Did Jesus create mankind (Adam)?

[Soapy]

It is believed that ‘Jesus’, as the Son of God, created all things: The heavens and the earth; all things on the earth and in the heavens, the angels (Seraphims, Cherubims, Archangels, Messenger angels, etc., and even Adam and Eve as the beginning of mankind.

But is this true and where, if it is, can evidence be shown of this.

I am suggesting that almighty God; the Father (YHWH), and He alone, created all things by using His Spirit (His eternal active force) which was ‘with Him’ in the beginning, which is shown in Genesis 1…

And, the Title question… God consorted with His greatest and most majestic angel, in the creation of mankind, saying to him: ‘Let us create man in our image’.

That angel, called ‘Lucifer’ at that time, created the body of the first man, named ‘Adam’ because of the red soil in the area, After thus GOD blew the breathe of Adam into the inactive body and Adam became a living Soul.

Nowhere in that narrative is there any reference to ‘Son’ or ‘Jesus’.

What’s your take on the matter?

 

[amazing grace]

It is believed that ‘Jesus’, as the Son of God, created all things: The heavens and the earth; all things on the earth and in the heavens, the angels (Seraphims, Cherubims, Archangels, Messenger angels, etc., and even Adam and Eve as the beginning of mankind.

But is this true and where, if it is, can evidence be shown of this.

I am suggesting that almighty God; the Father (YHWH), and He alone, created all things by using His Spirit (His eternal active force) which was ‘with Him’ in the beginning, which is shown in Genesis 1…

And, the Title question… God consorted with His greatest and most majestic angel, in the creation of mankind, saying to him: ‘Let us create man in our image’.

That angel, called ‘Lucifer’ at that time, created the body of the first man, named ‘Adam’ because of the red soil in the area, After thus GOD blew the breathe of Adam into the inactive body and Adam became a living Soul.

Nowhere in that narrative is there any reference to ‘Son’ or ‘Jesus’.

What’s your take on the matter?

I agree that God was conversing with his "heavenly council", but I don't agree that one of them was Lucifer or that Lucifer created the body of the first man. From where do you draw this conclusion?

 

[Soapy]

I agree that God was conversing with his "heavenly council", but I don't agree that one of them was Lucifer or that Lucifer created the body of the first man. From where do you draw this conclusion?

Good question and one that is rarely looked at in any proper manner.

Thanks, at least for agreeing that it was the Father who created… being that the very title, ‘Father’, means:

• ‘Creator’…
• ‘He that brings into being…’
• ‘He that gives life’…

The title, ‘Son’, means:

• ‘He who died the works of the Father’

but this is not linked to creation of the world nor to the body or spirit of mankind but ‘works in the world’ seeing that Adam, himself, was the first ‘HUMAN Son of God’ but who deviated from the commands his Father and God gave him to do, by taking destiny in his own hands …. doing what he desired to do, thus bringing sin into mankind.

And as for Lucifer… Everyone hates the idea that such a creation as ‘SATAN’ could be the creator of the BODY of Adam… BUT Lucifer WAS NOT ‘THE SATAN’ at the time that God says, ‘Let us create man in our image’.

Lucifer was, at that time, a DUTIFUL SPIRIT SON OF GOD. He was a glorious angel, the highest of all of them, proud, the brightest, the most bejewelled, and ‘The most intelligent’ of them all… and you know that angels ARE GREATER IN POWER AND INTELLIGENCE THAN HUMANITY … at this time (‘For he [man] was made a little lower than the angels’)

But please read CAREFULLY!!! I did not say that Lucifer created ‘MAN’ but only that he created the BODY OF MAN. It was GOD that made the man a LIVING SOUL - a LIVING PERSON… It is the SPIRIT IN MAN that counts - NOT THE BODY!!

Therefore it is not counted to praise angels,.. we must not glorify nor bow down in worship to them. So that is why it is not mentioned that the body was made by an angel - the highest of Gods angels… and I don’t desire to do that but only to show the correct order of things and set out exactly what was meant by ‘Let us…’ and ‘We…’ in the odd place that such dual relationship is mentioned…. ‘Us’ and ‘We’ does not mean a ‘Trinity THREE’ else your question really would be ‘Where on earth or in Heaven does such a claim come from or be shown?’ To which the answer is ‘Nowhere’ since TRINITY only came about some several tens of years AFTER Jesus died, resurrected, and was taken up to Heaven BY THE Father…

And, as for angels being able to make a body…. A human body is not much different to any animal body…. An Ape, for instance, is said to be only one chromosome different to a human SO ONCE AGAIN I’m saying that it is the SPIRIT in the body that is counted - not the working of, nor mechanics, of the enclosing ‘Container’ for that spirit.

