Did Jesus practice the occult?

[Ingledsva]

Out of context and skewed beyond belief.

Not in the slightest.

I might add that you are ignoring other corroborating verses - such as Joseph getting ahead in Egypt because he does magic for Pharaoh.

You also post "other" parts, leaving out the verses in question, which PROVE what I said is correct.

Sorry, nothing you said is correct. "Joseph getting ahead in Egypt because he does magic for Pharaoh". Good grief.

Joseph got to where he was for interpreting Pharaoh's dream, given to him by God and interpreted by one of God's servants. Nothing hidden there. He languished in prison for years on false charges of rape.

He was sent ahead to Egypt to preserve Abraham's seed through one of the worst droughts Egypt had ever experienced. His management skills back up by the spirit of his God were what got him ahead.

LOL! Still magic. Let me put it this way. What would you call it when a Wiccan calls on their gods and interprets dreams? Same thing. magic.

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Here is how the LITV (Literal Translation) translates 44:15 -

(LITV) And Joseph said to them, What is this deed which you have done? Did you not know that a man like me would practice divination?

Context!...he was testing his brothers out by not identifying himself to them. His saying that to them was part of his act. Read the whole account and you will see. They had no idea that he was their brother Joseph.
Besides, the law had not been written at that point, so even if Joseph had practiced divination, he would not even have been breaking a law that was not yet law, would he?

LOL! You have been proven wrong - so now it doesn't count because it was a certain date?

I will add that all but one of the many accepted translations show this as magic.

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You will also note that in 44:5, the servant corroborates this by -

44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he (H5172) divines/hisses/incants (H5172) enchantments ? ye have done evil in so doing.

It corroborates nothing. These practices were common in Egypt.

It corroborates that even the servant knew it was a bowl for his magic.

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And more corroboration of Jacob's "RODS" being Divining Robs.


Here is the HRB (Hebraic Roots Bible) translation of Gen 30:41-


(HRB) And it happened that whenever the strong flocks conceived, Jacob placed the rods before the eyes of the flocks, before the troughs, that they might conceive by the rods.

What am I missing here Ingledsva?

Have we not already established that "occult" means hidden.
When it is practiced by the devil and his followers it is occult. The "hidden" misuse of supernatural power for the purpose of deception.

When it is done by God himself it is not occult or hidden. Do you understand that?

It is the source of the power that is the issue. Not the just power itself.

LOL! Only in your mind. If it is evil magic for one side - it is evil magic for the other. You don't get to be a hypocrite.

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And my translation -

Gen 30:41 And when it came to pass that all the flock were in heat, and ready to breed, Jacob put his Divining Rods before the flocks, in the troughs, that they might conceive by the Divining Rods.

YOUR translation? You have your own translation? Why am I not surprised?

Indeed, and as you can see it is right in line with all of the accepted translations, except that I have used "divining rods," which they obviously are - as they are being used for magic. And the Strong's number is "H 4731." look it up and note that "divining rod."

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If you read the story you will find out why he used magic on the flocks! He was told he could take all of the flocks that were ringstraked, speckled, and spotted. Then Laban gave all such to his sons and they left to hide them from Jacob. He used magic rods/wands to make the remaining NON R, S, S flocks breed ringstraked, speckled, and spotted!

God does not do "magic". That was forbidden in Israel as coming from the devil. It is a "detestable" thing to the only one who can authorize the use of supernatural power.

Jacob was definitely doing magic with divining rods, - as anyone can plainly see. Using divining rods to turn solid flock into ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

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KJV (King James) Gen 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

You are still missing the point in your haste to point out so called "divination".
When God does it, it is not hidden or evil. When God blesses his servants by performing supernatural events on their behalf, it is his blessing.... like parting the Red Sea, like turning Aaron's rod into a serpent, like the resurrection of Lazarus....it is the legitimate exercise of God's power through his servants who use it in a legitimate way.
When the devil uses supernatural power to deceive, then it is "occult"...get it?

