Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[1robin]

actually i don't have faith that i won't get into a car wreck...the probability of me getting into a wreck is pretty high.




there is no way of knowing...however as i said before the odds of me getting into a wreck are high, i'm not going to live in fear and let that fear deter me getting out of the house to meet my friends for happy hour...



being that i'm self employed...i don't intend on killing myself.
other than that, the point is no one ever knows what the guy sitting behind you at a movie theatre is thinking either.



your right i don't know, so?


good cause that was lame.
see what you fail to realize in such a profound way is, i know this is my only shot at living, so maybe i don't take the here and now for granted as much as one who has faith in the hereafter may...


seems like you use fear and faith interchangeably ...

how sad for you.

Make it stop.

 

[sojourner]

but isn't that from the persons POV?

god is everywhere, i'm not talking linearly in time but ...on all levels...whenever we arrive or he's not there when we arrive...
therefore it is impossible to turn away from god
but if he isn't everywhere on all levels at the same time waiting for our arrival it is possible

it's one or the other.

Well, I'd have to ask, "From what other perspective can we have access to God?" We can either choose to recognize God or not. It is in the lack of recognition that we can be said to "turn from God." It is in God's immanence in the natural order that it can be said that we cannot hide from God.
One level is our self-centered focus. Another level is our ability to step outside that focus.

 

[waitasec]

Well, I'd have to ask, "From what other perspective can we have access to God?" We can either choose to recognize God or not.

if we can choose to not recognize him then god is limited and isn't everywhere at all levels in our existence.

 

[Thief]

if we can choose to not recognize him then god is limited and isn't everywhere at all levels in our existence.

This last effort displays your real intent and technique....

That YOU are not able to recognize God makes Him weak?

 

[sojourner]

if we can choose to not recognize him then god is limited and isn't everywhere at all levels in our existence.

Maybe on one level. On the other hand, even the ability to intentionally not recognize God comes from God.

Our minds are our own, however, and it takes a considerable amount of work to "get out of one's own way" many times.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe on one level. On the other hand, even the ability to intentionally not recognize God comes from God.

Our minds are our own, however, and it takes a considerable amount of work to "get out of one's own way" many times.

well then even if it's one level, that means god is not necessarily in our minds, therefore he isn't everywhere and quite limited.

why would our minds be the exception?

 

[waitasec]

This last effort displays your real intent and technique....

That YOU are not able to recognize God makes Him weak?

no it makes your god weak.


i recognize water as water can speak for itself...
your god cannot.

 

[Thief]

well then even if it's one level, that means god is not necessarily in our minds, therefore he isn't everywhere and quite limited.

why would our minds be the exception?

Consider your own limitations first.
Then this post from another thread moments ago....I quote myself...


A difficult argument to support...life after death....that's true....

But with 6billion+ copies of a physical form, designed to expose your mind and heart to this reality....
And then expect no one to step up from this life into the next?
No survivors?
All fail?

That I find hard to believe.

 

[waitasec]

Consider your own limitations first.
Then this post from another thread moments ago....I quote myself...


A difficult argument to support...life after death....that's true....

But with 6billion+ copies of a physical form, designed to expose your mind and heart to this reality....


And then expect no one to step up from this life into the next?
No survivors?
All fail?

That I find hard to believe.

if your god is limitless why can't your god meet me in my limited understanding?

a billion+ copies of a physical form can recognize water when they see it, or a tree or fire...
edit:
as their experience with such things were an empirical experience.

sorry your god fails as he is not experienced empirically.

 

[sojourner]

if we can choose to not recognize him then god is limited and isn't everywhere at all levels in our existence.

From one perspective. There are others.

 

[sojourner]

well then even if it's one level, that means god is not necessarily in our minds, therefore he isn't everywhere and quite limited.

why would our minds be the exception?

The question isn't whether God is in our minds. The question is whether we are in the mind of God.

 

[waitasec]

The question isn't whether God is in our minds. The question is whether we are in the mind of God.

wait, does that mean god is limited within his own mind?

 

[1robin]

if your god is limitless why can't your god meet me in my limited understanding?