And, did not the demon angels in the days of the rebellion from Heaven create ‘human-like bodies’ for themselves. But they could not create a spirit to go into those bodies: God is the only one who can create a Spirit… thus, the angels, bring Spirits themselves, put THEMSELVES into those bodies and came to impregnate human women to create offsprings called ‘Nephilims’.

Looking back over what I just wrote… there is not even a hint of a THREE PERSON GOD intervention… not even TWO… but GOD ALONE… The workmen who were employed to build the great house get no credit after the great house is built… Their ‘Glory’ is in THEIR knowledge that THEY were employed to do so…. Angels must not be glorified.

But here we have the next part of the saga….. LUCIFER DID DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPPED …. Why?

Because he was involved in the GREATEST CREATION: MAN….!!! He desired to be worshipped because he created the body of man but discovered that ONLY GOD was to be worshipped… thus anger, rage, jealousy, envy, grew in him … and we know the result of that!
And that is why Lucifer was given the title of ‘[The] Satan’, an opposer [to Godliness, wisdom, and righteousness]

As the most glorious angel in God’s ‘committee’, Lucifer was/is ‘The Overseer’ of God’s creation. In 1 Timothy 3 we are told that the overseer of God’s Church ‘must not become puffed up with pride lest he suffer the same fate as the devil (Satan/Lucifer). And we know that Lucifer / Satan is indeed the ‘STEWARD’ of the created world - ‘The Prince’ of this world.. who relinquished the throne to ’The King’ who is to come: Jesus Christ!! (Hence Satan tried to ‘hand Jesus the kingdom BEFORE it was legally given to him and avoid pain, suffering, humiliation, and DEATH, if Jesus was to simply bow down and worship him (Satan): ‘It is mine to give to whom I will if you bow down and worship me!’

The main problem is that the mass majority of Christian religious people make their start point about Lucifer as being ‘SATAN. But he WAS NOT SO IN THE BEGINNING… He BECAME SO after he was denied worship by mankind… WHY WOULD HE DO THAT if he were not PART of the creation of that which he desired worship from: Man.

And who is being attacked today… the greatest attack is the Male man, because it is the male man who stood up to Satan in the beginning when Satan tried to deceive him into sinning. Today, Satan is throwing everything in his anger at maleness to undermine God’s holy order. So Satan is STILL SEEKING that worship but is going on the attack in a different way…!

So, you wanted to know… now you do!!

 

[amazing grace]

Good question and one that is rarely looked at in any proper manner.

Thanks, at least for agreeing that it was the Father who created… being that the very title, ‘Father’, means:

• ‘Creator’…
• ‘He that brings into being…’
• ‘He that gives life’…

The title, ‘Son’, means:

• ‘He who died the works of the Father’

but this is not linked to creation of the world nor to the body or spirit of mankind but ‘works in the world’ seeing that Adam, himself, was the first ‘HUMAN Son of God’ but who deviated from the commands his Father and God gave him to do, by taking destiny in his own hands …. doing what he desired to do, thus bringing sin into mankind.

And as for Lucifer… Everyone hates the idea that such a creation as ‘SATAN’ could be the creator of the BODY of Adam… BUT Lucifer WAS NOT ‘THE SATAN’ at the time that God says, ‘Let us create man in our image’.

Lucifer was, at that time, a DUTIFUL SPIRIT SON OF GOD. He was a glorious angel, the highest of all of them, proud, the brightest, the most bejewelled, and ‘The most intelligent’ of them all… and you know that angels ARE GREATER IN POWER AND INTELLIGENCE THAN HUMANITY … at this time (‘For he [man] was made a little lower than the angels’)

But please read CAREFULLY!!! I did not say that Lucifer created ‘MAN’ but only that he created the BODY OF MAN. It was GOD that made the man a LIVING SOUL - a LIVING PERSON… It is the SPIRIT IN MAN that counts - NOT THE BODY!!

What does this mean then: "then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground" if it was actually Lucifer that created the body of man?

Therefore it is not counted to praise angels,.. we must not glorify nor bow down in worship to them. So that is why it is not mentioned that the body was made by an angel - the highest of Gods angels… and I don’t desire to do that but only to show the correct order of things and set out exactly what was meant by ‘Let us…’ and ‘We…’ in the odd place that such dual relationship is mentioned…. ‘Us’ and ‘We’ does not mean a ‘Trinity THREE’ else your question really would be ‘Where on earth or in Heaven does such a claim come from or be shown?’ To which the answer is ‘Nowhere’ since TRINITY only came about some several tens of years AFTER Jesus died, resurrected, and was taken up to Heaven BY THE Father…

I also agree that 'us' and 'we' in connection with God is not referring to a 'trinity' but to "the council of the holy ones" - the 'host of heaven' - angels.

