Did Jesus practice the occult?

[Yoshua]

1. Jesus was not a part of the Tanakh. So using the verses from the OT, as you call it, makes no sense. After all, as so many Christians are so quick to point out, Jesus came to fulfill the law and therefore, the OT does not pertain to him.
2. None of the verses of the NT are germane, and that includes the writings of Paul. Paul never knew Christ and had his own agenda when it came to what he taught. He was a misogynist and hated women for one, so the example of this girl fits right into this hatred of women. They speak of the casting out of demons, not the practice of the occult. Just as one example, you are aware that the idea of a trinical concept is from the occult, non? Not to mention borrowed straight from Egyptology.

Hi Jo,

If the Tanakh has no connection or relevance to Jesus Christ, why these scripture prophesied in the Book of Genesis?

Gen. 3:15
15. And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Her seed offspring is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Gen.22;18
18. "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Jesus Christ will be the seed of Abraham.

Gen. 49:10
10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,

Jesus will be of the tribe of Judah.

Matt. 5:21-22
21. "You have heard that the ancients were told, `You shall not commit murder' and `Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22. "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

If the New Testament is not significant, how come Jesus respected and adhere to the Tanank law/commandment if he is not connected to the Old Testament?

Do you believe that the book of Isaiah, a part of the Old Testament?

If Paul has a new or another agenda, why he introduced and preached Jesus as the son of God who gives eternal life to many?

May I ask your definition or understanding of the "Occult"?

If you are pointing to the trinity as sourced from the occult, you may post a new thread to discuss this further.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Here ya go.
Highly speculated that this is where the beginning of the Christian Trinity came from.

Triads of Egyptian Gods ***

Long but good & interesting article but small print. Go fer it & if ya likes post thoughts if
it fits this thread please.

You may post a new thread in comparative religion or scripture debate to discuss about the triad so I may participate to post my comment.

Thanks

 

[steveb1]

Sounds ironic yet in the stories, Jesus did engage in numberology, psychic prophecy, and performed feats of raising the dead and such. It does hint of occult type practices and or influences. Wonder what thoughts, if any, are on it?

Depends on what is meant by occult. Second Temple Judaism as well as Palestinian folk religion had mystical/magical practices. One was "ascent to Heaven" in which the practicer was said to rise to Heaven and behold God's throne room - perhaps this is what Jesus was referring to when he said that the Son of Man had both ascended and descended to Heaven, and what Paul meant when he said he ascended into Heaven and beheld forbidden things. There are some 28 traits reported of Jesus' ministry that match up well with magical and shamanic practices. This does not mean that he was a magician and/or shaman, but it does indicate that he practiced methods in common with them (healing with mud and spittle, use of special terminology such as Ephatha (Be Opened), claiming to be the only one who knows his deity, exorcism, healing/healing at a distance, identifying himself with sacramental elements, the claim to be able to read minds, etc.

Moreover Jesus left himself open to the charge of sorcery because he consistently failed to identify the source of his powers and authority. Had he viewed himself as a prophet, he would have used the standard prophetic justification, "Thus says the Lord", but he never used the phrase. And when asked what was the source of his authority, he typically evaded the question. It was commonly said of him that he "had" - possessed, or was possessed by - a spirit. His enemies called that spirit Beelzebul and his friends called it "a" - or "the" - holy spirit.

Mysticism and shamanic practice form one basic pillar of Gospel portraits of Jesus' teaching and methodology.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Jo,

If the Tanakh has no connection or relevance to Jesus Christ, why these scripture prophesied in the Book of Genesis?

Gen. 3:15
15. And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Her seed offspring is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Gen.22;18
18. "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Jesus Christ will be the seed of Abraham.

Gen. 49:10
10. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,

Jesus will be of the tribe of Judah.

Matt. 5:21-22
21. "You have heard that the ancients were told, `You shall not commit murder' and `Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22. "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

If the New Testament is not significant, how come Jesus respected and adhere to the Tanank law/commandment if he is not connected to the Old Testament?

Do you believe that the book of Isaiah, a part of the Old Testament?

If Paul has a new or another agenda, why he introduced and preached Jesus as the son of God who gives eternal life to many?

May I ask your definition or understanding of the "Occult"?

If you are pointing to the trinity as sourced from the occult, you may post a new thread to discuss this further.

