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Did Consciousness Evolve as a Defense Mechanism?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A friend and I were discussing this the other day as a thought exercise. That is, we were trying to come up with plausible reasons why consciousness could have evolved as a defense mechanism.

Among the reasons our epic brain-storming came up with:

1) Consciousness divides the world into subject and object. That is, it is a lens through which the "I", the ego, the self -- whatever you want to call the subject of the subject/object relationship -- is perceived by us as separated from the rest of the world. And, if you are going to defend yourself, then -- in at least some circumstances -- you are required to have a notion of your self as being apart from that which you wish to defend it. But how and for what purpose did our brains evolve to perceive that division?

2) Many threats to us do not require us to be conscious in order to avoid and/or deal with them. Bacteria cope with many of the threats to them without ever being conscious of those threats. Moreover, it does not require consciousness in order to duck when a stone or javelin is thrown at us. But -- and it's a huge but -- there are certain kinds of threats that do seem to require consciousness to recognize. For instance, it seems to require consciousness for us to recognize that someone is scheming or plotting against us. That some kinds of threats can only be recognized as threats through conscious thought seems to argue that consciousness might have arisen as a defense mechanism.

We came up with various other reasons for entertaining the thought that consciousness may have evolved as a defense mechanism (along with a few reasons why it might not have evolved as a defense mechanism), but I forget most of those now. At any rate, what do you make of the notion? What would be some plausible reasons why consciousness might have evolved as a defense mechanism? What would be some plausible reasons why it might not have?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Q. Did Consciousness Evolve as a Defense Mechanism?

A. No.

Brilliantly reasoned! I see you're quite the conversationalist, too. Remind me not to attend the same parties as you. :D
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sunstone, am I having deja vu or have we discussed this before?

I don't know. I forget, but it's possible. I was discussing it with a friend the other day and he and I have discussed it before.

I think it was Jiddu Krishnamurti who said consciousness is repetitive.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
I don't know. I forget, but it's possible. I was discussing it with a friend the other day and he and I have discussed it before.

I think it was Jiddu Krishnamurti who said consciousness is repetitive.

Might have been in the chat. Anywho, it sounds plausible. Being able to create a mental model of self helps to coordinate the body, which would allow for better defense. I doubt it's the only reason (or main reason) but it seems to be one of many perks to its development.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
... it seems to be one of many perks to its development.

That's what I'm leaning towards. Doesn't seem to me at this point that it's the only evolutionary reason for consciousness, but it could be a reason -- one among others.

For instance, I think you could make a plausible case that consciousness might have also evolved to facilitate or make possible long-term planning.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Brilliantly reasoned! I see you're quite the conversationalist, too. Remind me not to attend the same parties as you. :D
You asked a simple question and I answered in an equally simple manner. What more is there to say? However, just for you, here is a more wordy answer: "No. Consciousness did not Evolve as a Defense Mechanism.




BTW, as a reminder, don't come to any parties I attend.
icon14.gif


We good now?
.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You asked a simple question and I answered in an equally simple manner. What more is there to say? However, just for you, here is a more wordy answer: "No. Consciousness did not Evolve as a Defense Mechanism.




BTW, as a reminder, don't come to any parties I attend.
icon14.gif


We good now?
.


:sleep:Your opinion is even more boring the second time around.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
How about: Consciousness - Yes, as far as senses go.

Self awareness - No, as far as sensing those senses go.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
What would be some plausible reasons why consciousness might have evolved as a defense mechanism? What would be some plausible reasons why it might not have?

