Actually, I'd love it if you and @Miken would both clarify what we're talking about and its relationship to the OP. I seem to have gotten lost along the way.
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Did Christianity Start with Jesus?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's just a sidebar.
Miken
Active Member
Have much to do today, I will only answer in brief.
In OHJ, Carrier uses the word trial(s) 76 times, about half of them referring to the trial of Jesus by the Sanhedrin, most of the rest concerning the trial of Paul for unfathomable reasons, and references to unstated gods.
Carrier uses the word struggle(s/d) 15 times in OHJ, none of them having to do with Jesus and only one referring to a god, Osiris. As I have already documented, Carrier’s claim about Osiris ascending into heaven in the Pyramid Texts is wrong. It is the king being buried in the pyramid who has taken the place of Osiris in heaven, since the king is a god, and Osiris is down in the underworld, judging whether mere humans will continue to exist after they die. Osiris does not ascend to heaven. The king does.
The word Saoshyant as used in the Gathas, the pre-Christian form of the Zoroastrian texts, does not mean anything like messiah, as I have documented via Boyce’s words. Not until the Yasht in the Younger Avesta, which does not appear until centuries after Christianity, is this idea found, again according to Boyce. It is expanded further by throwing in a virgin birth in the 9th or 10th century in the Bundahishn, which is so late it is not even considered canonical. And as I have documented, it contains clear historical references to a series of foreign oppressions of the Persian people including the 7th century Muslim invasion.
Your quote from Wiki. Emphasis mine
"Messianism is the belief in the advent of a messiah who acts as the savior or liberator of a group of people.[1] Messianism originated as an Abrahamic religious belief, but other religions have messianism-related concepts. Religions with a messiah concept include Zoroastrianism (Saoshyant),"
Wiki? this fits Boyce's words?
As far as I know, Boyce never commented on where messianism started. But as I have documented several times now, in Boyce’s own words, the idea of a messiah in Zoroastrianism is not found in the pre-Christians Gathas. It only appears in the post-Christian Younger Avesta and in the 9/10th century CE Bundahishn.
In the Jewish scriptures the only use of the word savior is in reference to God or to a historical military leader in the past. The messiah is not called savior or even identified as an individual until well after the Law and Prophets were written. As I have discussed at length elsewhere, earlier followers of Jesus had problems with the Paul’s clam about the crucifixion having some kind of salvation value, although they agreed he was crucified, and even with the idea of resurrection itself. It is clear that there was a real Jesus before Paul started adding all his stuff that Carrier thinks came from mythology.
Once more, Boyce says that the idea of world savior does not appear in Zoroastrianism until after the Christian era had begun and does not much resemble the Jesus story until the 9th or 10th century CE.
I have yet to see any convincing case of a Jesus-like story in mythology. I earlier knocked down the Dionysus story. I have a couple of times now knocked down the Osiris story. I will now proceed to knock down the Inanna story.
The story of Innana where Carrier incorrectly gets his story from dates to before 2000 BCE in Sumer,
Inanna wants to conquer the underworld, the place of the dead and kingdom of her elder sister, Erec-ki-gala. Inanna intends to sneak in pretending to be there to mourn and asks some other gods to rescue her if she does not come back after three days. As she goes through the seven gates, she is required to give up articles of clothing, symbolically nullifying her power as a god. She tries to sit on her sister’s throne but has no power left to establish her authority. The seven judges of the underworld declare that she is to die for this. (Not much of a trial, just the declaration of a verdict.) She is killed and her corpse hung on a hook.
After three days and nights as requested, Inanna’s second in command Ninshubar goes to the other gods who are Inanna’s peers asking for help. Only Enki her father took pity and agreed to help. Enki creates two beings and sends them to the underworld to ask for Inanna’s corpse. They could not be human emissaries because the Queen of the underworld would not speak with mortals and no gods would go.
When they got there, Erec-ki-gala was in severe pain. There is a lacuna here so we do not know exactly what happened next. But suddenly the emissaries are being offered a river of water and a huge field of grain, both very valuable in the southeastern corner of the Arabian desert where this story comes from. We might guess that they provided a cure for Erec-ki-gala. They refuse those rewards but only want Inanna’s corpse which is given to them. They somehow have the life-giving plant and water (from Enki since he mentions it?)