And, as for angels being able to make a body…. A human body is not much different to any animal body…. An Ape, for instance, is said to be only one chromosome different to a human SO ONCE AGAIN I’m saying that it is the SPIRIT in the body that is counted - not the working of, nor mechanics, of the enclosing ‘Container’ for that spirit.

And, did not the demon angels in the days of the rebellion from Heaven create ‘human-like bodies’ for themselves. But they could not create a spirit to go into those bodies: God is the only one who can create a Spirit… thus, the angels, bring Spirits themselves, put THEMSELVES into those bodies and came to impregnate human women to create offsprings called ‘Nephilims’.

I don't want to get into the Nephilim but after the fall, all things were disrupted from the "good" God intended, such as the plants growing up from the ground producing "thorns and thistles" - so things were "genetically" messed with. So, it was with human beings, fallen angels changing the genetic makeup of humanity. I don't believe that these angels actually had sex with human women - and that is all I have to say about that.

Looking back over what I just wrote… there is not even a hint of a THREE PERSON GOD intervention… not even TWO… but GOD ALONE… The workmen who were employed to build the great house get no credit after the great house is built… Their ‘Glory’ is in THEIR knowledge that THEY were employed to do so…. Angels must not be glorified.

But here we have the next part of the saga….. LUCIFER DID DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPPED …. Why?

Because he was involved in the GREATEST CREATION: MAN….!!! He desired to be worshipped because he created the body of man but discovered that ONLY GOD was to be worshipped… thus anger, rage, jealousy, envy, grew in him … and we know the result of that!
And that is why Lucifer was given the title of ‘[The] Satan’, an opposer [to Godliness, wisdom, and righteousness]

As the most glorious angel in God’s ‘committee’, Lucifer was/is ‘The Overseer’ of God’s creation. In 1 Timothy 3 we are told that the overseer of God’s Church ‘must not become puffed up with pride lest he suffer the same fate as the devil (Satan/Lucifer). And we know that Lucifer / Satan is indeed the ‘STEWARD’ of the created world - ‘The Prince’ of this world.. who relinquished the throne to ’The King’ who is to come: Jesus Christ!! (Hence Satan tried to ‘hand Jesus the kingdom BEFORE it was legally given to him and avoid pain, suffering, humiliation, and DEATH, if Jesus was to simply bow down and worship him (Satan): ‘It is mine to give to whom I will if you bow down and worship me!’

The main problem is that the mass majority of Christian religious people make their start point about Lucifer as being ‘SATAN. But he WAS NOT SO IN THE BEGINNING… He BECAME SO after he was denied worship by mankind… WHY WOULD HE DO THAT if he were not PART of the creation of that which he desired worship from: Man.

And who is being attacked today… the greatest attack is the Male man, because it is the male man who stood up to Satan in the beginning when Satan tried to deceive him into sinning. Today, Satan is throwing everything in his anger at maleness to undermine God’s holy order. So Satan is STILL SEEKING that worship but is going on the attack in a different way…!

So, you wanted to know… now you do!!

I believe that Lucifer, aka the serpent, aka the devil, aka Satan fell sometime between Gen. 1:1 when "God created the heavens and the earth" and Gen. 1:2 when "the earth was without from and void". Something cataclysmic happened to make the heavens and earth empty nothingness. We have to remember that the Bible is not written in exact chronological order as any other book.

Adam did not stand up to Satan - he was there when Eve was being tempted - "she gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate". He knew God's commandment just as well as Eve did and as "head" over his wife - he should have stood his ground and said NOPE . . . sin and death through sin entered through Adam.

 

[Soapy]

What does this mean then: "then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground" if it was actually Lucifer that created the body of man?

Angels are not to be glorified. So Lucifers part is not shown directly so that he should be glorified. When I visit my cousin and he shows me the new extension to his house and the sculpted garden, he says only: ‘I built this part so I could have a bigger kitchen. I did the garden as the old one really wasn’t a good view through my new patio windows.’ … ‘I’, ‘Me’… built it… did it… no mention of the workmen!!! It is ‘my/his’ glory!

I also agree that 'us' and 'we' in connection with God is not referring to a 'trinity' but to "the council of the holy ones" - the 'host of heaven' - angels.

Ok.

I don't want to get into the Nephilim but after the fall, all things were disrupted from the "good" God intended, such as the plants growing up from the ground producing "thorns and thistles" - so things were "genetically" messed with. So, it was with human beings, fallen angels changing the genetic makeup of humanity. I don't believe that these angels actually had sex with human women - and that is all I have to say about that.

No need to respond but the Bible says that the [Spirit] Sons of God came into the daughters of Man…

I believe that Lucifer, aka the serpent, aka the devil, aka Satan fell sometime between Gen. 1:1 when "God created the heavens and the earth" and Gen. 1:2 when "the earth was without from and void". Something cataclysmic happened to make the heavens and earth empty nothingness. We have to remember that the Bible is not written in exact chronological order as any other book.

