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Did Christianity wipe out the Native Americans?
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
the europeans, not christianity. sure they went by the three G's, gold, God, and glory
but i doubt jesus mandated it. perhaps the church, but the church was always corrupt from the start.
it all comes down to land. and diseases. bahh.
but i doubt jesus mandated it. perhaps the church, but the church was always corrupt from the start.
it all comes down to land. and diseases. bahh.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
What do you mean? Native Americans are still around and so is their culture. Christian missionaries tried to wipe them out and make them convert to Christianity, and they very neary succeeded, but not quite. Painted Wolf I'm sure will know more about this then I do without having to look up details.
Rex
Founder
Maize said:
I meant wiped out in the since of what happend. Probably 90% of their population size then has been wiped out, that is alot.
I've been reading some indian captivation books from the colonial period and it very disturbing that these good christian people called the indians devils, and beasts.
Interesting learning.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
The biggest problem was that christians thought they had won over the pagans in europe, and then they came out here and found more. They wanted complete control over this country and the native americans posed a threat. Not only were they not christian, but they were good warriors. Therefore, the colonials tried to wipe them out because they were scared of not having full control over this country. I am sickened as to the way they were treated, and deep down I wish I were native american, and not european. Even though I'm italian and not british, I still feel that way.
I think it was a rifle called the Winchester that won the west.
I don't agree with the method used, but then the Conquisdadores Pizarro and Cortez said that the Incas and Aztecs were too ugly to live, so they killed as many of them as they could.
While the white settlers were killing the native Americans, the Spaniards were killing the Incas and Aztecs. And they all had slaves from Africa.
I know for a fact that God didn't do it, but God allows much evil to be committed and he somehow brings good out of it.
The Native Americans were reduced in number considerably, placed on reservations and why?
Thye had not the Winchester and they had not cannons and they had no muskets, so they had to lose. No ships either.
Remember the small pox infected blankets the English gave as "gifts" to the Native Americans?
Thank God he didn't initiate the slaughter of the Native Americans, but just allowed nature to run it's course.
Whoever has the gun wins!
Apparently the Native Americans didn't know how to make guns.
I don't agree with the method used, but then the Conquisdadores Pizarro and Cortez said that the Incas and Aztecs were too ugly to live, so they killed as many of them as they could.
While the white settlers were killing the native Americans, the Spaniards were killing the Incas and Aztecs. And they all had slaves from Africa.
I know for a fact that God didn't do it, but God allows much evil to be committed and he somehow brings good out of it.
The Native Americans were reduced in number considerably, placed on reservations and why?
Thye had not the Winchester and they had not cannons and they had no muskets, so they had to lose. No ships either.
Remember the small pox infected blankets the English gave as "gifts" to the Native Americans?
Thank God he didn't initiate the slaughter of the Native Americans, but just allowed nature to run it's course.
Whoever has the gun wins!
Apparently the Native Americans didn't know how to make guns.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Uh, Rex, we're still here... :hi:
our culture is still alive and well and if anything growing stronger.
I love it when people talk about us in the past tence as if we belong only in books and exibits... We have had doctors and lawers and rock/rap stars and eaven an Astronaught doing a space walk from the shuttle. The Green party had a Native American woman vice presidental candidate running by the name of Wynona LaDuke, a very prominate activist for environmental and native rights. :goodjob:
*sigh*
anyway... Yes there was a very concentrated effort to wipe out our cultures by the white governments. The banning of our religion, language and the eradicatoin of traditional nomadic and non-nomadic lifestyles was a big test of our ability to survive into the present day. The near extinction of the Buffalo was an especally bitter blow to the planes nations.
I dont think guns were the deciding factor, we used guns too remember. (one of the reasons Custer lost was that we had better guns than he did
arty: )
The big reason we lost is that everytime the government promiced a truce and a treaty promicing us that we would hold our lands in perpetuity we believed them. Then they would find something they wanted, gold, farmland, oil, uranium... they would break the treaty and start slaughtering villiages untill we agreed to a new treaty with smaller land and less freedom untill eventually we had no freedom and only the land that couldn't support our ways of life.