They revive Inanna and start to leave when they are stopped by demons and told that if Inanna leaves someone else has to come down and die. Inanna is escorted to the surface but not freed. The demons try to seize first one then another and more, but Inanna talks them out of it because they all mourned so much for her. Finally they come across her husband Dumuzid who had never mourning and was enjoying his bachelor life. Bye Bye Dumuzid.
But Carrier sums this up as
Inanna is crucified (nailed up), and notably not on earth, but in a non-earthly realm (the sub-world, in accordance with Sumerian lore of the time), and not by people, but by demons—and their godly overlords, who happen to be the gods of death,
Carrier, Richard. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (p. 62). Sheffield Phoenix Press. Kindle Edition.
No, Inanna is already dead when she is hung on a hook, not nailed up. No crucifixion. The underworld was the land of the dead in just about every religion and mythology in that area, not just in Sumerian lore. Inanna went there to conquer that land. The demons are the seven judges of the dead who killed Inanna by looking at her with that intent. Erec-ki-gala, Inanna’s sister, is the one and only god of the underworld in this story. And the efforts to get Inanna back did not even start until after the third day and took a bunch of finagling.
But when you only read a summary of Inanna’s Descent into the Nether World instead of the whole thing and combine that with an overview of the several versions of Sumerian mythology rolled into one, amateur mistakes are bound to happen. And if you are out to sell books to a gullible audience, so are lies.
Another problem with Carrier’s claim. When Jeremiah complained about worship of the Queen of Heaven, he was not talking about Inanna, whose name means Queen of the East not Queen of Heaven. He was talking about the Queen of Heaven Asherah אֲשֵׁרָה imported from Sidon, in present day Lebanon, and worshipped by Solomon. Asherah has no such story as Inanna in her mythos. Carrier is wrong again. And considering his misrepresentations, guess what?
Please provide a single example of an already existing god who became human. Paul insists on that as crucial to his argument. His description of Jesus as the Son of God is exactly like that of Philo’s Son of God, creator of the world and such. That was not from mythology at all but Philo trying to import the Platonic demiurge intermediary into Judaism. The only Jews who bothered with this idea were students of philosophy at Tarsus at the university there, famous as the center of philosophy studies for the region.
Notice, however, that when talking to a Jewish audience as in Romans, Paul is careful not to refer to Jesus as a pre-existing deity – polytheism you know – but says that Jesus became the Son of God at the resurrection. Which means that the divine Jesus idea did not come out of Judaism but only from Philo, and assigning divine status to a human was entirely Paul’s idea. But then it appears that the supernatural meaning of the cross and even the resurrection were too, since earlier Jesus followers denied them.
When you were talking about Carrier you had to shout that he had a PhD at every opportunity, even though it was not related to scriptural studies. Just having a PhD was all that mattered. But when you find out I have a PhD suddenly that does not matter anymore.
“]The apologetics here is that you are actually seemingly trying to say Jesus wasn't just a Jewish version of this myth? Which suggests you are clinging to something supernatural somewhere in here.”
Since I have been contradicting dearly held Christian beliefs all along, I find the label ‘apologetic’ truly hilarious. Not clinging to anything supernatural at all. I list my religion as None because that is the question asked. But I am in fact an atheist. My PhD is in Physics and I am trained in the logical analysis of facts to reach genuinely justifiable conclusions. Your religion seems to be based on unfailing faith in the Gospel of St. Carrier. I have shown how Carrier is wrong with detailed analysis of what he is saying with quotes and lots of supporting evidence. And how do you respond? By calling me a liar for saying I ever read anything from Carrier. Despite the extensive quotes no less. Yep, you’ve got yourself a religion there all right.
In OHJ, Carrier uses the word trial(s) 76 times, about half of them referring to the trial of Jesus by the Sanhedrin, most of the rest concerning the trial of Paul for unfathomable reasons, and references to unstated gods.
Carrier uses the word struggle(s/d) 15 times in OHJ, none of them having to do with Jesus and only one referring to a god, Osiris. As I have already documented, Carrier’s claim about Osiris ascending into heaven in the Pyramid Texts is wrong. It is the king being buried in the pyramid who has taken the place of Osiris in heaven, since the king is a god, and Osiris is down in the underworld, judging whether mere humans will continue to exist after they die. Osiris does not ascend to heaven. The king does.
