Did God make the rules?

[Riverwolf]

Something I recently wondered: people often say that God made the rules, either as a precursor to "therefore, He should not be questioned," or as an argument that He doesn't exist because He could have made a better world with better rules.

But I have to wonder, is that really the case? Did God, in fact, make all the rules, or were they there with Him the whole time, unable to be altered? Or are the rules somehow "part" of God?

Do any Scriptures say that God made the rules? That is, before the world was made, He was the only thing that existed: an independently aware, omnipotent Being, and absolutely nothing else?

As an addendum: I'm not asking if God could have made the rules; I'm just asking if He did, and for Scriptural support.

 

[Meow Mix]

Something I recently wondered: people often say that God made the rules, either as a precursor to "therefore, He should not be questioned," or as an argument that He doesn't exist because He could have made a better world with better rules.

But I have to wonder, is that really the case? Did God, in fact, make all the rules, or were they there with Him the whole time, unable to be altered? Or are the rules somehow "part" of God?

Do any Scriptures say that God made the rules? That is, before the world was made, He was the only thing that existed: an independently aware, omnipotent Being, and absolutely nothing else?

As an addendum: I'm not asking if God could have made the rules; I'm just asking if He did, and for Scriptural support.

Regardless of whether Scripture supports it, it's impossible.

Consider identity, the state of affairs where something is what it is (A = A).

God couldn't have created that. Imagine for a moment the cart-before-the-horse absurdity of God trying to create logic (including identity): how was God Himself in the first place in order to create it?

God = God after all.

Neither is identity "part of God." Identity operates fine outside of God or in a hypothetical nonexistence of God.

So, God couldn't have created it and it isn't a part of God. Thus if God exists then your hunch may be right: there are things that exist regardless of God which God has no control over.

 

[Meow Mix]

Please see my extended argument at: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...transcendental-argument-nonexistence-god.html

 

[Riverwolf]

So, God couldn't have created it and it isn't a part of God. Thus if God exists then your hunch may be right: there are things that exist regardless of God which God has no control over.

But not necessarily "higher" than God, as you so well argued. My hunch is closer to the idea of the rules existing (apparently) eternally alongside God, and He being the manipulator of them.

Think of it like this: the rules are God's tools.

 

[Meow Mix]

But not necessarily "higher" than God, as you so well argued. My hunch is closer to the idea of the rules existing (apparently) eternally alongside God, and He being the manipulator of them.

Think of it like this: the rules are God's tools.

In this case, indeed "higher" is descriptive. God is contingent on identity (after all, God = God) but identity isn't contingent on God.

Thus identity is higher.

 

[TheKnight]

According to some Hasidic positions, God and His will are one, and the Torah is his will. Therefore if He is one with His will, and He has always been, then so has His will, and thus so has the Torah.

 

[Riverwolf]

In this case, indeed "higher" is descriptive. God is contingent on identity (after all, God = God) but identity isn't contingent on God.

Thus identity is higher.

And thus, logic is "higher." (Right? Clearly you're better at logic than I am. lol) It would appear that God is still contingent on the rules of logic, at the very least.

Going by the model that God is entirely a separate entity like the rest of us, that would be true (though I'm still uncomfortable with the term "higher"... then again, I am a theist and freely admit that I know of no other English word to describe the state accurately).

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Something I recently wondered: people often say that God made the rules, either as a precursor to "therefore, He should not be questioned," or as an argument that He doesn't exist because He could have made a better world with better rules.

But I have to wonder, is that really the case? Did God, in fact, make all the rules, or were they there with Him the whole time, unable to be altered? Or are the rules somehow "part" of God?

Do any Scriptures say that God made the rules? That is, before the world was made, He was the only thing that existed: an independently aware, omnipotent Being, and absolutely nothing else?

As an addendum: I'm not asking if God could have made the rules; I'm just asking if He did, and for Scriptural support.

Of course he made the rules! Who else could have? People? Nonsense! Why would people feel the need to make rules and say that they were given by a higher power? They would be so arbitrary otherwise.

 

[Meow Mix]

And thus, logic is "higher." (Right? Clearly you're better at logic than I am. lol) It would appear that God is still contingent on the rules of logic, at the very least.

Going by the model that God is entirely a separate entity like the rest of us, that would be true (though I'm still uncomfortable with the term "higher"... then again, I am a theist and freely admit that I know of no other English word to describe the state accurately).

"Higher" just as in God is contingent on it, but it isn't contingent on God.

God can't exist without it, but it can exist without God, in other words.

This is sort of like squares can't exist without rectangles (squares ARE rectangles, so if a square exists then a rectangle exists) but rectangles can exist without squares -- not an exact analogy, but similar.

Since God is contingent on identity, God can't have created identity; nor can God have control over it. Therefore there is at least one thing that exists independently of God and which is transcendentally higher than God in that God couldn't exist if it didn't but not the other way around.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Riverwolf,

Did God make the rules?

Sorry brother, know of no god forget about any rules.
Yes, existence has certain laws of its own, which it follows religiously and understanding them and living harmoniously with them one too finds harmony with existence.

Love & rgds

 

[Gloone]

Something I recently wondered: people often say that God made the rules, either as a precursor to "therefore, He should not be questioned," or as an argument that He doesn't exist because He could have made a better world with better rules.