The land grab continues with instances such as Yucca Mtn. where the government has decided to store all its nuclear waste, on Native land. And the fights over Uranium and oil deposits in the Lakota and other nations lands.
as for 90% thats a bit extreme, there are more than 2 million of us in the US alone and that is with the draconian 'blood percentage' that the government forces on natives. (you can only be a native american if you have the governments aprovial a fact that most natives I've talked with find insulting)
there are another almost 2 million in Canada and eaven more in central america and Mexico. Considering that there were at best estimate 10 million natives in North America at the time of Columbus then it is more like we are at 45%-50% of our historical high rather than the 10% you give us.
I blame the rampent raceism of the colonists/americans for the slaughter rather than the religion wich was just a tool of the 'taming of the savage'. (as an intresting side note: isn't it funny when whites killed hundreds of innocent native women and children it was called a battle/victory but when native warriors killed more than three whites it was a massicre. Talk about bias.)
wa:do
our culture is still alive and well and if anything growing stronger.
I love it when people talk about us in the past tence as if we belong only in books and exibits... We have had doctors and lawers and rock/rap stars and eaven an Astronaught doing a space walk from the shuttle. The Green party had a Native American woman vice presidental candidate running by the name of Wynona LaDuke, a very prominate activist for environmental and native rights. :goodjob:
*sigh*
anyway... Yes there was a very concentrated effort to wipe out our cultures by the white governments. The banning of our religion, language and the eradicatoin of traditional nomadic and non-nomadic lifestyles was a big test of our ability to survive into the present day. The near extinction of the Buffalo was an especally bitter blow to the planes nations.
I dont think guns were the deciding factor, we used guns too remember. (one of the reasons Custer lost was that we had better guns than he did
arty: ) The big reason we lost is that everytime the government promiced a truce and a treaty promicing us that we would hold our lands in perpetuity we believed them. Then they would find something they wanted, gold, farmland, oil, uranium... they would break the treaty and start slaughtering villiages untill we agreed to a new treaty with smaller land and less freedom untill eventually we had no freedom and only the land that couldn't support our ways of life.
The land grab continues with instances such as Yucca Mtn. where the government has decided to store all its nuclear waste, on Native land. And the fights over Uranium and oil deposits in the Lakota and other nations lands.
as for 90% thats a bit extreme, there are more than 2 million of us in the US alone and that is with the draconian 'blood percentage' that the government forces on natives. (you can only be a native american if you have the governments aprovial a fact that most natives I've talked with find insulting)
there are another almost 2 million in Canada and eaven more in central america and Mexico. Considering that there were at best estimate 10 million natives in North America at the time of Columbus then it is more like we are at 45%-50% of our historical high rather than the 10% you give us.
I blame the rampent raceism of the colonists/americans for the slaughter rather than the religion wich was just a tool of the 'taming of the savage'. (as an intresting side note: isn't it funny when whites killed hundreds of innocent native women and children it was called a battle/victory but when native warriors killed more than three whites it was a massicre. Talk about bias.)
wa:do
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Painted Wolf: What role did "white" diseases play in the deaths of Native Americans? I know I've read something about this in the past, but I can't remember what it said.
Rex
Founder
painted wolf said:Uh, Rex, we're still here... :hi:
our culture is still alive and well and if anything growing stronger.
I love it when people talk about us in the past tence as if we belong only in books and exibits... We have had doctors and lawers and rock/rap stars and eaven an Astronaught doing a space walk from the shuttle. The Green party had a Native American woman vice presidental candidate running by the name of Wynona LaDuke, a very prominate activist for environmental and native rights. :goodjob:
*sigh*
anyway... Yes there was a very concentrated effort to wipe out our cultures by the white governments. The banning of our religion, language and the eradicatoin of traditional nomadic and non-nomadic lifestyles was a big test of our ability to survive into the present day. The near extinction of the Buffalo was an especally bitter blow to the planes nations.
I dont think guns were the deciding factor, we used guns too remember. (one of the reasons Custer lost was that we had better guns than he did
The big reason we lost is that everytime the government promiced a truce and a treaty promicing us that we would hold our lands in perpetuity we believed them. Then they would find something they wanted, gold, farmland, oil, uranium... they would break the treaty and start slaughtering villiages untill we agreed to a new treaty with smaller land and less freedom untill eventually we had no freedom and only the land that couldn't support our ways of life.