The word Saoshyant as used in the Gathas, the pre-Christian form of the Zoroastrian texts, does not mean anything like messiah, as I have documented via Boyce’s words. Not until the Yasht in the Younger Avesta, which does not appear until centuries after Christianity, is this idea found, again according to Boyce. It is expanded further by throwing in a virgin birth in the 9th or 10th century in the Bundahishn, which is so late it is not even considered canonical. And as I have documented, it contains clear historical references to a series of foreign oppressions of the Persian people including the 7th century Muslim invasion.
Your quote from Wiki. Emphasis mine
"Messianism is the belief in the advent of a messiah who acts as the savior or liberator of a group of people.[1] Messianism originated as an Abrahamic religious belief, but other religions have messianism-related concepts. Religions with a messiah concept include Zoroastrianism (Saoshyant),"
Wiki? this fits Boyce's words?
As far as I know, Boyce never commented on where messianism started. But as I have documented several times now, in Boyce’s own words, the idea of a messiah in Zoroastrianism is not found in the pre-Christians Gathas. It only appears in the post-Christian Younger Avesta and in the 9/10th century CE Bundahishn.
In the Jewish scriptures the only use of the word savior is in reference to God or to a historical military leader in the past. The messiah is not called savior or even identified as an individual until well after the Law and Prophets were written. As I have discussed at length elsewhere, earlier followers of Jesus had problems with the Paul’s clam about the crucifixion having some kind of salvation value, although they agreed he was crucified, and even with the idea of resurrection itself. It is clear that there was a real Jesus before Paul started adding all his stuff that Carrier thinks came from mythology.
Once more, Boyce says that the idea of world savior does not appear in Zoroastrianism until after the Christian era had begun and does not much resemble the Jesus story until the 9th or 10th century CE.
I have yet to see any convincing case of a Jesus-like story in mythology. I earlier knocked down the Dionysus story. I have a couple of times now knocked down the Osiris story. I will now proceed to knock down the Inanna story.
The story of Innana where Carrier incorrectly gets his story from dates to before 2000 BCE in Sumer,
Inanna wants to conquer the underworld, the place of the dead and kingdom of her elder sister, Erec-ki-gala. Inanna intends to sneak in pretending to be there to mourn and asks some other gods to rescue her if she does not come back after three days. As she goes through the seven gates, she is required to give up articles of clothing, symbolically nullifying her power as a god. She tries to sit on her sister’s throne but has no power left to establish her authority. The seven judges of the underworld declare that she is to die for this. (Not much of a trial, just the declaration of a verdict.) She is killed and her corpse hung on a hook.
After three days and nights as requested, Inanna’s second in command Ninshubar goes to the other gods who are Inanna’s peers asking for help. Only Enki her father took pity and agreed to help. Enki creates two beings and sends them to the underworld to ask for Inanna’s corpse. They could not be human emissaries because the Queen of the underworld would not speak with mortals and no gods would go.
When they got there, Erec-ki-gala was in severe pain. There is a lacuna here so we do not know exactly what happened next. But suddenly the emissaries are being offered a river of water and a huge field of grain, both very valuable in the southeastern corner of the Arabian desert where this story comes from. We might guess that they provided a cure for Erec-ki-gala. They refuse those rewards but only want Inanna’s corpse which is given to them. They somehow have the life-giving plant and water (from Enki since he mentions it?)
They revive Inanna and start to leave when they are stopped by demons and told that if Inanna leaves someone else has to come down and die. Inanna is escorted to the surface but not freed. The demons try to seize first one then another and more, but Inanna talks them out of it because they all mourned so much for her. Finally they come across her husband Dumuzid who had never mourning and was enjoying his bachelor life. Bye Bye Dumuzid.
But Carrier sums this up as
Inanna is crucified (nailed up), and notably not on earth, but in a non-earthly realm (the sub-world, in accordance with Sumerian lore of the time), and not by people, but by demons—and their godly overlords, who happen to be the gods of death,
Carrier, Richard. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (p. 62). Sheffield Phoenix Press. Kindle Edition.
No, Inanna is already dead when she is hung on a hook, not nailed up. No crucifixion. The underworld was the land of the dead in just about every religion and mythology in that area, not just in Sumerian lore. Inanna went there to conquer that land. The demons are the seven judges of the dead who killed Inanna by looking at her with that intent. Erec-ki-gala, Inanna’s sister, is the one and only god of the underworld in this story. And the efforts to get Inanna back did not even start until after the third day and took a bunch of finagling.