By consciousness, I am meaning everything to do with thought processes, memory, awareness etc. For me, the Nature of God is the first point of call. At some point there was something that was "simple" a "singularity". For whatever reason, this changed; it somehow evolved awareness then consciousness full blown. Awareness I would define in this instance as like a babe which is aware of things without being consciousness in the sense of what the shapes and colours are that it sees. But the same question arises, why? And it is a good question, because we are all here because of it, we are the Fractal action of that Consciousness as it develops through many different levels of the Mind. But still, why??
Let me start from this point of view. We do not know HOW life came about originally on this planet before evolution took hold. Thus there is this same, why and how? All we can say at present is that it did in both cases. The problem with the question per se is that one would require consciousness in order to ask why is there consciousness. As this did not exist at first, then somehow it developed without such a thought in the first place—as thoughts were not present. So it is hard to say that it is something which came about through necessity for survival. So we seem to have the same problem. It somehow evolves, develops, but there is nothing which is consciously directing it. As Dawkins cop out to the way things are seems to be, "Why not, it had to turn out some way, why not this way;" it might be that we are left with just that. I can say that Awareness was first—like the babe—and that that developed into Consciousness proper, (this is why it is reflected in us as Man). So on reflection, I don't think that it was necessary for survival, but rather just an awareness of Self. It would however, turn into being necessary for survival. The point of consciousness when it develops is that it is AWARE that it exists! Thus it does not want to die. This seems to be fundamental in the idea of Self and Consciousness being aware of that.
Now to take it to a deeper level, this would entail that everything is consciousness—as that is what it comes from relative to us—and is in line with modern science theory (Hagelin, Goswami etc). Thus we would then see that everything is the Original Consciousness, the Source of all Primordial Life. As Awareness is something that seems to trigger thought, it is the first print of Self.
But awareness of what?
Just as a cat or dog might sit on a doorstep watching the leaves blow round in the wind, because they see the movement, which triggers their primordial instincts that it might be a mouse etc, then also Awareness did the same. Somehow movement came about. This is the trigger for Awareness. This means that Awareness within the Source of God would have to be present already even if dormant.
What then was the movement?
God is said to be immutable, unchangeable. What then, or how, did it change from something which is not supposed to change. Essentially it did not, nor could, yet there was change, there was something which was noticed which brought about Awareness and then full blown Consciousness. As we are created in the Image, this suggest that it was the movement of that which began to leave its own Being. In other words, conscious-self left its abode, the Primordial Monad of Existence. Again this suggests that it is already there. As Hoffman says that all science theories are based on existing ones, then this suggests the same with this idea. It was then an empting of its Mind, just as the lord "emptied himself".
Though I am no nearer answering your question, I can say that another factor was involved, and that is, rest. Seen in the seventh day, after all the employment of Creation, we see the powers of God return to their former Self, rest. Thus the Creation is the emptying of mind, which allows the powers to return to their former Self. The point of rest is that it makes one restless. So we see that there is a possibility there for movement through that restlessness. Again, this is supposing that these things are already present within Source at that time. (Source is the Primordial part of God- somewhere within it, just as the big-bang, are we, and everything).

So to bring this back to planet earth, the shorthand answer to why there is consciousness here is that it is evolving following a Fractal Print of the One that it left. The question is never, Why is it like this here, it is always, Why was it like that within the Primordial beginning, because everything follows this perfect pattern, but through forgetfulness within memory, we see imperfections.

Now from a higher point of view again, we mentioned that Consciousness when it develops is aware that it exists and does not want to die. But the question then arises, why would it think it was going to die? Why would it die? If this were part of God, why die? Is God not perfect? Therein we see that the essence of God is the same, its actual being, and yet the Consciousness, which is obviously not necessary for its own existence—or why would it fear death—changes and can also die. This changing of Mind or renewing of Thought, leaves other thought out to dry as it were. When one realises that everything we see is Thought, is Consciousness, then we see why nothing wishes to die. No Thought wishes to be lost. Yet this does effect the Primordial Singularity which it came from. Thus we must deduce that what is before has no need of it, but what comes after wishes to be like that which it left, and yet free from it. This is the free spirit idea of the human mind.