You folks are hilarious! And hypocrites. Magic is magic is magic! When you use a bowl for magic/scrying, and make magic divining rod/wands just like Wiccans today, - you are exactly the same as them. You don't get to get away with saying, because we used our god while doing magic, it is OK, - and because they used their god while doing magic, it is evil.

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So, -it is you who is wrong.

Let the readers be the judge of that. :ignore:

Oh absolutely. They are after all very intelligent. I think they can figure this out. In fact they can just look up the verses in their own Bibles - and see the words such as divination, and his magic bowl for themselves.

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[Sleeppy]

And you would be wrong. See my reply to JayJayDee.

"diligently observe?" LOL! What do you think he is "diligently observing' in that bowl? Bugs?

He is Scrying in a bowl.

And for your information, - I am translating from the texts, and checking my translations against the generally accepted translations, and Hebrew dictionaries. All of which I have on my computer.

--- I forgot to add that the reason for the magic rods before the flocks - If you read the story you will find out why he used magic on the flocks! He was told he could take all of the flocks that were ringstraked, speckled, and spotted. Then Laban gave all such to his sons and they left to hide them from Jacob. He used magic rods/wands to make the remaining NON R, S, S, flocks breed ringstraked, speckled, and spotted, - so he would have his wage, and inheritance, when he left!


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Look at Strong's again. Using Young's Literal, the words there mean he was very attentive.

He knew when his personal cup went missing. He knew how to interpret people, things, and even dreams.

Anything else is your personal assumption.

 

[Sleeppy]

But if you accept certain words, and certain definitions, you can 'synonym' your way crazy. And undoubtedly, this happens irrespective of intention.

What can we do? Many of us are in agreement, until we speak. Language is still built on the corruptible nature of human perception.

'Sorcery' to a Talmud writer makes perfect sense. Jesus was obviously reputed to be doing some pretty miraculous things. Often in grand scale. 'Sorcery' is an attempt to understand something natural, in my opinion. It was certainly beyond norm, but not unheard of in their history. Elisha was undoubtedly called a sorcerer as well.

'Occult' would be the ignoramus term, explaining a lack of knowledge and means to understand.

 

[Philomath]

Yes Jesus practiced the occuly and Christians are still doing it this day! Look at this video

[youtube]jNCR6PZ4-oA[/youtube]
Robert Tilton - "We've Seen Midgets Grow!" - YouTube

Christians using their occultic powers to make midgets grow!

 

[oldbadger]

Sounds ironic yet in the stories, Jesus did engage in numberology, psychic prophecy, and performed feats of raising the dead and such. It does hint of occult type practices and or influences. Wonder what thoughts, if any, are on it?

Nothing to do with Yeshua's story.
John was on mushrooms. ???
Evangelistic vigour was working hard to add to Yeshua's record.
Hyperbole rampant.

G-Mark does have such evangelistic tradition, but it's much more like the real story.

 

[Athan]

I think the Jesus of the gospels could have been a sorcerer / magician.

Or a wielder of the power of God.

 

[idav]

Yes Jesus practiced the occuly and Christians are still doing it....
Christians using their occultic powers to make midgets grow!

Magic isnt just magic if you are using the power of god. When th3 egyptian magicians turned there staffs I nto snakes so did moses but moses snake ate the magicians snakes! Huge difference when my god is bigger than your god lol.

 

[Philomath]

Magic isnt just magic if you are using the power of god. When th3 egyptian magicians turned there staffs I nto snakes so did moses but moses snake ate the magicians snakes! Huge difference when my god is bigger than your god lol.

The God of the Bible is the one true God....Moses proved it lol

 

[Ingledsva]

Look at Strong's again. Using Young's Literal, the words there mean he was very attentive.

He knew when his personal cup went missing. He knew how to interpret people, things, and even dreams.

Anything else is your personal assumption.

NOPE! Won't fly.

It specifically tells us "drinks with" AND "he Nachash Nachash." (H5172)

I have 16 different Bible versions on my computer, - and all but one (as I said earlier) definitely say it is divination/magic. That one , the YLT, has a rather strange, "diligently observe."

However - it says he uses his "bowl" to "diligently observe."