But when you only read a summary of Inanna’s Descent into the Nether World instead of the whole thing and combine that with an overview of the several versions of Sumerian mythology rolled into one, amateur mistakes are bound to happen. And if you are out to sell books to a gullible audience, so are lies.
Another problem with Carrier’s claim. When Jeremiah complained about worship of the Queen of Heaven, he was not talking about Inanna, whose name means Queen of the East not Queen of Heaven. He was talking about the Queen of Heaven Asherah אֲשֵׁרָה imported from Sidon, in present day Lebanon, and worshipped by Solomon. Asherah has no such story as Inanna in her mythos. Carrier is wrong again. And considering his misrepresentations, guess what?
Please provide a single example of an already existing god who became human. Paul insists on that as crucial to his argument. His description of Jesus as the Son of God is exactly like that of Philo’s Son of God, creator of the world and such. That was not from mythology at all but Philo trying to import the Platonic demiurge intermediary into Judaism. The only Jews who bothered with this idea were students of philosophy at Tarsus at the university there, famous as the center of philosophy studies for the region.
Notice, however, that when talking to a Jewish audience as in Romans, Paul is careful not to refer to Jesus as a pre-existing deity – polytheism you know – but says that Jesus became the Son of God at the resurrection. Which means that the divine Jesus idea did not come out of Judaism but only from Philo, and assigning divine status to a human was entirely Paul’s idea. But then it appears that the supernatural meaning of the cross and even the resurrection were too, since earlier Jesus followers denied them.
When you were talking about Carrier you had to shout that he had a PhD at every opportunity, even though it was not related to scriptural studies. Just having a PhD was all that mattered. But when you find out I have a PhD suddenly that does not matter anymore.
“]The apologetics here is that you are actually seemingly trying to say Jesus wasn't just a Jewish version of this myth? Which suggests you are clinging to something supernatural somewhere in here.”
Since I have been contradicting dearly held Christian beliefs all along, I find the label ‘apologetic’ truly hilarious. Not clinging to anything supernatural at all. I list my religion as None because that is the question asked. But I am in fact an atheist. My PhD is in Physics and I am trained in the logical analysis of facts to reach genuinely justifiable conclusions. Your religion seems to be based on unfailing faith in the Gospel of St. Carrier. I have shown how Carrier is wrong with detailed analysis of what he is saying with quotes and lots of supporting evidence. And how do you respond? By calling me a liar for saying I ever read anything from Carrier. Despite the extensive quotes no less. Yep, you’ve got yourself a religion there all right.
This is the worst case of Carrieritis I've seen in my 16 years here, sort of a cross between an unhealthy codependency and a feeding frenzy, but carry on ...
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The nation of israel stemming from those who agreed to obey the Law when Moses detailed it, was under mandate. They (the Jewish nation) were constrained by consent to obey it. in detail.
joelr
Well-Known Member
As I have shown the pyramid text Carrier uses are not in the King Unas text.
Again, you are playing apologetics. Osiris is a resurrected God. He doesn't have to "ascend to heaven" to be a similar myth?
Also why are you quote mining analysis of Carrier's book?
Seriously what is wrong with you? I just wrote out lines from Boyce's book, literally her words explaining early Persian beliefs of a world savior and a virgin birth in a lake. This was predicted by Zoroaster and re-told by Boyce in her book. Which I quoted directly.
A "world savior" would qualify EXACTLY AS A MESSIAH?
So much so that it said exactly that in the Wiki quote I provided. What is up with having to do things multiple times here?
Here we go again:
"Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity, Islam,[8] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[9]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
Uh huh. Except yesterday I wrote out some lines from Boyce's book which cleared that up.
Wow some Christians disagreed on stuff. Yeah that makes things super clear?
Cool, great speculation.
And here we are again. Fine. Let's see. In her book under the chapter "The Early Days" -Page 48 - "An important theological development during the dark ages of the faith concerned the growth of beliefs about the Saoshyant or coming savior.Passages in the Gathas suggest Zoroaster was filled with a sense that the end of the world was imminent, and that Ahura Mazda had entrusted him with revealed truth in order to rouse mankind for their vital part in the final struggle. Yet he must have realized that he himself would not live to see Frasho-kereti and he seems to have taught that after him there would come "the man who is better than a good man", the Saoshyant......it is he who will lead humanity in the last battle against evil. Followers came to believe the Saoshyant will be born of the prophets own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake. When the end of time approaches, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child......Despite his miraculous conception, the coming world savior......"