That cannot be so. Lucifer was the glorious leading angel. Creation of the earth would have involved it being empty in the beginning. The earth was filled with water on the surface and hard rock underneath and God’s Spirit and the angels were used to reshape so that land appeared and boundaries were set so water didn’t rise up more than so. And a separation was made between the land and the skies and laws put in place so the waters circulated up from the sea into the sky and fall again onto the land - and run off from the land into the sea - repeat!!

Adam did not stand up to Satan - he was there when Eve was being tempted - "she gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate". He knew God's commandment just as well as Eve did and as "head" over his wife - he should have stood his ground and said NOPE . . . sin and death through sin entered through Adam.

You miss my point. ADAM WITHSTOOD Satan and do Satan picked on Eve. When Satan deceived Eve, ADAM GAVE IN TO EVE… That is why God said ‘Because you listened to the voice of your wife…!!’

 

[amazing grace]

Angels are not to be glorified. So Lucifers part is not shown directly so that he should be glorified. When I visit my cousin and he shows me the new extension to his house and the sculpted garden, he says only: ‘I built this part so I could have a bigger kitchen. I did the garden as the old one really wasn’t a good view through my new patio windows.’ … ‘I’, ‘Me’… built it… did it… no mention of the workmen!!! It is ‘my/his’ glory!

So, Gen. 1:7 is a lie in that God did not "form man from the dust of the ground" but Lucifer actually did?

Ok.

No need to respond but the Bible says that the [Spirit] Sons of God came into the daughters of Man…

Yes, I know what it says.

That cannot be so. Lucifer was the glorious leading angel. Creation of the earth would have involved it being empty in the beginning. The earth was filled with water on the surface and hard rock underneath and God’s Spirit and the angels were used to reshape so that land appeared and boundaries were set so water didn’t rise up more than so. And a separation was made between the land and the skies and laws put in place so the waters circulated up from the sea into the sky and fall again onto the land - and run off from the land into the sea - repeat!!

1) God created the heavens and earth, yet He created them 2) "without form and empty"? What about Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it; he did not create it empty but he formed it to be inhabited!)"
.
Again, the scriptures do not say that the angels had a hand in creation.

You miss my point. ADAM WITHSTOOD Satan and do Satan picked on Eve. When Satan deceived Eve, ADAM GAVE IN TO EVE… That is why God said ‘Because you listened to the voice of your wife…!!’

Where is the record of Adam withstanding Satan and that is why Satan picked on Eve?
Yes, because Adam listened to the voice of his wife AND ate of the tree; they both disobeyed God.

 

[Soapy]

So, Gen. 1:7 is a lie in that God did not "form man from the dust of the ground" but Lucifer actually did?
Yes, I know what it says.

Do not glorify angels…. So no record is made of their part in creation…..!!
“I built the double width garage in my garden!’…. ‘All by myself.. I alone built it’… Means: ‘I had no FINANCIAL HELP FROM ANYONE!’. The ACTUAL EMPLOYED BUILDERS are not GLORIFIED in my glorification of the structural build.

I’m sure you are straining at a gnat in understanding here… or purposely trying to deny what is otherwise a very common theme!!

1) God created the heavens and earth, yet He created them 2) "without form and empty"? What about Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it; he did not create it empty but he formed it to be inhabited!)"

Now I know you are just joshing!!!!

Again, the scriptures do not say that the angels had a hand in creation.

How many more times!!!!!!! So what do you think God created angels for… and what do you think they were doing while God was creating the world and everything in it!??

I know you are just joking now!! But why??

• “Where is the record of Adam withstanding Satan and that is why Satan picked on Eve?”
• Yes, because Adam listened to the voice of his wife AND ate of the tree; they both disobeyed God.

You answers your own question…

 

[amazing grace]

Do not glorify angels…. So no record is made of their part in creation…..!!
“I built the double width garage in my garden!’…. ‘All by myself.. I alone built it’… Means: ‘I had no FINANCIAL HELP FROM ANYONE!’. The ACTUAL EMPLOYED BUILDERS are not GLORIFIED in my glorification of the structural build.

I’m sure you are straining at a gnat in understanding here… or purposely trying to deny what is otherwise a very common theme!!

First I ever heard of Lucifer having a hand in creating man or that the angels had a hand in creation.

Now I know you are just joshing!!!!

Why is it that you cannot just plainly answer a question?

How many more times!!!!!!! So what do you think God created angels for… and what do you think they were doing while God was creating the world and everything in it!??

I know you are just joking now!! But why??