To diligently observe in a bowl is called SCRYING (magic) as I stated earlier.

So in reality - they all say he used magic!

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[Twilight Hue]

There seems to be "steps" Jesus took according to the Bible. That would suggest ritual imb.

You made some good points Ingledsva.

I also recalled there were steps in healing the blind man as well and a "result" when Jesus's robe was touched as if it held a level of power.

 

[Sleeppy]

NOPE! Won't fly.

It specifically tells us "drinks with" AND "he Nachash Nachash." (H5172)

I have 16 different Bible versions on my computer, - and all but one (as I said earlier) definitely say it is divination/magic. That one , the YLT, has a rather strange, "diligently observe."

However - it says he uses his "bowl" to "diligently observe."

To diligently observe in a bowl is called SCRYING (magic) as I stated earlier.

So in reality - they all say he used magic!

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I understand you. Believe me. But going back in time, thousands of years, to superstitions and ignorances we've since overcome- this is counterproductive.

'Divination' is what? Observations and theory. We can go into any doctors office and throw this word around.

He was observant in regards to his possessions. He explains that to you himself at Genesis 44:15. He makes no mention of any specific action, except that he was very attentive. Enough to tout it over a 'thief'.

 

[Ingledsva]

There seems to be "steps" Jesus took according to the Bible. That would suggest ritual imb.

You made some good points Ingledsva.

I also recalled there were steps in healing the blind man as well and a "result" when Jesus's robe was touched as if it held a level of power.

Yep. He used Spit magic to heal the eyes, rather then just heal.

One of his disciples also sent out material that had touched him to heal people. Boy he had a big ego. LOL.

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[Ingledsva]

I understand you. Believe me. But going back in time, thousands of years, to superstitions and ignorances we've since overcome- this is counterproductive.

'Divination' is what? Observations and theory. We can go into any doctors office and throw this word around.

He was observant in regards to his possessions. He explains that to you himself at Genesis 44:15. He makes no mention of any specific action, except that he was very attentive. Enough to tout it over a 'thief'.

Baloney! He was NOT being "observant in regards to his possessions."

He told the servant to put that specific bowl in their pack. Try again.

How do you use a BOWL to be diligently observant, without it being Scrying????? You don't. He is using magic.

(JPS) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby he indeed divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.'
(KJV) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
(KJV-1611) Is not this it, in which my lord drinketh? and whereby indeed he diuineth? ye haue done euill in so doing.
(LITV) Is this not that in which my lord is accustomed to drink, and divining he divines by it? You have done evil in what you have done.
(Geneva) Is that not the cuppe, wherein my Lorde drinketh? and in the which he doeth deuine and prophecie? ye haue done euill in so doing.
(HRB) Is this not that in which my master usually drinks in, and surely he divines by it? You have done evil in what you have done.
(Brenton) Why have ye stolen my silver cup? is it not this out of which my lord drinks? and he divines augury with it; ye have accomplished evil in that which ye have done.
(Darby) Is not this it in which my lord drinks, and in which indeed he divines? Ye have done evil in what ye have done.
(DRB) The cup which you have stolen, is that in which my lord drinketh, and in which he is wont to divine: you have done a very evil thing.
(Vulgate) scyphum quem furati estis ipse est in quo bibit dominus meus et in quo augurari solet pessimam rem fecistis
(Webster) Is not this the cup in which my lord drinketh, and by which indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
(YLT) Is not this that with which my lord drinketh? and he observeth diligently with it; ye have done evil in that which ye have done.'

(HOT)​

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הלוא זה אשׁר ישׁתה אדני בו והוא נחשׁ ינחשׁ בו הרעתם אשׁר עשׂיתם׃​

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[Twilight Hue]

Yep. He used Spit magic to heal the eyes, rather then just heal.

One of his disciples also sent out material that had touched him to heal people. Boy he had a big ego. LOL.

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One reason why I started this topic. The more I read into it, the more noticeable on how the occult influenced and played into the early roots of Christianity.