Since you are almost making a point and are trying so hard I will address this issue even though I will surely regret it. He could make you believe like he did Paul (someone more opposed to him than you) but he has chosen to give you freewill. God said he would not contend with man forever. He might just be conteding with you right now. He only offers you the information given by revelation. You may reject it if you wish. He will allow you to refuse him and will not contend with you indefinately if you so chose, That will inevitably end up with you getting exactly what you wanted. Eternal seperation from him.

a billion+ copies of a physical form can recognize water when they see it, or a tree or fire...

I don't get this.

sorry your god fails.

If you see him after death can you honestly say he didn't make his revelation available and you didn't absolutely refuse to believe. Actually I imagine you will respond by asking him a question. He probably won't be at that time as bored and patient as we are now.

 

[waitasec]

From one perspective. There are others.

i am only capable of having one perspective at a time.

 

[waitasec]

Since you are almost making a point and are trying so hard I will address this issue even though I will surely regret it. He could make you believe like he did Paul (someone more opposed to him than you) but he has chosen to give you freewill. God said he would not contend with man forever. He might just be conteding with you right now. He only offers you the information given by revelation. You may reject it if you wish. He will allow you to refuse him and will not contend with you indefinately if you so chose, That will inevitably end up with you getting exactly what you wanted. Eternal seperation from him.

and why hasn't he? i believe water exists because i empirically experienced it. your god is not empirically experienced therefore your god is not capable of speaking for itself as water can.

I don't get this.

ask thief..

If you see him after death can you honestly say he didn't make his revelation available and you didn't absolutely refuse to believe. Actually I imagine you will respond by asking him a question. He probably won't be at that time as bored and patient as we are now.

what is this?
a lot of nothing. that says nothing.

 

[1robin]

and why hasn't he? i believe water exists because i empirically experienced it. your god is not empirically experienced therefore your god is not capable of speaking for itself as water can.

He said he loves you so much he would not do that. True love only exists within freewill. Regardless it is consistent with revelation whether you like it or agree with it. If you actually want to know why, you can actually read and try to understand his book. If all you want to do is ask endles questions as a form of protest, well that doesn't work to well with an infinate intellect, just ask Job. He tried it and God turned the questions on him and Job to his credit realised his insuffeciency to question God.

what is this?
a lot of nothing. that says nothing.

It is perfectly consistent with revelation and so a great likelyhood. It points out how inadequite and useless your questions will be at that time and how if the bible is true you will be utterly without excuse.

 

[waitasec]

He said he loves you so much he would not do that. True love only exists within freewill.

ultimatums are not tools of free will but tools for control...

 

[1robin]

ultimatums are not tools of free will but tools for control...

Do you have a rolladex of inaccurate counterpoints to use to protect your confort zone. There is no ultimatum. You get a life to decide whether you want to live with God or not. In the end you get what you chose. Eternal life with God and everything gained by that or eternal life seperated from him and everything lost by that decision.

 

[waitasec]

Do you have a rolladex of inaccurate counterpoints to use to protect your confort zone. There is no ultimatum. You get a life to decide whether you want to live with God or not. In the end you get what you chose. Eternal life with God and everything gained by that or eternal life seperated from him and everything lost by that decision.

that is the ultimatum

 

[1robin]

that is the ultimatum

Even if it is then it is not an unjust one. He gives you what you want. I need to clarify something that I didn't have a reason to say earlier. His gift of freewill is only given for a period of time. He decides when that arrangement is to be terminated, and then he gives you what you chose. I do not know if freewill exists for the ones who do not chose him. I will guess yes but in a limited form. The only life you have to answer for is yours. You spend all your time desperately looking for a problem with God. When your time is up how could you hope that you could live forever in the presence of a God who loved you and you rejected over and over. I don't say any of this to be hurtful. I do it because I know it is true even though my experience does not suffice as proof for anyone else. I actually care about people and so talk to anyone that will listen and explain that nomatter what kind of philosophy or scientific counterclaim anyone uses it will be of no use at the judgement. I honestly and truly believe it. I at one time hated the idea of Christianity and understand all the reluctance to faith and the arguments against it. Since I have been on both sides I have an understanding you have no access to. If you were not so rabidly biased against it you might just discover a pearl of infinate value. However I am expecting your next inaccurate counter QUESTION. Make it a good one I have about had it.