• “Where is the record of Adam withstanding Satan and that is why Satan picked on Eve?”
• Yes, because Adam listened to the voice of his wife AND ate of the tree; they both disobeyed God.

You answers your own question…

I believe that God conferred with His heavenly council/the heavenly host but I don't believe the angels had a hand in creating and especially Lucifer.

Just don't agree with you. Thanks

 

[Soapy]

First I ever heard of Lucifer having a hand in creating man or that the angels had a hand in creation.

And why would you unless you are shown it to be so… it’s not something easily seen since ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE GLORIFIED in their duties as their reward is to do what God commands them! The focus of creation is on the MASTER - not on the WORKERS!! The focus of the scriptures is on GOD - not his created spirit creations (Angels).

But if you want a peek then read Ezekiel 28:12 where Lucifer is outlined briefly. Sin grew him as he desired to be worshipped since he was involved in the greatest creation - man: ‘Let us create man in our image!’… why shouldn’t I also be worshipped by man… I did help to create him after all!!!?’ (Anecdotally)

Why is it that you cannot just plainly answer a question?

Your denials frustrate me - I answered you but you just keep frustrating the point.

I believe that God conferred with His heavenly council/the heavenly host but I don't believe the angels had a hand in creating and especially Lucifer.

Just don't agree with you. Thanks

And that is why you do not understand what is being told to you. Does the CEO of a business carry out the company work? Or does he employ workers to do the work that a committee/council agrees on?

In the UK it is said that ‘Christopher Wren BUILT Westminster Abbey’, a great building in London. Did Christopher Wren built it with his own hands or did the builders he employed do the actual work… He ALONE is CREDITED - no workers are credited at all…!!!
And also London’s St Paul’s Cathedral:

• “The new St Paul's Cathedral was built by renowned English architect, Sir Christopher Wren. St Paul Cathedral is one of the landmarks of the city of London, and it is the second-largest church building in the area in the UK.”

THERE IS NO RECORD OF ANGEL / WORKER INVOLVEMENT SUCH THAT WE SHOULD GLORIFY THEM….!!

What were the angels doing in Heaven and on earth as God created… just sitting around - legions of angels just sitting there - immense power and intelligence: a man cuts down a huge tree using his bare hands even though he has immensely powerful tools sitting at his disposal?? A man clears an overgrown field using his bare hands even though there are workers he has employed sitting watching him toil daily, sweating, heaving in expended energy… why forces of powerful energies sit watching him?

No, @amazing grace, you are desperately wrong and are feeling wrongful ideas. It is not glorifying a worker who does as he is directed to do if his payment is that he should be doing the work he is given to do… and remember that holy angels are ‘Sons of Gods’., and that ‘a Son of God’ is ‘He who dies the commands of God’.
@amazing grace, how are angels ‘Sons of God’ if they DID NOTHING.. and WERE DOING NOTHING?

Your answer should be ‘I don’t know!!’, and quite right!!! You do not want to know because you have a hang up at the thought that angels were commanded and d exited exactly what God ordered them to do in the creation… Angels are SERVANTS… Does a master clean the house, cook the food, wash the clothes, tend the garden, turn the soil, dig the trench, etc., and the servants sit by watching him do so?

For what reason did God create incredibly powerful and highly intelligent angels then?

 

[Jimmy]

I think God created everything at the same time.

 

[Soapy]

1) God created the heavens and earth, yet He created them 2) "without form and empty"? What about Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it; he did not create it empty but he formed it to be inhabited!)"

You asked this question and asked why I can’t just answer a simple question ….

@anazing Grace, there is nothing to answer to that question… because I AM NOT DISAGREEING with the scriptures that you quote.

I’m not sure what you point was: You pinpointed DIFFERENT TIME ASPECTS as thought they are not related:
1) The earth WAS FORMLESS at the moment of its creation. That is SCIENTIFIC - any documentary will show you that at the ‘Big Bang’ there was no FORM to the universe… hot gasses circulated and then coalesced into rock and rock into ball shapes which are planets and stars. The stars remained hot and shining and the planets cooled into globe shapes due to equal gravitation forces around it… nothing strange about! So now the planet’s surface has nothing but hot rock cooling and gases swirling. Some cooling gases turn to liquid state and oceans form…. What else… Deep forces create cracks in the crust and certain type of different hot rock spews out that create land (I saw a video documentary just a week ago….!) and the waters now have a boundary. Due to the heat some water become vapours and clouds are formed and rise up to a certain level and then fall again as what we call ‘Rain’. Microbes developed in the seas and produced oxygen which dominated the gaseous atmosphere which allowed living life to develop… the rest is as Genesis 1.

What do you want me to say???

What do you want me to answer to you?

Which part is something I appear to deny in your mind?

I really do not understand your question and that you should think I’m evading answering you - I was flabbergasted that you asked such a question!!