Oh that quote above about the Persians being the first to teach doctrines of individual judgment, heaven and hell, future resurrection of the body, last judgment, everlasting life and reunited soul and body and so on is from page 29 of the same book:
Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices
Smash.
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joelr
Well-Known Member
I've already seen this review that you failed to source because you copied it from a review. Carrier is sourcing Sumerian clay tablets on the Inanna myth. The apologetics source this is from is looking on Google or something.
Besides that the Persian world savior just said he would still be a man I''ll quote Carrier because you also do not understand syncretism:
"Syncretism is about combining both, not choosing one over the other. If you don’t know that, if you don’t know what syncretism is or how it works, you are not competent to debate the matter. When many Jews borrowed resurrection, apocalypticism, a flaming hell, and a divine enemy of God as concepts all from the pagan Zoroastrians who occupied their lands, they Judaized those concepts, making their own versions of them that were peculiarly Jewish and built on Jewish ideas. The result was a combination of pagan and Jewish elements. That’s how syncretism works. Similarly Osiris is an Egyptian syncretism of the dying and rising savior; Zalmoxis is a Thracian syncretism of the dying and rising savior; Ishtar is a Mesopotamian syncretism of the dying and rising savior; and so on. They are all different from each other in precisely the ways they have been rebuilt out of ideas from both the conquering and the native cultures. As for them, so for Jesus."
Oh sorry, PhD Carrier.
The idea that since some Christians didn't accept a crucifixion as atonement doesn't make a demigod historical? Moses did things on Earth, Hercules cleaned stables and Attis was castrated. That doesn't show historicity.
You did not read Carrier, quote mining doesn't count. Today the new lie is this PhD thing which you say "doesn't matter anymore" trying to create this new reality where since you mentioned your PhD I no longer use the label.
Except I did twice last post with Carrier and Ehrman.
But it's such a stupid point, who cares if I say "PhD"? Petty.
At least you have the gumption to actually engage, unlike others who throw insults through others posts.
Another dishonest thing you ignored. Your big point is the word "made" is incorrect. But I posted Carriers actual best translation and you ignored it. Picking and choosing and forgetting every time you get corrected?
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
Ask a correct question. Did dinosaurs live on Earth as a giant life before the ice age?
The answer is yes.
Did a scientist quote that holy life for animals and human babies is born every December as the condition ICE mass replaced, which then melts?
Yes. Relative human advice about why human life/animal today in bio genetics are supported by the presence ICE and its returned amassing every December.
Science talking science.
Now does the science theme, where science came from quote that males after the ICE age heard voices speaking that detailed mountain information relative to the pyramid and temple sciences that they first established as the owners/designer male human builders in the ancient past?
The answer would be yes, by all evidences. And doesn't history get recorded with intent, by human beings who record events and then tell stories as humans?
Yes.
Did the story pyramid/mountain and temples begin as the theme Jesus?
The answer is No. It had lots of male science human titles, descriptions, stories, data and meanings of the history when those males in science lived.
Males today are selves are born as babies, grow into adults and apply thinking, research and belief. The exact same living conditions as any other male human before them.
Didn't the story claim human life, a baby to son to adult self, male and human claim my Holy Father of my genetic history sacrificed my life claiming it would save life on Earth?
Yes.
Did any of you question what that thesis actually meant, seeing males in the past claim that they heard the voiced pre ancient existing human being male scientist life recorded before detailing all info also owned in visionary advice?
How it got re invented as a very ancient practice that places machine parts inside of the Earth stone fused mass. Which would quote seemed like the ground opened beneath their feet review?
I would say yes, seems so.
So didn't sacrificed life before be quantified to be Moses?
Yes.
Then temple pyramid sciences re used after bio genetics returned and healed by a non science practice...quoting why. The heavenly gas mass returned replaced by asteroid wandering star mass release?
Yes is that answer...the reason why genetics were supported to heal, more gas mass, a higher pressure, changes to ground water and oxygen. Ground water present and oxygen presence heals a sick cell.
Then scientists did it again, sacrificed life and called that title Jesus and said that this story and attack on male life was done achieved before and even said so...and quoted it was revealed to a healer male self by terms Carpentry (meaning tectonic earthquake cause)...which was prophecised to occur and sacrifice/kill his male life, and it did.