The land grab continues with instances such as Yucca Mtn. where the government has decided to store all its nuclear waste, on Native land. And the fights over Uranium and oil deposits in the Lakota and other nations lands.
as for 90% thats a bit extreme, there are more than 2 million of us in the US alone and that is with the draconian 'blood percentage' that the government forces on natives. (you can only be a native american if you have the governments aprovial a fact that most natives I've talked with find insulting)
there are another almost 2 million in Canada and eaven more in central america and Mexico. Considering that there were at best estimate 10 million natives in North America at the time of Columbus then it is more like we are at 45%-50% of our historical high rather than the 10% you give us.
I blame the rampent raceism of the colonists/americans for the slaughter rather than the religion wich was just a tool of the 'taming of the savage'. (as an intresting side note: isn't it funny when whites killed hundreds of innocent native women and children it was called a battle/victory but when native warriors killed more than three whites it was a massicre. Talk about bias.)
wa:do
I'm sorry if I may have offended you, but I was just repeating what I was told in class by another Native American.
I just find this topic interesting.
Also why would it take our govt. to tell you if you are a Native American or not. Being that the Native Americans are their own nation and a prereq. for a nation would be some sort of centralized govt. , why can't your own nation tell Native Americans who they are rather than an outside govt?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
maize-
Yes, disease played a major role in the deaths of Native peoples. The government handing out small pox blankets with the intent to spread the illness is just one example of the intentional and unintentional havoc disease played on the population.
today Diabetes is a major NA problem as we aparently arn't as well acostomed to the european diet. To help with this there is a growing movement to help people return to the native diets featuring low colestoral meat such as bison and venison and the return to corn, beans and squash as opposed to wheat and beef...
Rex-
It is an interesting topic and I'm glad that we can talk about it. I'm sorry if I seemed to be upset but as I said it is a common misconseption that we are gone, a thing of the past that has no place in "the modern world".
Native Americans are the only race required by law to be pedigree. For you to be an 'offical' Native American you must have a government card, called the CDIB or "Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood" wich is put out by the BIA "Bureau of Indian Affairs" This card determines your "Indian blood quantum" or how much of your ancestry is 'full native'. To do this they check offical lists of natives such as the Dawes Rolls. If for some reason your ancestors never made it on the 'offical list' too bad your not native. If they did make it on the list then its just a quick calculation to make shure they didn't breed with anyone other than a native... so If you father were 100% native and your mother wasn't then you would be 50%, so far so good... now if you married a non-native then your child would be 25% still ok by the government... now if they married a non-native your grand-child would no longer be a native they would be white or whatever elce thier parents were... no more natve americans. Now what if your child married a 100% native well then they would be 50%, you cant go up on the scale only down.
It is a way to keep us from mixing with others, or if we do to make shure that we will 'offically' dissapear in a few generations.
remember the 2 million I mentioned earlier, if the government pedigree laws were done away with that number would swell to almost 20 million.
why is this important. Well Tribes have certen rights built into the treaties that they signed when they agreed to the reservations. Such as the right to self-rule and the right to government assistance in running the infrastucture of the reservations, such as heat, electricity and other things. Without a decent pedigree you aren't able to apply for Tribal rights or privilages. The most desperatly poor areas of the United States are Reservations such as Rosebud Reservation.
Another thing the card system encourages is animosity among natives, between those who have cards and those who dont and those that support the card and those that don't. The Native community is deeply divided about the role of the 'white cards' and what they mean for the survival of the nations and the people. The issue of who is a 'real indian' and who isn't is a sad result of the card system.
Each Nation has its own rules for who can and can't become a member but again according to federal law they must present a degree of pedigree before they can gain 'offial' reccognition. Many Nations disregard the government quota on blood and are more open on who can join. If a tribe, the Passamoquody of Maine I believe are an example but I'll have to duble check on that, has 100 members but none of them has a government card then the tribe is considered 'extinct' in the US and not offially reccognised. They loose thier tribal lands and any rights they may have had as a tribe. The Passamoquody still hold thier cultural cerimonies and ties but they are unreccognized by the government of the US, Canada reccognized the Passamoquody, but they don't want to have to go to Canada as they have lived for centuries in Maine. They are currently fighting for federal reccognition. Of cource you cant get a card if your tribe isn't reccognized and your tribe cant be reccognized without card carrying members. Catch 22.