Spit magic especially in the manner on how it parallels so well in regards to how Jesus went about healing and such. It was an eye opener (pun not intended but it fits. *grin*) and supports the roots of Christianity as being based on occult and pagan practices.

Spit and Saliva in magickal application - Occult Corpus

 

[Sleeppy]

Baloney! He was NOT being "observant in regards to his possessions."

He told the servant to put that specific bowl in their pack. Try again.

How do you use a BOWL to be diligently observant, without it being Scrying????? You don't. He is using magic.

(JPS) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby he indeed divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.'
(KJV) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
(KJV-1611) Is not this it, in which my lord drinketh? and whereby indeed he diuineth? ye haue done euill in so doing.
(LITV) Is this not that in which my lord is accustomed to drink, and divining he divines by it? You have done evil in what you have done.
(Geneva) Is that not the cuppe, wherein my Lorde drinketh? and in the which he doeth deuine and prophecie? ye haue done euill in so doing.
(HRB) Is this not that in which my master usually drinks in, and surely he divines by it? You have done evil in what you have done.
(Brenton) Why have ye stolen my silver cup? is it not this out of which my lord drinks? and he divines augury with it; ye have accomplished evil in that which ye have done.
(Darby) Is not this it in which my lord drinks, and in which indeed he divines? Ye have done evil in what ye have done.
(DRB) The cup which you have stolen, is that in which my lord drinketh, and in which he is wont to divine: you have done a very evil thing.
(Vulgate) scyphum quem furati estis ipse est in quo bibit dominus meus et in quo augurari solet pessimam rem fecistis
(Webster) Is not this the cup in which my lord drinketh, and by which indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
(YLT) Is not this that with which my lord drinketh? and he observeth diligently with it; ye have done evil in that which ye have done.'

(HOT)​

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הלוא זה אשׁר ישׁתה אדני בו והוא נחשׁ ינחשׁ בו הרעתם אשׁר עשׂיתם׃​

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Sure. Call it whatever you like. There's quite a bit you'd be sure to call 'magic' as well. Cellphones, television, contact lenses, telescopes.. whatever.

We're all 'sorcerers' now. And look! We even hire lawyers for their 'occult' knowledge of our justice systems.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Of course he did. He was a magician doing magic tricks.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sure. Call it whatever you like. There's quite a bit you'd be sure to call 'magic' as well. Cellphones, television, contact lenses, telescopes.. whatever.

We're all 'sorcerers' now. And look! We even hire lawyers for their 'occult' knowledge of our justice systems.

What good does this bull do you?

We were discussing what the Tanakh says.

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[Sleeppy]

What good does this bull do you?

We were discussing what the Tanakh says.

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It helps to put things into perspective. Be at ease.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sure. Call it whatever you like. There's quite a bit you'd be sure to call 'magic' as well. Cellphones, television, contact lenses, telescopes.. whatever.

We're all 'sorcerers' now. And look! We even hire lawyers for their 'occult' knowledge of our justice systems.

What good does this bull do you?

We were discussing what the Tanakh says.

It helps to put things into perspective. Be at ease.

And just how does a snide comment to me, and the bringing in of modern conveniences, - put things in perspective, - in a discussion on what Tanakh says?

And just so you know. I am not a Bible believer. We are discussing translation.

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[Sleeppy]

And just how does a snide comment to me, and the bringing in of modern conveniences, - put things in perspective, - in a discussion on what Tanakh says?

And just so you know. I am not a Bible believer. We are discussing translation.

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I never provided anything malicious. And every one of your posts to me says either 'wrong', 'try again', or 'lol', with a condescending tone. Be at ease, and remain in peace with me.

You've expressed an obvious belief in outdated and stigmatized language, which results from, and in superstition. I can infer this, because you call things with very natural methods and outcomes, within an outdated culture of specific names (divination, magic, occult, etc.).

All of these words exist as results of ignorance, and for the ignorant, to categorize seemingly unexplainable events. This is where Talmud 'sorcery' fits in.

And had I traveled back in time with only my cellphone, thousands of years, to when these words were understandably in common use- they would have tried to stone me, as well.