Seeing science with machines were causing it.
So it included visions, seeing and hearing voices unnaturally speaking to the males in the new era, so it was given a new title, after the fact of it....for a story cannot be written until it all occurred, literally.
Therefore it is not a story telling you how to, it is a story it did happen as historic advice and it stated why life got sacrificed as that Revelation. Quoting Jesus stating details about the CH gases of Immaculate heavenly scientific reasoning. How a gas in space cannot equal a gas removed out of the body of God/stone....as that reason?
The answer is yes.
Did a scientist quote that holy life for animals and human babies is born every December as the condition ICE mass replaced, which then melts?
Yes. Relative human advice about why human life/animal today in bio genetics are supported by the presence ICE and its returned amassing every December.
Science talking science.
Now does the science theme, where science came from quote that males after the ICE age heard voices speaking that detailed mountain information relative to the pyramid and temple sciences that they first established as the owners/designer male human builders in the ancient past?
The answer would be yes, by all evidences. And doesn't history get recorded with intent, by human beings who record events and then tell stories as humans?
Yes.
Did the story pyramid/mountain and temples begin as the theme Jesus?
The answer is No. It had lots of male science human titles, descriptions, stories, data and meanings of the history when those males in science lived.
Males today are selves are born as babies, grow into adults and apply thinking, research and belief. The exact same living conditions as any other male human before them.
Didn't the story claim human life, a baby to son to adult self, male and human claim my Holy Father of my genetic history sacrificed my life claiming it would save life on Earth?
Yes.
Did any of you question what that thesis actually meant, seeing males in the past claim that they heard the voiced pre ancient existing human being male scientist life recorded before detailing all info also owned in visionary advice?
How it got re invented as a very ancient practice that places machine parts inside of the Earth stone fused mass. Which would quote seemed like the ground opened beneath their feet review?
I would say yes, seems so.
So didn't sacrificed life before be quantified to be Moses?
Yes.
Then temple pyramid sciences re used after bio genetics returned and healed by a non science practice...quoting why. The heavenly gas mass returned replaced by asteroid wandering star mass release?
Yes is that answer...the reason why genetics were supported to heal, more gas mass, a higher pressure, changes to ground water and oxygen. Ground water present and oxygen presence heals a sick cell.
Then scientists did it again, sacrificed life and called that title Jesus and said that this story and attack on male life was done achieved before and even said so...and quoted it was revealed to a healer male self by terms Carpentry (meaning tectonic earthquake cause)...which was prophecised to occur and sacrifice/kill his male life, and it did.
Seeing science with machines were causing it.
So it included visions, seeing and hearing voices unnaturally speaking to the males in the new era, so it was given a new title, after the fact of it....for a story cannot be written until it all occurred, literally.
Therefore it is not a story telling you how to, it is a story it did happen as historic advice and it stated why life got sacrificed as that Revelation. Quoting Jesus stating details about the CH gases of Immaculate heavenly scientific reasoning. How a gas in space cannot equal a gas removed out of the body of God/stone....as that reason?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Some say that, but Jesus was a Handworker in wood, stone, bone etc, and (like the Baptist) he led an uprising against a very corrupt Priesthood.
Teach? He led a revolt against the whole Temple corruption ........ Jesus made speeches, sure, but he was not holding any kind of classes, imo.
No..... nrever.
Yep..... both himself and the Baptist.
John of Patmos and Paul...... and others. Paul wasn't even interested in Jesus or any part of his movement, imo, never told a single anecdote about anything that Jesus actually did (other than during last day) he was just interested in 'Christ'.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
The Prajapita Brahmakumaris, a monotheistic Dharmic religion, consider Jesus to be a son of God, but not God Himself.
This viewpoint is similar to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion.
The characterization of Jesus as God arose through erroneous interpretation of the scriptures.
You can say that Jesus taught a refined version of Judaism, with a greater emphasis on love, nonviolence, compassion and forgiveness.
This viewpoint is similar to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam and Bahai religion.
The characterization of Jesus as God arose through erroneous interpretation of the scriptures.
You can say that Jesus taught a refined version of Judaism, with a greater emphasis on love, nonviolence, compassion and forgiveness.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, but the issue of "detail" is a bit misapplied on this because of the issues of the "oral Law", the "commentary system", and the fact that there were and are different branches of Judaism.