 

[amazing grace]

And why would you unless you are shown it to be so… it’s not something easily seen since ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE GLORIFIED in their duties as their reward is to do what God commands them! The focus of creation is on the MASTER - not on the WORKERS!! The focus of the scriptures is on GOD - not his created spirit creations (Angels).

But if you want a peek then read Ezekiel 28:12 where Lucifer is outlined briefly. Sin grew him as he desired to be worshipped since he was involved in the greatest creation - man: ‘Let us create man in our image!’… why shouldn’t I also be worshipped by man… I did help to create him after all!!!?’ (Anecdotally)

You are right it is not easily seen! Scripture does say "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." and I believe that He was conversing with His heavenly court, heavenly host - the angels. But then scripture clearly says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Now wouldn't, if a plurality of persons created man, plural pronouns be used? You can use any analogy you need to explain your premise but I don't agree.

Yes, Ezekiel 28:11-19 is about the origin of Satan (and says nothing about him having a hand in creating man). Isaiah 14 tells of his fall because of pride.
In Genesis 3, Satan is already against God. If Satan did not fall between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2 causing the earth to become without form and void, since that is not the way God created it (Isaiah 45:18) and there is a 6-day creation, then he had to fall while Adam and Eve were in the garden. It seems it would have taken many years for the pride to so build in Satan's heart that he would consider rebelling against God, and even more years for him to convince 1/3 of the angels to join him. So, it seems the question would be when did Satan fall?

Your denials frustrate me - I answered you but you just keep frustrating the point.

And that is why you do not understand what is being told to you. Does the CEO of a business carry out the company work? Or does he employ workers to do the work that a committee/council agrees on?

In the UK it is said that ‘Christopher Wren BUILT Westminster Abbey’, a great building in London. Did Christopher Wren built it with his own hands or did the builders he employed do the actual work… He ALONE is CREDITED - no workers are credited at all…!!!
And also London’s St Paul’s Cathedral:

• “The new St Paul's Cathedral was built by renowned English architect, Sir Christopher Wren. St Paul Cathedral is one of the landmarks of the city of London, and it is the second-largest church building in the area in the UK.”

THERE IS NO RECORD OF ANGEL / WORKER INVOLVEMENT SUCH THAT WE SHOULD GLORIFY THEM….!!

What were the angels doing in Heaven and on earth as God created… just sitting around - legions of angels just sitting there - immense power and intelligence: a man cuts down a huge tree using his bare hands even though he has immensely powerful tools sitting at his disposal?? A man clears an overgrown field using his bare hands even though there are workers he has employed sitting watching him toil daily, sweating, heaving in expended energy… why forces of powerful energies sit watching him?

No, @amazing grace, you are desperately wrong and are feeling wrongful ideas. It is not glorifying a worker who does as he is directed to do if his payment is that he should be doing the work he is given to do… and remember that holy angels are ‘Sons of Gods’., and that ‘a Son of God’ is ‘He who dies the commands of God’.
@amazing grace, how are angels ‘Sons of God’ if they DID NOTHING.. and WERE DOING NOTHING?

Your answer should be ‘I don’t know!!’, and quite right!!! You do not want to know because you have a hang up at the thought that angels were commanded and d exited exactly what God ordered them to do in the creation… Angels are SERVANTS… Does a master clean the house, cook the food, wash the clothes, tend the garden, turn the soil, dig the trench, etc., and the servants sit by watching him do so?

For what reason did God create incredibly powerful and highly intelligent angels then?

I don't know exactly what the angels were doing while God created since scripture is silent. I do know that God spoke to them regarding the creation of man because scripture says God spoke to them. Then scripture says God created - God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

 

[amazing grace]

You asked this question and asked why I can’t just answer a simple question ….

@anazing Grace, there is nothing to answer to that question… because I AM NOT DISAGREEING with the scriptures that you quote.

I’m not sure what you point was: You pinpointed DIFFERENT TIME ASPECTS as thought they are not related:
1) The earth WAS FORMLESS at the moment of its creation. That is SCIENTIFIC - any documentary will show you that at the ‘Big Bang’ there was no FORM to the universe… hot gasses circulated and then coalesced into rock and rock into ball shapes which are planets and stars. The stars remained hot and shining and the planets cooled into globe shapes due to equal gravitation forces around it… nothing strange about! So now the planet’s surface has nothing but hot rock cooling and gases swirling. Some cooling gases turn to liquid state and oceans form…. What else… Deep forces create cracks in the crust and certain type of different hot rock spews out that create land (I saw a video documentary just a week ago….!) and the waters now have a boundary. Due to the heat some water become vapours and clouds are formed and rise up to a certain level and then fall again as what we call ‘Rain’. Microbes developed in the seas and produced oxygen which dominated the gaseous atmosphere which allowed living life to develop… the rest is as Genesis 1.