So now we see what the reason is. Consciousness wishes to be free from That-which-it-Is, and thus, though the Source has no need of it, the Consciousness wishes to be its own independent Self. It wishes to leave the Temple complex and make its own Temple, it wishes to Reflect That-which-it-sees. Consciousness has been within like someone dormant in a coma on a life support machine; at that point, the body does not need consciousness as the life support machine can keep them alive. But Consciousness after its Rest, begins to develop and grows. Thus it is a threat to its very Existence, so has to leave. It is the male lion driven off from its pack. Thus we see the threat and the act of survival needed which is within that Consciousness. Consciousness therefore cannot be with Source as the Primordial Mover of all things, for it has to be its own NEW Self, like a Son to a Father. This beginning of new Realms within this released Consciousness is seen in us, Man. We are separate with our own ideas, and at some point, we shall be the thing I talk about. We shall be a primordial-mover, a starter of new beginnings. It is inevitable as Consciousness does not want to die, even if in doing that it is recycled, cyclic.

Summary:
So in short, everything has to be based on something which is already there, existing (Hoffman) which everything else comes from. This is dormant, in Rest as we would understand it. From this rest Awareness grew and then Super-Consciousness. This Separated from its own Self, and formed the All, (relative to us, our universe). It was an act of defence in order that it would not die. It wished to live, to develop; we are evidence of that as Man. It is seen, for example, in our fascination of leaving this planet, and perhaps finding a wormhole which takes us to another universe in order to sustain the human line, (Kaku); something which in itself is ridiculous when one considers that we cannot look after those in front of our face, let alone those not seen nor know yet; but we see WHY now, as we are doing exactly the same thing as the Primordial Super-Consciousness; We do not want to die as a species. Even what we lose as Man is recycled.

So in short, I would say you have something there :)
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Sunstone,

Among the reasons our epic brain-storming came up with:
Surely we always have such brainstorming over drinks/beer. What were you drinking and how much had you guys drunk?
Consciousness divides the world into subject and object.
Its the mind that divides and when you are conscious of what the mind is doing, it becomes ONE! It seems all your logic was totally drunk!
it seems to require consciousness for us to recognize that someone is scheming or plotting against us
Surely after few drinks our minds are all messed up and we get plots for good scripts where we are conscious of schemers against us etc.

Wasn't that a good party conversation?
hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give a shout when you are serious, lol!

Love & rgds
 

ametist

Active Member
No, it is not. But it is fractured in individual sense and it isnt fully possible to understand it when that is the case. it helps you to operate in physical life and provides you the ability to find the tools to 'larger' parts of your consciousness.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Its the mind that divides and when you are conscious of what the mind is doing, it becomes ONE!

Seriously? That's your argument complete with no reasoning and/or evidence? Surely now it's you who are drinking. Enjoy your beer now, ZZ.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
No, it is not. But it is fractured in individual sense and it isnt fully possible to understand it when that is the case. it helps you to operate in physical life and provides you the ability to find the tools to 'larger' parts of your consciousness.

Are these things you have been told and take on faith, or are they things you have reason and/or evidence to believe?
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
A friend and I were discussing this the other day as a thought exercise. That is, we were trying to come up with plausible reasons why consciousness could have evolved as a defense mechanism.

Among the reasons our epic brain-storming came up with:

1) Consciousness divides the world into subject and object. That is, it is a lens through which the "I", the ego, the self -- whatever you want to call the subject of the subject/object relationship -- is perceived by us as separated from the rest of the world. And, if you are going to defend yourself, then -- in at least some circumstances -- you are required to have a notion of your self as being apart from that which you wish to defend it. But how and for what purpose did our brains evolve to perceive that division?

2) Many threats to us do not require us to be conscious in order to avoid and/or deal with them. Bacteria cope with many of the threats to them without ever being conscious of those threats. Moreover, it does not require consciousness in order to duck when a stone or javelin is thrown at us. But -- and it's a huge but -- there are certain kinds of threats that do seem to require consciousness to recognize. For instance, it seems to require consciousness for us to recognize that someone is scheming or plotting against us. That some kinds of threats can only be recognized as threats through conscious thought seems to argue that consciousness might have arisen as a defense mechanism.