I can explain if you want but I have to leave now, so take care.
firedragon
Veteran Member
By God, the difference between these theologies you mentioned and their conception of Jesus are poles apart.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You can explain perhaps sometime, but be aware that Jesus, who was killed by legal decree, condemned many teachings of the religious leaders. That's one thing I see. Furthermore, he was resurrected. In a more powerful state than when he was alive in the flesh. I'm tight for time now, so hopefully I too will get back to it, but it is an interesting subject.
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, I would say.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We've been through thàt with much discussion as to why it makes sense historically to believe Jesus existed.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
His story...to look back and reason why, his own life baby self DNA was previously sacrificed and removed out of natural life. Moses pyramid/temple past evil incident....returned by Saviour star wandering putting gas mass back into the spatial body x mass and also the returned ICE cooling end of year. To own return/reincarnation rebirth in the Garden Nature, supported by cooling gases, return of ground water and oxygenation of life. The stable state for animal and bio life born in the same equal womb of space scenario. Immaculate state returned.
A teaching of relativity only by human males on behalf of human males who sacrificed their own life/male babies and as consciousness told the story for self survival against occult/Satanic conversion sciences.
The Jesus theme quotes as a male, I was life sacrificed before by my own Father/ Genetic advice. I returned to re own by reincarnated DNA male baby self as my human Mother cell ovary also mutated and owned unnatural bleeding status, like stone cysts....such as endometriosis healed. I know I suffered that condition.
Told that story as a healer medical Teacher against life sacrificed in an irradiating fall out attack on life due to Temple pyramid science re practiced.
So taught against the hierarchy temple sciences actually. As the elite and trade and human greed control is based on civilization and technology as their information life attacked/sacrificed was real, for like today lots of human own that proof, they murdered them. How a hierarchy acts in their evil human choices.
The scientific evidence had been correlated and it was termed Christ CH gas revelation about how the womb space Immaculate state was the only reason why God gas stone changes, owning a huge amount of energy x mass allowed us to survive by how cold those gases were, compared to energy burning conversions.
How it was taught.
But due to ICE melt, natural disaster activation became apparent. Lots of disasters in the heavens and also the earthquakes/volcanic reactions, as the Earth core God heart was releasing it underneath their feet.
The science was not using Earth core radiation it was using colder fused mass to convert into a philosophers stone reasoning about gold. Just as the documents state.
As Earth had been stopped and sealed from sun conversion water seal was important...for when radiation mass radio waves multiply in the atmosphere, the ground water is evaporated by a huge mass to cool the activated atmospheric burning of the natural gases in space. How it was taught...you witness the huge ground water mass removal, and then flooding that occurs due to it.
In the past the above ground flood went into the re opened Earth tunnel sink hole history...and only a small flood around the base of pyramid and sphinx was left as the proof.
Life sacrificed proves the stigmata, unnatural life cell blood bleeding, that then gets removed when water mass and re oxygenation from ice melt puts it back. How it was explained, it is witnessed but then it gets removed....so you get sacrificed medically but then the sacrifice is stopped and the life cell returns to normal. Returned to life.
As we live first and are natural and origin to self first and self presence and self health first, before science is chosen and then acted upon, to call it a miracle would be lying, it was medical science factual advice. Seeing life is owned naturally healthy first.
It was a medical science advice. The medical advice told everyone that radiation extra in earth atmosphere causes massive water/oxygen losses from the ground life and then we begin to die from early age death, involving cells tissue problems, blood problems and bone problems.
Told and taught it exactly how it occurred.
Rome knew that the revelations were correct, when they were life changed in Rome by fall out conditions. So history attests that they travelled by ship to the port and blasted the Temple to have the science stopped seeing the owners refused to stop using it.
That Temple pyramid science use was owned and applied for many years afters until the continued attack on life was notified in various countries as self proof that it was real. By the Jesus incident which all the other documentation referred to that referred historical to the Moses pyramid events....about human chosen sciences.
lukethethird
unknown member
"to believe"
There's the problem. Since when does belief make sense? No one knows whether or not Jesus was an historical person or an entirely mythical person, but many believe as if that were enough.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
To know is to make comparisons in a new experience.
My brain burnt by fall out, which I witnessed. My brain began to unnaturally heat up and prickle. I had in my life applied spiritual studies as a human choice to spiritual information, about why a human would quote crown of thorns, yet so much of the ancient science terms owned different science expressions as a science ancient language.
