Shermana
Heretic
17:22
17:23
They wanted to kill him for saying "i existed before abraham" and calling himself the "son of god" therefore in their mind, equating himself with God. Equating is different than "being"
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Did Jesus say he was God???
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17:22
American Patriot
Member
No, just anything or anyone that contradicts the scriptures I believe the bible..
Rom 3:4
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Psa 12:6-7
(6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
See, they may not be in any Known manuscripts to you but they are forever settled in heaven!
Psa 119:89
(89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Also we need proof that in John it was meant to say "god" instead of God!
Because Isaiah seems to think different.
Isa 9:6
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah Called Jesus Christ the Might God the everlasting Father!
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Col 1:20-22
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
When taking a look at Jude and Colossians we can conclude that Jude was talking about Jesus Christ. Therefor Jude says "to the ONLY WISE GOD", If God the Father is not Jesus Christ then you would be saying that God the Father is not wise! Is this true? No! Jesus is the everlasting Father.
American Patriot
Member
Col 2:9-10
(9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
(10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Jesus as God the Father had all power. But if you say that Jesus is only the Son of God then you must agree that the son of God was ahead of God the Father in power.. Which would be a serious contradiction to scripture..
American Patriot
Member
I believe this is false but because although you might be able to say Jesus was saying Me and the Father are one in purpose in John 10 you cant say that in John 14..
Joh 14:6-11
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Shermana
Heretic
Just for now, I'll address Isaiah 9:6 Why does your translation say THE Mighty god? Where is the article "Ha"? None? It's an interpolation. Hmmm...anyone can now add a "The" when they feel like it?
Immanuel = a god with us, just as "El gibbor" = a mighty god.
Again Angels are called gods. Including fallen ones.
Colossians 1:15 is interesting "Firstborn" (or "First/Prototype") of all Creation
Shermana
Heretic
Also, the word "The godhead" isn't really a Nominative as much as it as a Qualitative noun. It means "Divinity" or "Deity" but not in the sense of "The deity" but as in "Qualities of deity", the word is Olde English for "Godhood",it is not an entity, it is a quality.
The Christ as King IS the appointed head of all principality and power, King of kings, under the Command of God. But even then, read the whole passage in context.
So Jesus says very succinctly, that He is God, when He says I am the First and the Last. Rev 2:8
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
To affirm that He must be God Isa 44:6
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
So if this is not Him here, and yet He states He is the First and the Last in Rev 2:8, then He lied.
So, where do we ever have Jesus saying I am not God, I am not the First and the Last ? He knew many would read the OT scriptures and see the ramifications of making such a claim, why did He not clarify it and deny it if was not True as it stood ?
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
To affirm that He must be God Isa 44:6
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
So if this is not Him here, and yet He states He is the First and the Last in Rev 2:8, then He lied.
So, where do we ever have Jesus saying I am not God, I am not the First and the Last ? He knew many would read the OT scriptures and see the ramifications of making such a claim, why did He not clarify it and deny it if was not True as it stood ?
ApostolicPeter
Member
To my knowledge, no translations add "a" to John 1:1 except one: the worthless and perverted NWT of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The KJV got it right.
You are so wrapped up in your Hebrew that you overlook the simple and obvious truths in the text as its written.
When Jesus said He had power on earth to forgive sins, not Jesus, not the Jews present nor the disciples recording the incident believed that ANY gods had power to forgive sins, only the TRUE God of Israel. Everybody but you seems to understand clearly His claim. He was claiming to be the ONE who has power to forgive sins and for this the Jews wanted to stone Him. Otherwise show me scripture where other gods forgave the Jews of their sins.
Luke 5:21
(21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Are we to assume that the Jewish religious leaders of that day believed the gods had power to cleanse them???
Psa_32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Why didn't David appeal to the gods if what you're saying is true?
BTW, His name does not mean God saves, it means Yahweh is Saviour. There is NO saviour besides Yahweh (Hos 13:4.) Yahweh was Saviour when He dwelt in the human flesh of Jesus. It was the Father that dwelt in Jesus (Jn 14:10). In 1 Tim 3:16 we see that GOD preached unto the gentiles. When did God preach unto the Gentiles? In Rev 7:21 Jesus claims to be GOD. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and He is the head of ALL principality and power because in Him dwells all the fullness of deity bodily. (Col 1:15, 2:9-10.)
2 Corinthians 5:19
(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Which God was in Christ?
Ephesians 4:6
(6) (there is) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Jesus Christ is ONLY God of the Bible.
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Shermana
All you say is pefectly logical and OK with me, since at one level the embodied is not equal to the infinite.