wa:do
some links you may find helpful:
http://www.americanindiansource.com/bloodquantum.html
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/govlaw/BIA000418CDIBproposedrule.htm
http://www.airc.org/reservations/index.html
Yes, disease played a major role in the deaths of Native peoples. The government handing out small pox blankets with the intent to spread the illness is just one example of the intentional and unintentional havoc disease played on the population.
today Diabetes is a major NA problem as we aparently arn't as well acostomed to the european diet. To help with this there is a growing movement to help people return to the native diets featuring low colestoral meat such as bison and venison and the return to corn, beans and squash as opposed to wheat and beef...
Rex-
It is an interesting topic and I'm glad that we can talk about it. I'm sorry if I seemed to be upset but as I said it is a common misconseption that we are gone, a thing of the past that has no place in "the modern world".
Native Americans are the only race required by law to be pedigree. For you to be an 'offical' Native American you must have a government card, called the CDIB or "Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood" wich is put out by the BIA "Bureau of Indian Affairs" This card determines your "Indian blood quantum" or how much of your ancestry is 'full native'. To do this they check offical lists of natives such as the Dawes Rolls. If for some reason your ancestors never made it on the 'offical list' too bad your not native. If they did make it on the list then its just a quick calculation to make shure they didn't breed with anyone other than a native... so If you father were 100% native and your mother wasn't then you would be 50%, so far so good... now if you married a non-native then your child would be 25% still ok by the government... now if they married a non-native your grand-child would no longer be a native they would be white or whatever elce thier parents were... no more natve americans. Now what if your child married a 100% native well then they would be 50%, you cant go up on the scale only down.
It is a way to keep us from mixing with others, or if we do to make shure that we will 'offically' dissapear in a few generations.
remember the 2 million I mentioned earlier, if the government pedigree laws were done away with that number would swell to almost 20 million.
why is this important. Well Tribes have certen rights built into the treaties that they signed when they agreed to the reservations. Such as the right to self-rule and the right to government assistance in running the infrastucture of the reservations, such as heat, electricity and other things. Without a decent pedigree you aren't able to apply for Tribal rights or privilages. The most desperatly poor areas of the United States are Reservations such as Rosebud Reservation.
Another thing the card system encourages is animosity among natives, between those who have cards and those who dont and those that support the card and those that don't. The Native community is deeply divided about the role of the 'white cards' and what they mean for the survival of the nations and the people. The issue of who is a 'real indian' and who isn't is a sad result of the card system.
Each Nation has its own rules for who can and can't become a member but again according to federal law they must present a degree of pedigree before they can gain 'offial' reccognition. Many Nations disregard the government quota on blood and are more open on who can join. If a tribe, the Passamoquody of Maine I believe are an example but I'll have to duble check on that, has 100 members but none of them has a government card then the tribe is considered 'extinct' in the US and not offially reccognised. They loose thier tribal lands and any rights they may have had as a tribe. The Passamoquody still hold thier cultural cerimonies and ties but they are unreccognized by the government of the US, Canada reccognized the Passamoquody, but they don't want to have to go to Canada as they have lived for centuries in Maine. They are currently fighting for federal reccognition. Of cource you cant get a card if your tribe isn't reccognized and your tribe cant be reccognized without card carrying members. Catch 22.
wa:do
some links you may find helpful:
http://www.americanindiansource.com/bloodquantum.html
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/govlaw/BIA000418CDIBproposedrule.htm
http://www.airc.org/reservations/index.html
Mr Spinkles
Mr
painted wolf-- if everyone in this tribe is 87.5% or more white, it sounds like the tribe has pretty much died out. It's sad, but the government has to draw the line somewhere I suppose--do you think they should do away with the cards, or just lower the minimum percent of Native blood required to be officially recognized as 'Native American'? What works, in your opinion, and what should be done differently?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thougth Native Americans get some really good benefits in this country, like no taxes for gambling casinos, and a huge advantage in applying to colleges (especially Ivy League universities). I think it is only understandable (in principle) that we would want to know who is 'really' Native American and who isn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thougth Native Americans get some really good benefits in this country, like no taxes for gambling casinos, and a huge advantage in applying to colleges (especially Ivy League universities). I think it is only understandable (in principle) that we would want to know who is 'really' Native American and who isn't.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Mr. Spinkles-
the blood quantum is an artificial number anyway, notice it cant be added to, ie if someone who is 50% and someone who is 100% native have a child that child is 50%, or whatever the lower persentage is. It is designed solely to limit the number of "natives" out there.