For when your own human brother makes movies and writes books about codes and ancient secrets, everyone becomes interested...so begin to think upon it their own selves.
I did.
So I looked at why a letter of the alpha bet a lphabetalpha condition owned a number value. Obvious just in that observation that science wrote information correlating worded advice to numerical data.
Then I looked at what they said was magic powers. Se phi roth.
Phi science stated.
And then roth, meaning horns.
In human life horns and horn like changes to the brain/head skull was some of what I saw in medical research. I researched self spirituality and healing.
As lots of other humans bled unnaturally and applied stigmata, I then thought upon terms. All humans created equally, lots of humans demonstrating victimization of their cell blood and body. So said, seems like the Jesus human event was real.
Ebola then proved it as far as I was concerned, that it was heavenly gas radiation changes/fallout. To fall a Satanic preaching. A science knowledge.
So it began to make common sense.
When I got attacked and owned the intense brain prickling attack day after day that came and went.....at times I bled unnaturally from my womb, when I saw a metallic silver flash in the sky. When I saw the black wispy ground release of radiation on my legs that felt like being cut or whipped, it made common sense to me what was being personally physical human explained, as a phenomena cause.
I only believe in common sense, the ability to think for myself without being coerced.
Therefore as I thought the Jesus incident personally horrific, and wondered why anyone would argue about it, when life already exhibited early age sacrifice, then I decided to challenge other human information and stories...and ask them, did you own a self human experience to ever ponder was the Jesus incidence real by comparing self, a one of self a human to that incident?
To say information correct or incorrect as a self by self in an experience?
How I personally concluded, yes it did happen to our human brother, but how you read the information is motivated on personality, personal belief, personal wants.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, it is ascertained both through the scriptures, history (the persecution of the followers of Christ early on) and written works rather soon within the first several centuries that Jesus existed..Yes, it makes sense to me the more I think about it and consider it. I wasn't there, so I was not an eyewitness, but I have come to believe (yes believe) and understand that the Bible is true and that God is the author, using men as those writing the history.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
The author, a human a thinker and a storyteller quotes no Man is God.
His own teachings, a conclusive and conclusion. Why it is also written do not give God another name.....meaning science motivation and never change God again.
Science said for invention only in reality seeing everything already existed.
Argument, where did we come from, which includes God.
Some males quote God created us....being a creationist string theory that begins with the big bang blasting to all reasons that all bodies live today as a strung together belief of I know.
Biologists quote as humans in science condition only do comparisons to gain scientific information the closest compared living life form in history is an ape, missing higher self human owned identification.
As a reasonable argument against an egotist.
So then in AI conditions you have to quantify why a male speaking voice with a male vision of self, in gases, named a vision and a presence is thought by his own person to be "his" God.
All of it owns personal male science human reasoning, which begins with dust, holy dust, holy chemical dusts not in any state fission. Natural.
To claim the life of sacrifice that I inherited was by ground fission causes, yet ground fission moves into reaction that then goes away.
In the exact SAME incidence God the heart Earth core losing its cold sealed water history due to how much extra radiation got put into the atmospheric mass unnaturally had to deal with gas cooling by evaporation causes. Which unsealed the cooled Earth stone, so underground gases heating burnt right through the stone and made sink holes.
Where he quantifies God did it to me. My own fault he says, male adult, human and adult Father self, yet not a Father. Father meaning has sex to own baby.
Self descriptive analogy of a historic life involved in phenomena involving manifestation of evil spirits in burning gas circumstances, forced to see and bare witness to evil science causes, survived and told the self story.
So that males then concluded as I am not any God and God is sealed and holy only when it is sealed and holy......the highest cooling effect he quotes is the male/female angelic body seen emerge as visions/images in clouds.
I caused it by changing God seals says the male scientist.
So where is God in that story as self advice? It is God in the story as self advice, human being male. God in natural history is a stone planet...not speaking. God releasing gases into the womb.....not speaking and just owned rolling smoking cooling clouds without images.
Human male scientist quoted confession about Sion, I released the spirit of God...radiation which also does not speak, it burnt the gases which took our life ownership animals and human image owning water/oxygen and microbes into the clouds.
I already told everyone no man is God. Human the ONLY speaking capability.
Reality science is not looking for God, science is theorising what God historically began as before it consumed its owned body mass, cooled and held stone form.
As a thesis. So he was never looking for God, he was looking for an idea about what used to be.