Thanks

1. You point to verses in the OT, and there are millions of Jewish people who would correctly disagree with you that those verses are about Jesus. The criteria for the messiah are simply missing. Christ was to come from the house of David for one, or the house of Judah. And Mary had no connection to the house of David, nor to the tribe of Judah. That is but one example. You believe that Christ fulfilled these things but that is simply belief on your part. Belief doesn't make it so.
2. If Jesus did adhere to the commandments and laws of the Tanakh, he would have married. Now, there are those who believe he did marry Mary Magdalene, but most Christians deny that. Therefore, he didn't adhere to the Laws as written.
3. The fact that Paul stated that Christ was the son of God has nothing to do with the fact that what he taught was the antithesis of what Christ taught. Christ never taught that women were secondary to men. Nor that they must be silent, cover their heads and so on. That is Paulian dogma.
4. The occult is anything spiritual. here is the definition:

• of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomenaa follower of occult practices
• 2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or experience; mysterious
• 3. communicated only to the initiated; esoteric

How can you not think that Christ was involved in occult practices since everything about him and his teachings fall into these parameters.

 

[Yoshua]

1. You point to verses in the OT, and there are millions of Jewish people who would correctly disagree with you that those verses are about Jesus. The criteria for the messiah are simply missing. Christ was to come from the house of David for one, or the house of Judah. And Mary had no connection to the house of David, nor to the tribe of Judah. That is but one example. You believe that Christ fulfilled these things but that is simply belief on your part. Belief doesn't make it so.
2. If Jesus did adhere to the commandments and laws of the Tanakh, he would have married. Now, there are those who believe he did marry Mary Magdalene, but most Christians deny that. Therefore, he didn't adhere to the Laws as written.
3. The fact that Paul stated that Christ was the son of God has nothing to do with the fact that what he taught was the antithesis of what Christ taught. Christ never taught that women were secondary to men. Nor that they must be silent, cover their heads and so on. That is Paulian dogma.
4. The occult is anything spiritual. here is the definition:

• 
  
  
  • of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomenaa follower of occult practices
  • 2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or experience; mysterious
  • 3. communicated only to the initiated; esoteric

How can you not think that Christ was involved in occult practices since everything about him and his teachings fall into these parameters.

Occult
supernatural, mystical, or magical beliefs, practices, or phenomena.
"a secret society to study alchemy and the occult"
synonyms: the supernatural, the paranormal, supernaturalism, magic, black magic, witchcraft, sorcery, necromancy, wizardry, the black arts, occultism, diabolism, devil worship, devilry, voodoo, hoodoo, white magic, witchery, mysticism;raretheurgy"his interest in the occult"

In general, when someone hears the word "occult," we usually categorize it with sorcery, black magic,wizardry, diabolism.......Your understanding of the definition of occult points to the meaning "supernatural."

Thanks

 

[JoStories]

Occult
supernatural, mystical, or magical beliefs, practices, or phenomena.
"a secret society to study alchemy and the occult"
synonyms: the supernatural, the paranormal, supernaturalism, magic, black magic, witchcraft, sorcery, necromancy, wizardry, the black arts, occultism, diabolism, devil worship, devilry, voodoo, hoodoo, white magic, witchery, mysticism;raretheurgy"his interest in the occult"

In general, when someone hears the word "occult," we usually categorize it with sorcery, black magic,wizardry, diabolism.......Your understanding of the definition of occult points to the meaning "supernatural."

Thanks

How is Christ, being divine and not of this world, not supernatural? I am not saying black magic, or the like but rather that which is magical, mystical, etc. Would you not think that these apply to Jesus? In your belief, he was not a simply man and did many 'miracles' which point to the esoteric and mystical, non? How does this not apply to him?

 

[Yoshua]

How is Christ, being divine and not of this world, not supernatural? I am not saying black magic, or the like but rather that which is magical, mystical, etc. Would you not think that these apply to Jesus? In your belief, he was not a simply man and did many 'miracles' which point to the esoteric and mystical, non? How does this not apply to him?

Yes you may include those two additional terms to the meaning of the word "occult." But in Christianity, we would not use that word to identify Jesus is practicing the occult. This may lead to misinterpretation since the word has covered a lot of supplemental meanings. For non-christian, they are comfortable to use that term for Jesus.

Hope this clarified the word "occult" referring to Jesus.

 

[aoji]

Jesus was scribbling a human transmutation circle in the sand.

