I believe that you are wrong. What you call 'data' is arguably nothing more than the stories woven by apologists who never met the man and inferences made by those who took these creative writings as holy writ. You confuse faith and fact.
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Did Jesus preach with intent to start a new religion?
- Thread starter jeager106
- Start date
rosends
Well-Known Member
If I had to conjecture...well, not if I had to, I have conjectured in the past on this question simply because I like to, so if I choose to repeat old conjectures, I'd say that Jesus was trying to reformulate Judaism -- to change its stress from legalistic adherence to rite and ritual and focus more on a quasi spiritual notion of "doing good." He did this by presenting his own understanding of written and oral text, and supplementing with his own teachings which removed parts he didn't like and replaced them with his own reformulations. This was an attempt to give an accessible Judaism to those Jews who might have felt alienated by the existing Rabbinic system. So a "new religion"? Not exactly. A new and (in his mind) improved version of the existing religion.
rosends
Well-Known Member
To minimize the hijackiness of this, I would just refer you to a website which discusses this.In the spirit of the OP, I would like to hijack the threadand ask ...
... Do modern practitioners of Judiasm still expect a Messiah?
... What do they (you) expect him to do?
All About the Messiah
Jesus teaching eliminates buildings as place of worship. He expressed healing the sick by actions and not prayers. He was a pacifist. He believed Gods sovereign rule was appearing on Earth. He spoke against "special" bloodlines to rule over humanity and inside track to God. He taught that anyone could access God without mediums or religious people.
Jesus was an easy going guy who just wanted people to be well and not taken advantage of, like still happens around the world today.
Even if Jesus wasn't historical, the wisdom of the teaching is worth learning about.
I would categorize the words and actions of Jesus recorded in the Bible as more "non-violent activism" than "pacifism".
He frequently went out of his way to antagonize people.
His crucifixion, imho, was not the result of some simple misunderstanding about his peaceful message.
Matthew 23:13-39 (NIV)
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 14
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
... doesn't sound like traditional 'pacifism' to me.
YMMV
Domenic
Active Member
Gods laws God given to the people via Moses, was not a religion. It was how God wanted of his people be. later they made a religion of Gods laws, and added many of man made laws to that. When Jesus came, they had made the religion a money making business. Jesus went into the temple and ran them off. Religions today are doing the same as the Jews did then...making Gods laws a business, mixed with mans laws...all for money. One preacher this past week asked the Congregation to give him the money to buy himself a million dollar Jet. No, Jesus never started a religion. He told people, "Believe in him, and God the Father would give the everlasting life." The only thing they had to do was believe he was the son of God.
Religions are all false, and not from God.;
Religions are all false, and not from God.;
You like to quote the writers of Matthew that never met or new any Jesus.
outhouse
Atheistically
Nope
Paul started nothing. Paul Joined up.
He hunted down members in the Diaspora, he hunted a movement already in progress that was already all over the Empire.
He joined a movement in progress, and tells us there were other teachers in the Diaspora as well as other written material.
Jesus failed as a Messiah in Israel in Judaism with his death. he did not meet the definition.
The Hellenistic Proselytes however found value in his mythology and theology that developed due to Jesus martyrdom. When Passover was over, they took the message back home with them all over the empire. Each year at Passover traditions were shared and the movement grew each year. Passover in the temple was the foundation to the growth of the early movement.
The movement existed in the Empire for the most part. And that is what we see, we see many centers that grew, many different origins of the movement growing separately and no single origin in Jerusalem.
outhouse
Atheistically
Provide sources for this. I don't know a credible scholar that follows this.
One there was no orthodox Judaism at this time. It was wide and diverse with many different sects that all had extremely different views on the religion.
Jesus by our best accounts taught Aramaic apocalyptic Judaism he learned from John. He stayed and taught in small poor Aramaic villages.
He had nothing to do with the gentile Hellenistic movement what so ever, as they would have been his enemies as the Hellenistic Jewish Proselytes, and Hellenist in Sepphoris were his oppressors, his enemy.
outhouse
Atheistically
But you have always chosen not to educate yourself on historical matters. Your to much of an apologist, you have to avoid credible historical studies, as they go against your faith.
outhouse
Atheistically
Then you need to study cultural/social anthropology, because what you state did not take place.
There were half a million people there at Passover with thousands of teachers. One could yell at the top of his lungs and not be noticed for what one taught. Judaism was wide and diverse and many teachings were vastly different.
Now actions however, would get you noticed. And if they were actions perceived as one wanting to start a riot, you would find yourself crucified rather quickly. The night arrest was brilliant to keep the crowds from rising up against the Romans and temple guards.
There was a lot for ALL pious oppressed Jews to be steaming mad about during this period. The best we can say is that he caused some kind of trouble and that is why he was crucified.
outhouse
Atheistically
How so? Your explanation needs credible sources, because there are very few credible scholars that take that position.
What system might that have been?
One in the Pharisees? the Zealots? the Sadducees? the Essenes ? Hellenistic Jews? Gate Keepers? Righteous proselyte? God fearers?
In which of the different cultures that made up Judaism in the first century would you even be talking about?
outhouse
Atheistically
That is a decent answer.
It is hard to say.
So we go with what we know. he was an Aramaic Galilean apocalyptic teacher who took over Johns Judaism. He taught in small poor Aramaic Jewish villages by our best accounts.
Had the gospels had him teaching in Sepphoris and Tiberius then I would agree he was reaching out to Hellenistic Proselytes. But we see the opposite.
outhouse
Atheistically
Again, your bias always shows on some topics.
Going by what we know. He followed typical Aramaic Galilean apocalyptic Judaism which included baptism.
Hellenist far removed from his life did write the books about him, but that does not mean they are devoid of historicity in is life.
We have a view from the anti Semitic authors who should have been thrilled of having him teaching in large Hellenistic cities, but they do not report that.
Instead we see him teaching in poor Aramaic villages. This is telling.
Just because we cannot say with certainty does not mean there are not different degrees of plausibility here.
I thought that Matthew was the Gospel with text fragments surviving from the first century.
I chose it because it came up first on the computer text search.
Where do you suggest that I quote from to find someone who "really knew Jesus"?
I can try to accommodate your preferences.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't. It is my uninformed and personal opinion. The source is my perception and reaction. I'm not claiming this as any sort of scholarly treatise, just my own speculation. It is worth what you paid for it.
Specific elements of Pharisaic Judaism (the emphasis on legalism) and a few others of the Sadducean system (an economic barrier). In his reformulation, Jesus endorses elements of each and negates others, picking and choosing aspects which made for a more palatable religious formula.
How can anyone have a conversation on what Jesus preached starting from a position that what Jesus said is unknowable?
You did notice the title of the topic didn't you?
outhouse
Atheistically
At least you admit it is unsubstantiated rhetoric.
More jewish hubris. Unsubstantiated rhetoric.
You have nothing to base that on except what Hellenist out of the Diaspora wrote and attributed to Jesus.