Also how much does culture come into who you are?
Do African Americans have to prove they have a pedigree? After all they get some good benifits too, like help into colledge and starting businesses.
as for the sweet bennifits....
Not all Nations run Casinos and the whole casino issue is a hotly debated topic among natives itself. Often once a casino is in, the blood quantum laws and tribal member laws get exagerated to exclude as many people as possible for reasons of greed. Most of the money earned by casinos goes to the non-native investors who gave them the idea in the first place. I'm not a fan of casinos but its up to the individual tribes to decide not me.
Its true that native Businesses don't fall under state tax laws but the states are working on taking that right away. Recently the State of Rhode Island stormed a Native run business for selling cigarettes without the state tax. The police, breaking the soverignty laws arrested the business owner and actually threw the Chief of the tribe (an old man) down the stairs of the business.
Whenever a crime is commited on Native land it becomes a Federal crime. Thus we have a notoriously corrupt Federal Agency ( the BIA) in charge of keeping the laws. The BIA has come under several investigations for such things as brutality, harassment and most recently for stealing the money (millions of dollers) that was supposed to go to the Native landowners for Oil drilling rights.
We get no more 'advantage' in applying for colledge than anyone elce, where natives do get assistance is in paying for colledge if they meet certian conditions. Much like African Americans with the United Negro Colledge Fund. Again certificates of pedigree arn't required.
Natives still pay federal income taxes like everyone elce
If you consider an annual gift of blankets and buffalo meat from the government a great bennifit for the few tribes that get it then I guess so.
Many reservations are in poor shape, some dont have running water or elcetricity, the government uses the sovrenty issue to keep from having to put the nessisary infrastructure in and maintianed, but if there is something that the government wants on native land then sovernty gets tossed out the window... look at Yucca Mtn. for an example.
most of the 'great bennifits' are a misconseption or exageration at best.
To me the big question is who should decide who is a native american?
The tribes or the federal government. Personally I think the tribes should decide or perhaps we should require everyone to carry a race card around?
wa:do
the blood quantum is an artificial number anyway, notice it cant be added to, ie if someone who is 50% and someone who is 100% native have a child that child is 50%, or whatever the lower persentage is. It is designed solely to limit the number of "natives" out there.
Also how much does culture come into who you are?
Do African Americans have to prove they have a pedigree? After all they get some good benifits too, like help into colledge and starting businesses.
as for the sweet bennifits....
Not all Nations run Casinos and the whole casino issue is a hotly debated topic among natives itself. Often once a casino is in, the blood quantum laws and tribal member laws get exagerated to exclude as many people as possible for reasons of greed. Most of the money earned by casinos goes to the non-native investors who gave them the idea in the first place. I'm not a fan of casinos but its up to the individual tribes to decide not me.
Its true that native Businesses don't fall under state tax laws but the states are working on taking that right away. Recently the State of Rhode Island stormed a Native run business for selling cigarettes without the state tax. The police, breaking the soverignty laws arrested the business owner and actually threw the Chief of the tribe (an old man) down the stairs of the business.
Whenever a crime is commited on Native land it becomes a Federal crime. Thus we have a notoriously corrupt Federal Agency ( the BIA) in charge of keeping the laws. The BIA has come under several investigations for such things as brutality, harassment and most recently for stealing the money (millions of dollers) that was supposed to go to the Native landowners for Oil drilling rights.
We get no more 'advantage' in applying for colledge than anyone elce, where natives do get assistance is in paying for colledge if they meet certian conditions. Much like African Americans with the United Negro Colledge Fund. Again certificates of pedigree arn't required.
Natives still pay federal income taxes like everyone elce
If you consider an annual gift of blankets and buffalo meat from the government a great bennifit for the few tribes that get it then I guess so.
Many reservations are in poor shape, some dont have running water or elcetricity, the government uses the sovrenty issue to keep from having to put the nessisary infrastructure in and maintianed, but if there is something that the government wants on native land then sovernty gets tossed out the window... look at Yucca Mtn. for an example.
most of the 'great bennifits' are a misconseption or exageration at best.