What do you want me to say???

What do you want me to answer to you?

Which part is something I appear to deny in your mind?

I really do not understand your question and that you should think I’m evading answering you - I was flabbergasted that you asked such a question!!

Ok. Gen. 1:1 says God created the heavens and earth.
Gen. 1:2 says the earth was without form and void
Isaiah 4518 says God didn't create it that way . . . . How did it get that way?
Look, I don't deny scripture - what I am denying is your premise "That angel, called ‘Lucifer’ at that time, created the body of the first man, named ‘Adam’ because of the red soil in the area,"

 

[Soapy]

What does this mean then: "then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground" if it was actually Lucifer that created the body of man?

I also agree that 'us' and 'we' in connection with God is not referring to a 'trinity' but to "the council of the holy ones" - the 'host of heaven' - angels.

I don't want to get into the Nephilim but after the fall, all things were disrupted from the "good" God intended, such as the plants growing up from the ground producing "thorns and thistles" - so things were "genetically" messed with. So, it was with human beings, fallen angels changing the genetic makeup of humanity. I don't believe that these angels actually had sex with human women - and that is all I have to say about that.

I believe that Lucifer, aka the serpent, aka the devil, aka Satan fell sometime between Gen. 1:1 when "God created the heavens and the earth" and Gen. 1:2 when "the earth was without from and void". Something cataclysmic happened to make the heavens and earth empty nothingness. We have to remember that the Bible is not written in exact chronological order as any other book.

Adam did not stand up to Satan - he was there when Eve was being tempted - "she gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate". He knew God's commandment just as well as Eve did and as "head" over his wife - he should have stood his ground and said NOPE . . . sin and death through sin entered through Adam.

Did you read 1 Timothy 2:14?

• “And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”

Adam was not deceived but his error that brought sun was to not resist his wife (Eve) when SHE tempted him.

 

[amazing grace]

Did you read 1 Timothy 2:14?

• “And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”

Adam was not deceived but his error that brought sun was to not resist his wife (Eve) when SHE tempted him.

Right, Adam was not directly deceived by the serpent (devil) Eve was directly deceived and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil before Adam did. The fact that Adam knew exactly what he was doing---breaking a command of God---and did it anyway shows that Adam deliberately sinned which could be why the Bible attributes the Fall of mankind to Adam and not to Eve or even to Adam and Eve.

 

[Audie]

It is believed that ‘Jesus’, as the Son of God, created all things: The heavens and the earth; all things on the earth and in the heavens, the angels (Seraphims, Cherubims, Archangels, Messenger angels, etc., and even Adam and Eve as the beginning of mankind.

But is this true and where, if it is, can evidence be shown of this.

I am suggesting that almighty God; the Father (YHWH), and He alone, created all things by using His Spirit (His eternal active force) which was ‘with Him’ in the beginning, which is shown in Genesis 1…

And, the Title question… God consorted with His greatest and most majestic angel, in the creation of mankind, saying to him: ‘Let us create man in our image’.

That angel, called ‘Lucifer’ at that time, created the body of the first man, named ‘Adam’ because of the red soil in the area, After thus GOD blew the breathe of Adam into the inactive body and Adam became a living Soul.

Nowhere in that narrative is there any reference to ‘Son’ or ‘Jesus’.

What’s your take on the matter?

No

 

[Soapy]

Right, Adam was not directly deceived by the serpent (devil) Eve was directly deceived and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil before Adam did. The fact that Adam knew exactly what he was doing---breaking a command of God---and did it anyway shows that Adam deliberately sinned which could be why the Bible attributes the Fall of mankind to Adam and not to Eve or even to Adam and Eve.

Glad you agree.

Eve removed a barrier that had held Adam in the command of God:

• ‘In the day that you eat from the tree you will surely die!’

Adam saw that Eve had eaten AND WAS NOT DEAD!

But, of course, God did not mean:

• ‘[IMMEDIATE] Dead in their Body’ but
• ‘[ULTIMATE] Destruction of their Spirit’

 

[Soapy]

No

Good answer!

Can you elaborate on your answer?

 

[Soapy]

You are right it is not easily seen! Scripture does say "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." and I believe that He was conversing with His heavenly court, heavenly host - the angels. But then scripture clearly says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Now wouldn't, if a plurality of persons created man, plural pronouns be used? You can use any analogy you need to explain your premise but I don't agree.

I find it fascinating that certain people and churches pick out the SUMMARY OF CREATION as THE CREATION process.

The scriptures clearly says that God created ONE MAN IN HIS IMAGE (because God is ONE!!!)

This one man carried all the attributes of God in that he was image of God. The man, Adam, carried out many commands of God, dutifully, which is why he is called ‘Son of God’.