Yet, it is not clear why Jesus would say "I and my father are same".
It is not clear how "Ye be perfect as Father in heaven is".
And it is not clear how "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one'
If you feel that you perfectly understand these then kindly let it go. I have no more to say.
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Shermana
Heretic
When you say "Kindly let it go" what are you trying to say, don't express my opinion on the issue if I think it's the right interpretation? As I said, "Let them be one as we are one" means "Let them become part of the Divine purpose".
Also, what interpretation are you using where it says "I and the Father are the Same", that's a major difference than "one". Is that from a non-English translation? If so, an interesting insight into how the Trinitarians will change the Greek to suit their agenda when translating.
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Shermana
Heretic
[/QUOTE]
The "a god"translation is in an 1824 translation, as well as various others besides the JW. The Syriac uses the word "Eloah"for "a god was the word", and "Elohim"for when it says "And the word was with God". Why would it use "Eloah" in the singular?
You can call the JW bible "Worthless and perverted" if you like, I call many translations "worthless and perverted", but some have good uses like the NLT calls Satan "the god of this world", proving that fallen angels can be called gods.Is the Syriac Pe****ta perverted and worthless?
Yashua gave the power to forgive sins to the Disciples, so were they now God too?
PS Ephesians is not by Paul, its bunk. It's been considered bunk by almost all scholars for years. You are welcome to believe the Catholic Canon is inspired though.
Please prove that "Yashua" means "Yah is saviour" instead of "Yah saves".
I don't understand why you would ask why David would appeal to the Gods, we are Henotheistic, why would we pray to any god except God?
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Shermana
Heretic
Now this Revelation 7:21 thing where you claim that Jesus claims to be God, can you please cite this verse, it must have fallen out of every Bible translation because chapter 7 only has 17 verses. You can't use imaginary verses. I can only wonder why you chose to quote other verses but not this one.
No. You, as evryone else, are free to express your view and to me you are welcome. I meant that if you emphatically believe that you know exactly what Jesus meant in those cited statements, then I have nothing to say.
My mistake. I apologise.
My understanding of "I and my father are one" and "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one' gels with what Sanatana Dharma teaches. I have reason to believe that the WORD is indivisible one.
ApostolicPeter
Member
I don’t know. Why would the Syriac exclude the inspired writings of Peter and John? The Greek uses theos in both which I am convinced is correct.
See my answer above.
Yes I do believe Ephesians belongs in the inspired canon. And you are welcome to believe the whole Catholic religion if you want to. You’re even welcome to go to confession and confess your sins to a priest if you believe they have that authority. Show me where the disciples said, “Your sins are forgiven thee.” And answer if you can, why Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” when He Himself had the power to forgive them.
Matthew 1:21
(21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Yah is the only savior allowed by God (Hos 13:4, Is 43:11) There can be *** NO *** other saviors. He (Yah Savior) will save HIS people from their sins.
If you believe that Jesus is NOT GOD, then your savior is an imposter. Whereas I believe the Bible, that there is NO savior besides God. Therefore, as God will save His people from their sins, and since He is the only one doing the saving, Yah is Saviour. How do you arrive at “Yah saves” when Yah is not saving, but rather watching someone else save who is not allowed to save?
You may be Henotheistic but David certainly was not. David was monotheistic like myself. The fact that you are Henotheistic certainly opens the door to that possibility (apealing to the gods.) A monotheistic like myself would never be suspect as such. JW's (who are into this "gods" stuff) used to worship Jesus, until they changed their position. I don't think they know what their relationship to the G/gods is.
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ApostolicPeter
Member
21:7, my bad.
That makes sense but at some point the lamb I thought joins god on the throne. As chapter 22 says "the throne of god and of the lamb" so there is some ambiguity there. You are absolutely correct that the whole book keeps them seperate as I additionally noted with the throne. That would exactly mean that if it says "i am god" then it isn't the lamb speaking.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Which means the Lamb is not the source.
ApostolicPeter
Member
It's the same light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(John 1:9)
Because it's the same God.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(John 1:10-11)
ApostolicPeter
Member
Not just any human, but the flesh in which God the Father dwelt, and there isn't even any controversy about it:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *** God was manifest in the flesh ***, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16)
To wit, that *** God was in Christ ***, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:19)
Which God was in Christ? Let's ask Jesus.
*** but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. ***.
(John 14:10b)
And since you bring up Isaiah, let's ask him too:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The *** mighty God, The everlasting Father ***, The Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)
The body is the tabernacle and the image of God.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Colossians 2:9-10)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
(Colossians 1:15-19)