
Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast: And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field: And they shall fill thy houses, and the houses of all thy servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians; which neither thy fathers, nor thy fathers’ fathers have seen, since the day that they were upon the earth unto this day. And he turned himself, and went out from Pharaoh. And Pharaoh’s servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed? – Exodus 10:4-7.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found…hunger.
Notice that the locusts were sent to finish the destruction started by the hail. And both were to the end that there was no food left in Egypt.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You don't think genre is important?
I think it's critically important. I also think that you're naively reading into the text in order to produce a product which is for you less problematic.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm sure there were certain teachings of the rabbis that Jesus did not oppose. But then he called out the hypocrites when necessary. I was just reading a few chapters in Leviticus about sin offerings, it was very, very interesting.
So tell me, when the Messiah comes as far as you're concerned, what will happen? Will a temple descend from heaven as I've heard some Jews say?
(Yes, you can have Torah without the Oral Law.)
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because --------------------------
Moses traced the ancestry of Abraham back to Adam and Eve. Now if you believe Moses, you believe what is written. Or don't you. So if Moses wrote myths about the ancestry of Abraham, before and after, what makes you believe Abraham existed?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm glad you understand that different Jews have different opinions. I think the temple will be built with human hands. In fact, the temple may be built BEFORE the messiah comes, as a prelude to his coming.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Moses is considered myth in biblical scholarship:
Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure, while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed.[11][12][13][14]
Moses - Wikipedia
One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived.
But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.
Is there archeological evidence for Moses and the mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of Israelites described in the Bible?
We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story.
William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible
This PhD work was the first in the 1970's to really show these characters were myth. It was a big deal then but eventually because standard and part of the consensus of the field.
https://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Patriarchal-Narratives-Historical-Abraham/dp/1563383896
"Completely dismantles the historic patriarchal narratives. His impeccable scholarship, his astounding mastery of the sources, and rigorous detailed examination of the archaeological claims makes this book one I will immediately take with me in case of a flood. And it still hasn't been refuted. I am well aware of the excellent work of William G. Dever, and his critique of the "minimalists" and his harping against Thompson, but it is his other books Dever has the most beef against. This one stands stellar and strong. I was absolutely bowled over by it. "
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But are you sure Abraham and Sarah existed? That's the first question.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes there are quite a few different viewpoints. Oh well, at this point with all due respect, you think the temple will be built with human hands but others think it will descend from heaven. I won't go into detail now. I'll go by what the Bible says.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You mean what YOUR Bible says. My Bible is substantially different from yours.
What a truly stellar grasp of the concept of 'evidence' you display!
You then quote Dever and Thompson as reflecting this consensus.
I suspect that you've never actually read a book by either. Am I right?
No problem; the same can be said of most people. But, since you like Wikipedia (as do I) you might wish to browse the Wikipedia: Thompson entry, particularly:
Thompson is a part of the minimalist movement known as the Copenhagen School, a group of scholars who hold that the Bible cannot be used as a source to determine the history of ancient Israel, and that "Israel" itself is a problematic concept. ...
In The Bible in History: How Writers Create a Past (U.S. title: The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel), he argued that the Old Testament was entirely, or almost entirely, a product of the period between the fifth and second centuries BC.
Thompson's arguments were criticized by many biblical scholars, prominent among them William G. Dever in his book What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?, which has been described as "a very polemic and partly vehement attack not least against Professor Thomas L. Thompson".
In The Bible in History: How Writers Create a Past (U.S. title: The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel), he argued that the Old Testament was entirely, or almost entirely, a product of the period between the fifth and second centuries BC.
Thompson's arguments were criticized by many biblical scholars, prominent among them William G. Dever in his book What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?, which has been described as "a very polemic and partly vehement attack not least against Professor Thomas L. Thompson".
In fact, much of Dever's popularity (or, perhaps, notoriety) stems largely from his polemics against biblical minimalism. He, at least, might be seen as a champion of the consensus.
Regarding Moses, Dever's 2017 Beyond the Texts is worthy of note.
The first thing one finds is that the name "Moses" is absent from the subject index. As for the Exodus:
The biblical portrait of Sinai and Transjordan at the time of any exodus (now clearly thirteenth century) is unrealistic. Apart from a few possible memories in oral tradition, the writers are obviously viewing the region from their point of view in the seventh century or later. Again, the biblical texts are a secondary source; archaeology, the primary source, is largely silent. To be sure, recent studies by archaeologists (as well as most biblical scholars) have suggested that behind these stories there may be authentic memories of a small "exodus group," essentially the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Sometimes designated significantly "the house of Joseph," these groups were the principal authors of the traditions as we now have them. [pg. 124]
It's important to read this carefully, noting what is said but, also, what is not said.
And you may find it particularly worthwhile to read Anthony J. Frendo's
Avraham Faust's
and Richard Elliot Friedman's
with Dever's observation in mind.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have heard from orthodox Jews that the temple will descend from heaven. Obviously there are other opinions. Meantime in "your" Bible does it tell you that the temple would be destroyed by the Romans in the 1st century?
Not in mine.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Just also in answer to Indigochild as well, she perhaps can look up the rather varied Jewish sages opinions about when, where and how the temple would be rebuilt. Quite an interesting read, I am reading leviticus now about the requirements God gave to Moses. You can check out the various rabbinic ideas at chabad.org.Not in mine.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ok. Here's more for you...
perhaps can look up the rather varied Jewish sages opinions about when, where and how the temple would be rebuilt. Quite an interesting read, I am reading Leviticus now about the requirements God gave to Moses. You can check out the various rabbinic ideas at chabad.org.
I am sure that your understanding of Leviticus is matched only by your understanding of evidence. But what does any of this have to do with the thread topic?