My friend believed that he wrote the sins in the sand, cheating, lying, adultery, jealousy, gossip, etc.

 

[aoji]

Jesus did engage in numberology.

Where did you get that idea from?

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Supernatural? There is no supernatural. Nature exists within its own set of laws. Nothing exists in the physical world outside the laws of nature. This has been proven time and time again. The more educated people get, the more they reject claims of the supernatural. The miracles and healings attributed to Jesus was a common literary occurence at that time, especially in Greek culture. They were supposed to give validity as to the "supernature" or superiority of the hero in the story. The story of Apollonius of Tyana is an excellent example.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Where did you get that idea from?

The significance by which Jesus
selected a certain number of disciples, the number of denials made by Peter coinciding with the crowing the cock, his death and resurrection for example suggests that Jesus dealt with particular set numbers as It's told.


I'd pretty much forgotten about this thread.

 

[JoStories]

Yes you may include those two additional terms to the meaning of the word "occult." But in Christianity, we would not use that word to identify Jesus is practicing the occult. This may lead to misinterpretation since the word has covered a lot of supplemental meanings. For non-christian, they are comfortable to use that term for Jesus.

Hope this clarified the word "occult" referring to Jesus.

I apologize if I in any way offended you or your faith. I had hoped to just have a nice discussion as it seems of late that there are not too many good topics or discussions on this board. Just lots of people being snarky with each other. I shall leave this one alone. I wish you peace.
Namaste

 

[Willamena]

Except that Jesus said to the disciples, that he taught the people in parables, so that "hearing they may not understand", but he explained his parables to his disciples in secret.

I think it more likely that he explained his parables to his disciples because they were the ones he shared his parables with.

 

[Yoshua]

I apologize if I in any way offended you or your faith. I had hoped to just have a nice discussion as it seems of late that there are not too many good topics or discussions on this board. Just lots of people being snarky with each other. I shall leave this one alone. I wish you peace.
Namaste

Hi Jo,

Thanks. I’m used to it. This forum has a lot of things to be discuss. I can’t catch some of them because of their accurate response.

 

[Yoshua]

Supernatural? There is no supernatural. Nature exists within its own set of laws. Nothing exists in the physical world outside the laws of nature. This has been proven time and time again. The more educated people get, the more they reject claims of the supernatural. The miracles and healings attributed to Jesus was a common literary occurence at that time, especially in Greek culture. They were supposed to give validity as to the "supernature" or superiority of the hero in the story. The story of Apollonius of Tyana is an excellent example.

Hi Lasting light,

So what is your point here? Since they both (Jesus and Apollonius) cast out demons, heal the sick and raised the dead, do you compare them who was greater?

 

[JoStories]

Hi Jo,

Thanks. I’m used to it. This forum has a lot of things to be discuss. I can’t catch some of them because of their accurate response.

Being used to it in no way negates that it is wrong to do so. I try, very hard, to be kind to everyone. And yes, I see the rude members and the trolls we seem plagued by these last couple of weeks. I ignore them and still try to be kind. I just hope you can see that.

 

[JoStories]

Hi Lasting light,

So what is your point here? Since they both (Jesus and Apollonius) cast out demons, heal the sick and raised the dead, do you compare them who was greater?

But isn't the 'casting out of demons, or raising the dead" etc, considered a part of the occult? Of course it is. That was what I was trying to say about Christ. I don't believe it negates his message but I do believe that it shows that he was using occult practices.

 

[Yoshua]

Being used to it in no way negates that it is wrong to do so. I try, very hard, to be kind to everyone. And yes, I see the rude members and the trolls we seem plagued by these last couple of weeks. I ignore them and still try to be kind. I just hope you can see that.

Oh. Yes. That's true. Just continue to be kind to everyone. This forum is one way to reflect who are you, what you are, and who is your God representing. If somebody here is rude, it is not our loss but his loss.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

But isn't the 'casting out of demons, or raising the dead" etc, considered a part of the occult? Of course it is. That was what I was trying to say about Christ. I don't believe it negates his message but I do believe that it shows that he was using occult practices.

Yes, for non-christian. As I said before, the word "occult" means a lot of meaning and may caused misinterpretation.

Thanks

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Hi Lasting light,

So what is your point here? Since they both (Jesus and Apollonius) cast out demons, heal the sick and raised the dead, do you compare them who was greater?

Many people then were accredited with those same practices that Jesus performed. It was not unusual for its time.