To me the big question is who should decide who is a native american?
The tribes or the federal government. Personally I think the tribes should decide or perhaps we should require everyone to carry a race card around?
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
painted wolf-- of course the blood quantum can't be added to....that's simple genetics. If my father is 100% German and my mother is not, I am not 100% German. And of course the government is anal about who is Native and who is not...Natives have sovereignty rights etc., so whether or not a person is a Native American is pretty important.
Someone can probably figure out pretty easily if they are African American....just look at your parents and figure it out. If you are 50% or more African American, there you go. If someone is 60% white then I hate to burst their bubble but they are not African American, they are white. But African Americans do not get to own land sovereign from the federal government.
I'm not saying Native Americans are in a very good situation, and I am not saying they are treated fairly...I'm just trying to understand the issue from the government's point of view.
I'm not saying Native rights are as great a deal as advertised, but I am pretty sure that Native Americans (and indeed blacks) have a huge advantage when applying to colleges, especially the Ivy League colleges.
Someone can probably figure out pretty easily if they are African American....just look at your parents and figure it out. If you are 50% or more African American, there you go. If someone is 60% white then I hate to burst their bubble but they are not African American, they are white. But African Americans do not get to own land sovereign from the federal government.
I'm not saying Native Americans are in a very good situation, and I am not saying they are treated fairly...I'm just trying to understand the issue from the government's point of view.
I'm not saying Native rights are as great a deal as advertised, but I am pretty sure that Native Americans (and indeed blacks) have a huge advantage when applying to colleges, especially the Ivy League colleges.
Needless to say, white applicants hardly stand a chance.
The above is quoted from http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051101030
Fra.Morelia
Member
Actually, quick, most of the Native Tribes welcomed the europeans with open arms. Not the action of a people who would have done the same if they could have.
And on the entire 'gun' thing. So if I went over to someones house, broke in and shot everyone, they just went nature's way? funny thing about nature, but I have yet to see a grizzly with a Mossberg. That's man's way. Always has been, always will be. And why? Entirely too many people think it is natural....
And on the entire 'gun' thing. So if I went over to someones house, broke in and shot everyone, they just went nature's way? funny thing about nature, but I have yet to see a grizzly with a Mossberg. That's man's way. Always has been, always will be. And why? Entirely too many people think it is natural....
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Quick-
WTF? right of conquest? If we wanted to kill you off we could have done it when you showed up. Except for a handfull of instances, all the conflicts between settlers/colonists and natives were started by settlers/colonists.
Mr. Spinkles-
The funny thing about Native Americans is that we don't all fit the Holywood stereotype, Eastern Nations look different (lighter skin for example) from Planes Nations ('typical indians') from Northern Nations (like the Inuit who are more 'asian' looking) to the North Western Nations (who sometimes had facial hair) ect cetera... so just looking doesn't work
again should the government make that choice or should the Tribes?
ever hear of the "one drop law"?
Sovrenty rights only become important in matters of Land Use and local government issues on the Reservations, not all natives live on the reservations. The soverenty was not a gift of the government but a condition of the treaties they signed when the indian wars were ended. Thus this has no bearing on African Americans who were taken from thier homelands to begin with.
Unfortuantly America isn't the best at keeping its own treaties with other countries.
As for college applications that is an issue to bring up with the colleges not something that can be blamed on the "special privliages" of being a minority.
For every supposed benifit there are more 'inconviences' such as discrimination (A bank in Oklahoma refuses to give loans to Natives see: http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4236 )
we are more likely to get pulled over when we drive:
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4217
Then ther is racial profiling:
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4196
and the fact that we are the only race of people who make good "mascots"
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4557
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4100
I could go on but you get the idea. I'm not saying that people deserve special rights but when it comes to tribal sovernty that is a treaty issue that has been the only way we could maintain our identity in an otherwise hostile environment. Remember the use of Tribal Languages and Religion was banned untill just a few decades ago. Thanks to our soverin land (and stuborness) we were able to keep our culture.
wa:-do
WTF? right of conquest? If we wanted to kill you off we could have done it when you showed up. Except for a handfull of instances, all the conflicts between settlers/colonists and natives were started by settlers/colonists.