But I have to wonder, is that really the case? Did God, in fact, make all the rules, or were they there with Him the whole time, unable to be altered? Or are the rules somehow "part" of God?

Do any Scriptures say that God made the rules? That is, before the world was made, He was the only thing that existed: an independently aware, omnipotent Being, and absolutely nothing else?

As an addendum: I'm not asking if God could have made the rules; I'm just asking if He did, and for Scriptural support.

Well, to put it simple I knew of nothing before I was born and there is no telling what I will know after I’m gone (which is probably nothing) so just being here is enough for me to believe.

 

[stlekee]

So that thing that's higher than god is the real God.

 

[Meow Mix]

So that thing that's higher than god is the real God.

That doesn't make sense any more than calling a sock "god" makes sense.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Regardless of whether Scripture supports it, it's impossible.

Consider identity, the state of affairs where something is what it is (A = A).

God couldn't have created that. Imagine for a moment the cart-before-the-horse absurdity of God trying to create logic (including identity): how was God Himself in the first place in order to create it?

God = God after all.

Neither is identity "part of God." Identity operates fine outside of God or in a hypothetical nonexistence of God.

So, God couldn't have created it and it isn't a part of God. Thus if God exists then your hunch may be right: there are things that exist regardless of God which God has no control over.

Just a thought.

Identity isn't really anything is it? We use it to categorize life for utility, but other than that it doesn't exist.

So to determine that something is real or not real by identity seems flawed some how.

 

[sojourner]

Something I recently wondered: people often say that God made the rules, either as a precursor to "therefore, He should not be questioned," or as an argument that He doesn't exist because He could have made a better world with better rules.

But I have to wonder, is that really the case? Did God, in fact, make all the rules, or were they there with Him the whole time, unable to be altered? Or are the rules somehow "part" of God?

Do any Scriptures say that God made the rules? That is, before the world was made, He was the only thing that existed: an independently aware, omnipotent Being, and absolutely nothing else?

As an addendum: I'm not asking if God could have made the rules; I'm just asking if He did, and for Scriptural support.

That's not the strict understanding, at least in the creation myths. First of all, there really is no "the beginning," as is popularly translated. There is no really equitable translation of the Hebrew in that sentence. About the best we can do is "when God began to create..." and even that's not indicative of the finesse of the language used.

Second, it's at least somewhat clear that there was something there when God began to create with it. I understand that what was there was chaos, and God brought order to that chaos. "Order" would = "rules," no?

 

[sojourner]

Regardless of whether Scripture supports it, it's impossible.

Consider identity, the state of affairs where something is what it is (A = A).

God couldn't have created that. Imagine for a moment the cart-before-the-horse absurdity of God trying to create logic (including identity): how was God Himself in the first place in order to create it?

God = God after all.

Neither is identity "part of God." Identity operates fine outside of God or in a hypothetical nonexistence of God.

So, God couldn't have created it and it isn't a part of God. Thus if God exists then your hunch may be right: there are things that exist regardless of God which God has no control over.

Except that's not how it works. :no: You're assuming that God does not exist. furthermore, you're assuming that, even if God does exist, the entire creation is not "in" God.

Those of us who espouse a belief in God understand the entire creation to be "in" God. Therefore, God doesn't have an identity, God is identity.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Except that's not how it works. :no: You're assuming that God does not exist. furthermore, you're assuming that, even if God does exist, the entire creation is not "in" God.

Those of us who espouse a belief in God understand the entire creation to be "in" God. Therefore, God doesn't have an identity, God is identity.

Wrong approach SJ...

Her response will be and rightly so, that regardless of how you mix it up, idenity as we know it would still precede God. an apple is an apple, it can't stop being an apple.
God is God, God can't stop being God. Which denotes the power and precedence of identity.

Which is why I posted a different approach, identity doesn't really exist, outside of our utility for it, so to judge something valid or not with identity seems flawed.

 

[sojourner]

Wrong approach SJ...

Her response will be and rightly so, that regardless of how you mix it up, idenity as we know it would still precede God. an apple is an apple, it can't stop being an apple.
God is God, God can't stop being God. Which denotes the power and precedence of identity.

Which is why I posted a different approach, identity doesn't really exist, outside of our utility for it, so to judge something valid or not with identity seems flawed.

Well, yes. I think you're on to something here.

 

[Riverwolf]

"Higher" just as in God is contingent on it, but it isn't contingent on God.

God can't exist without it, but it can exist without God, in other words.

This is sort of like squares can't exist without rectangles (squares ARE rectangles, so if a square exists then a rectangle exists) but rectangles can exist without squares -- not an exact analogy, but similar.

I don't think there's ever existed exact analogies. ^_^

Since God is contingent on identity, God can't have created identity; nor can God have control over it. Therefore there is at least one thing that exists independently of God and which is transcendentally higher than God in that God couldn't exist if it didn't but not the other way around.

I'd probably argue that there are others, as well. A Sage once said that "there is one thing God cannot do: separate Himself from us." Well, that statement has all sorts of implications as to what God can and can't do.

 

[Riverwolf]

So that thing that's higher than god is the real God.

Not necessarily.

The God-concept that I'm dealing with has sentience of its own. The only way this thing would be the real God is if it were independently sentient.