We came up with various other reasons for entertaining the thought that consciousness may have evolved as a defense mechanism (along with a few reasons why it might not have evolved as a defense mechanism), but I forget most of those now. At any rate, what do you make of the notion? What would be some plausible reasons why consciousness might have evolved as a defense mechanism? What would be some plausible reasons why it might not have?


Interesting question, to which my initial reaction would be to mention that considering there is no agreed account of what consciousness is, arriving at a specific cause or role for it will be difficult to say the least.

Its an inherently broad and somewhat ambiguous term, and i would imagine that to ask specific questions about evolutionary role and thus causation (eg is it a defence mechanism) will require us to isolate specific aspects of that large and ill-defined beast we call consciousness.

Thinking briefly about it, i can see consciousness has a number of different parts to it, (none of which are completely well defined either) such as awareness and awakeness, self-awareness, qualitative experience, subjectivity, sense of unity over time, phenomenological experiences and so on.

Obviously we can look at various aspects of consciousness and see if it suggests a role in life and thus a likely evolutionary cause for its existence. The question of do these aspects of consciousness positively affect in reality is an interesting one, and raises that consideration of philosophical zombies.

In addition to whether a part of consciousness serves some function and thus might have evolved still begs the question did it need to evolve? or also did it infact evolve for that role, or is it simply a by-product of other evolved processes?

In my mind i imagine that through the evolution of a highly complex entity such as the human brain, certain conditions have been created that serve evolutionary requirements but have also provided some inbuilt flexibility that has allowed it to change adapt and grow in ways that are not strictly limited to evolutionary need.

Roles for having consciousness and its various aspects probably relate to its uses in a number of things such as; social coordination, flexible and adaptive performance for ambiguous and novel situations, a way of having live informational access, as well as creating some intrinsic system of motivation.

Finally with reference to you mentioning a defence mechanism role specifically, the first thing that crossed my mind was how making certain thing not part of consciousness could be a defence mechanism. For example, you are spared trauma from constantly being active in your conscious mind, and also simple awareness, most of what you process about the world around you doesnt enter consciousness, as if it did you would be rendered insane with information overload!
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
2) Many threats to us do not require us to be conscious in order to avoid and/or deal with them. Bacteria cope with many of the threats to them without ever being conscious of those threats. Moreover, it does not require consciousness in order to duck when a stone or javelin is thrown at us. But -- and it's a huge but -- there are certain kinds of threats that do seem to require consciousness to recognize. For instance, it seems to require consciousness for us to recognize that someone is scheming or plotting against us. That some kinds of threats can only be recognized as threats through conscious thought seems to argue that consciousness might have arisen as a defense mechanism.
In a similar vein, I've heard arguments that imagination can act as a defense mechanism: we can "test" hypothetical scenarios in our heads before we choose a course of action. Effectively, it's risk-free experience. Probably not as useful or accurate as real world experience, but this downside is outweighed by the fact that it can be had without any cost or danger to ourselves.

Now... does imagination require consciousness? I'd say it does, probably.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Sunstone,

Its the mind that divides and when you are conscious of what the mind is doing, it becomes ONE!
Seriously? That's your argument complete with no reasoning and/or evidence?

Can 'mind' think of the present? No never whatever thinking the mind does it is about the past or the future and that is what 'division' is.
To be Present one needs to be one with consciousness and at that moment the mind is incapable of thinking!

You still unclear, do point it out, shall retry.

[meantime a 'BB' beer break] hardly feel like drinking these days as meditating is the strongest intoxication or as Karl Marx said 'religion is the opium of the people' true but in another sense.

Love & rgds
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Consciousness or awareness helps creatures to avoid danger, so how could it have not evolved as some form of defense mechanism? A higher level of awareness or consciousness meant a greater chance of survival. More conscious creatures had an edge over less conscious creatures.
 
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