Finally, on a day, God decided that Adam was not live ALONE but must have a companion. God asked Adam to choose a companion from among the animals. But Adam could find none that suited him. God was determined that man was not to live without a companion so he ‘Put Adam into a deep sleep’ (what does that mean, exactly?) and took out of him a ‘RIB’. God then fashioned that rib into another human being which Adam (after he was woken from his deep sleep!) called a ‘Wo-Man’ because: “She was taken out of Man”.

Now think about this:

1. Was Adam ANDROGYNOUS (Having both male and female features) when God first created him?
2. Was the ‘Rib’ taken out of Adam a metaphor for ‘those attributes that now differentiate a man from a woman: e.g. Reproductive Apparatus; Vanity; Naturally long hair; Nurturing (as opposed to Husbandry); desire for mildness of body (as opposed to strength of body); etc…
3. After Adam sinned, God set a curse on Adam but a lesser curse on Eve. That curse on Eve was that she should be ‘in desire of her husband’!!
4. Eve was not created directly from ‘Dust of the earth’ as was Adam. That Eve is also ‘image of God’ is simply as a consequence of the fact that she was “taken out of the man who is image of God” (A spoonful of soup is still the same soup from which it was spooned from)
5. Because Eve was taken out of Adam, a man requires a woman in order to procreate offspring. Of course, in animals, this separation was already established as a normally since animals continually live in a prey/preyed on environment. One provides defence and attack and sustenance (Husbandry), and the other provides offspring birth, care, nurture, comforting… (Motherhood) - But Man was create as a SINGLE ENTITY.

Yes, Ezekiel 28:11-19 is about the origin of Satan (and says nothing about him having a hand in creating man). Isaiah 14 tells of his fall because of pride.

Yes… AFTER the creation…. In the Garden of Eden…

In Genesis 3, Satan is already against God. If Satan did not fall between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2 causing the earth to become without form and void, since that is not the way God created it (Isaiah 45:18) and there is a 6-day creation, then he had to fall while Adam and Eve were in the garden. It seems it would have taken many years for the pride to so build in Satan's heart that he would consider rebelling against God, and even more years for him to convince 1/3 of the angels to join him. So, it seems the question would be when did Satan fall?

You cannot say ‘days’ and ‘years’ in regard to creation a the universe as a whole… These terms are only used to put a metaphorical elapse time on the matter. I really hope you aren’t going to say you believe that God create the world in LITERALLY SIX FULL ROTATIONS OF THE EARTH?

I don't know exactly what the angels were doing while God created since scripture is silent. I do know that God spoke to them regarding the creation of man because scripture says God spoke to them. Then scripture says God created - God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

@amazing grace, why are you struggling to deny what is obvious???

The angels were not just sitting around doing NOTHING.. GOD CREATED THEM FOR HIS PURPOSE: To do His Will.

God does not PHYSICALLY DO THINGS.. God is Spirit and His deeds are sins through His SPIRIT CREATIONS (Angels), who are highly intelligent and immensely powerful FORCES.

God say: ‘Do this…’ and His Spirit angels do it.
God say: ‘Do that…’ and His Spirit angels do it.

• “For the word that comes from the mouth of God will by no means return to him until it has performed that which it was sent out to do!”

The Will of God is always performed through an agency. That agency is a SPIRIT… whether an angel Spirit or the Spirit in Man, or in an animal.

In respect of ‘God created man’, why do you think it impossible that ‘THE BODY’ of the man could not be created by an angel…? A body of man is not essentially different to any animal …

I showed you before!!!.

What is different is THE SPIRIT that controls that body!! And it is GOD and God alone who blew the Breathe of life into the lifeless body… Only GOD can create a Spirit because He is “The Father of Spirits”.

It has also been shown that the angels made humanoid bodies for themselves and put their own spirit in them in order to animate those bodies.

Also, you keep on testing the limits of justice in that I keep saying to you that IT IS NOT GIVEN THAT ANGELS SHOULD BE GLORIFIED… The WORKERS of God’s commands are not mentioned / not glorified therefore ONLY GOD is shown as the maker of MAN just as in my analogies the owner of the house says ‘HE’ built the house and not ‘THEY’!

If you truly cannot understand that then listen carefully next time such an occasion arises in any context:

• “I built my house several years ago!”
  • No mention of the workers who did the work on your command!
• “Did you come by yourself in a taxicab? Good thing you knew the way!”
  • No mention of the taxi driver who drive the Cab who you directed to the house!
• “I set up this company by myself!”
  • No mention of the many other agencies involved in setting up a company under your directions

 

[Ebionite]

The scriptures clearly says that God created ONE MAN IN HIS IMAGE (because God is ONE!!!)

"God" is ambiguous.

And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26