Mr. Spinkles-
The funny thing about Native Americans is that we don't all fit the Holywood stereotype, Eastern Nations look different (lighter skin for example) from Planes Nations ('typical indians') from Northern Nations (like the Inuit who are more 'asian' looking) to the North Western Nations (who sometimes had facial hair) ect cetera... so just looking doesn't work
again should the government make that choice or should the Tribes?
ever hear of the "one drop law"?
Sovrenty rights only become important in matters of Land Use and local government issues on the Reservations, not all natives live on the reservations. The soverenty was not a gift of the government but a condition of the treaties they signed when the indian wars were ended. Thus this has no bearing on African Americans who were taken from thier homelands to begin with.
Unfortuantly America isn't the best at keeping its own treaties with other countries.
As for college applications that is an issue to bring up with the colleges not something that can be blamed on the "special privliages" of being a minority.
For every supposed benifit there are more 'inconviences' such as discrimination (A bank in Oklahoma refuses to give loans to Natives see: http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4236 )
we are more likely to get pulled over when we drive:
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4217
Then ther is racial profiling:
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4196
and the fact that we are the only race of people who make good "mascots"
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4557
http://nativetimes.com/index.asp?action=displayarticle&article_id=4100
I could go on but you get the idea. I'm not saying that people deserve special rights but when it comes to tribal sovernty that is a treaty issue that has been the only way we could maintain our identity in an otherwise hostile environment. Remember the use of Tribal Languages and Religion was banned untill just a few decades ago. Thanks to our soverin land (and stuborness) we were able to keep our culture.
wa:-do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
That's sort of what I am asking you. What should be done differently? Even if the Tribes choose who is Native and who is not, there still have to be guidelines...so, what should the guidelines be?painted wolf said:
I did not blame anyone, painted wolf, I merely stated a fact.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I think that the choice of who joins a tribe should be left to the tribes to decide.
Tribes already have guidelines (and have for decades if not centuries), some more complex than others.
For instance to become a member of the Cherokee nation (once you get your CDIB) you must have an ancestor who is present on the Dawes Roll or one of the other historical lists of Cherokees. In addition traditional Cherokee geneology is traced through the mother; most native tribes are Matrilinial. In the modern day however, some leeway is allowed for the patrilinial nature of 'modern' society. While you can become a government accepted Indian if traced through your father, you must find someone to adopt you into one of the clans to become a Cherokee.
Other tribes have thier own laws on who can become a tribal member. Again the degree of strictness varies but none will just let anyone join up.
I'm shure if you wanted to learn more you could find info on the specific Nations web sites.
wa:do
Tribes already have guidelines (and have for decades if not centuries), some more complex than others.
For instance to become a member of the Cherokee nation (once you get your CDIB) you must have an ancestor who is present on the Dawes Roll or one of the other historical lists of Cherokees. In addition traditional Cherokee geneology is traced through the mother; most native tribes are Matrilinial. In the modern day however, some leeway is allowed for the patrilinial nature of 'modern' society. While you can become a government accepted Indian if traced through your father, you must find someone to adopt you into one of the clans to become a Cherokee.
Other tribes have thier own laws on who can become a tribal member. Again the degree of strictness varies but none will just let anyone join up.
I'm shure if you wanted to learn more you could find info on the specific Nations web sites.
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
What you are saying makes sense....the Tribes should be allowed to decide for themselves who is a member and who is not, that only seems fair.
painted wolf said:
I think you missed my point. All successful cultures export conquest. No Indian tribes had the technology to invade Europe, but they would if they could have. The various tribes had vicious land squabbles in America before and after the first Europeans arrived in the modern era. If the Stone Age tribes could have built 75 foot boats and "explored" Europe they would have. We get way too caught up in all this--successful cultures conquer less successful ones. Get over it.
Also, don't forget about Kennewick Man--we white men may have been here first! What happened to us? We must have been overcome by Indian generosity. If only the Clinton Admin had not bowed to tribal pressure and covered up or "shepherded" the discovery and subsequent research. See the link below:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html
If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that all major cultures conquer, and have been conquered; all major cultures have had slaves and have been enslaved; and all major cultures have both positive and negative traits (at least as we humans use the terms). This blame game is beyond ridiculous.