Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
In other words I have responded already.....
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
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In other words I have responded already.....
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I've answered already. The context of chapter 8 shows Yeshua has a god that taught him and sent him and the Jews were ticked because he disrespected their patriarch by declaring his existence before Abraham. In lieu of context you've given no viable reason why 8:58 can't be rendered the way some bible scholars have translated it. When Yeshua uses (ego eimi) earlier in chapter 8 a few times no one made the assumption he was declaring to be "God".
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To which of these do you think that you replied?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2656687-post5061.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2656723-post5064.html
Sorry, that's useless.
No answer to my question still...
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And yet you haven't shown it to be otherwise....
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I've already given you the reference to the question ("like?") in this post. And the second question in the post was a question to my question. Subsequently, I answered it anyway.
Right, this was concerning blasphemy and your question was answered here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2656717-post5063.html
No, you didn't answer my question, you couldn't. That's just changing the subject.
Again, what has this got to do with the question?!
Then don't claim to have replied to the "I AM".
You can't reply to the simple question, can you?
Here are some, but I have many others:
Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament:
[FONT="]Before Abraham was[/FONT][FONT="] ([/FONT]πρινἈβρααμγενεσθαι[FONT="] [prin Abraam genesthai]). Usual idiom with [/FONT]πριν[FONT="] [prin] in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of [/FONT]γινομαι[FONT="] [ginomai]) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.” I am ([/FONT]ἐγωεἰμι[FONT="] [egō eimi]). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT="] [genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT="] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT="] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT="] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT="] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]Bernard, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Gospel according to St. John :
πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="], i.e. “before Abraham came into being, I AM.” The contrast between the verbs [/FONT]γίγνεσθαι[FONT="] and [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT="] is as unmistakable as it is in Ps. 90:2, [/FONT]πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι[FONT="] … [/FONT]ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ[FONT="], “before the mountains came into being … from age to age THOU ART.” Of God it could not be said that He “came into being” or “became,” for He IS. Cf. 1:18 and Col. 1:17 for this absolute use of [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT="]; see also on 1:1. It has been pointed out already that [/FONT]ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT="]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT="], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets. A similar use of the phrase is found at 13:19. It is clear that Jn. means to represent Jesus as thus claiming for Himself the timeless being of Deity, as distinct from the temporal existence of man. This is the teaching of the Prologue to the Gospel about Jesus (1:1, 18); but here (and at 13:19) Jesus Himself is reported as having said I (am) He, which is a definite assertion of His Godhead, and was so understood by the Jews. They had listened to His argument up to this point; but they could bear with it no longer. These words of mystery were rank blasphemy (see 10:33), and they proceeded to stone Him.[/FONT]
Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament:
[FONT="]Before Abraham was[/FONT][FONT="] ([/FONT]πρινἈβρααμγενεσθαι[FONT="] [prin Abraam genesthai]). Usual idiom with [/FONT]πριν[FONT="] [prin] in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of [/FONT]γινομαι[FONT="] [ginomai]) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.” I am ([/FONT]ἐγωεἰμι[FONT="] [egō eimi]). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT="] [genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT="] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT="] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT="] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT="] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]Bernard, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Gospel according to St. John :
πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="], i.e. “before Abraham came into being, I AM.” The contrast between the verbs [/FONT]γίγνεσθαι[FONT="] and [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT="] is as unmistakable as it is in Ps. 90:2, [/FONT]πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι[FONT="] … [/FONT]ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ[FONT="], “before the mountains came into being … from age to age THOU ART.” Of God it could not be said that He “came into being” or “became,” for He IS. Cf. 1:18 and Col. 1:17 for this absolute use of [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT="]; see also on 1:1. It has been pointed out already that [/FONT]ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT="]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT="], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets. A similar use of the phrase is found at 13:19. It is clear that Jn. means to represent Jesus as thus claiming for Himself the timeless being of Deity, as distinct from the temporal existence of man. This is the teaching of the Prologue to the Gospel about Jesus (1:1, 18); but here (and at 13:19) Jesus Himself is reported as having said I (am) He, which is a definite assertion of His Godhead, and was so understood by the Jews. They had listened to His argument up to this point; but they could bear with it no longer. These words of mystery were rank blasphemy (see 10:33), and they proceeded to stone Him.[/FONT]
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
At least one of the references was chapter 8. I'm sure in chapter 10 he tries to clarify his position as well.
Your question was.....
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2656723-post5064.html
I asked
"How else is Yeshua the ("son of God") if not in the physical sense? "
You never answered but your reply was in the form of a question....
You answered my question with a question but You don't believe the son is the father do you? You don't believe the father or the son is the holy spirit do you? You don't believe the father is the son or that the holy spirit is the son do you? This is why I asked the question giving you an opportunity to respond.
Sorry, irrelevant to the question.
And your reply had nothing to do whatsoever with my question.
Is it possible you have no idea what you are talking about?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Wonderful. But I think they've failed to take the context of the situation into consideration.
John 8:53
Are you greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: who makes you thyself?
Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom you say, that he is your god yet you have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (was, exist) -emphasis mine.
Yeshua had already established in chapter 8 he has a god so they were not trying to kill him because there was some claim he was "God" (see 8:37). The ultimate insult to their pride was that he said he existed before Abraham. This is why they sought to throw rocks at him. It's self evident they wanted to kill him before the statement considering he was calling then children of the devil.
The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 by Kenneth Mckay.
"The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi, which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction."
John 8:58 by Dr Jason BeDuhn:
"John 8:58. The traditional translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is slavishly faithful to the literal meaning of the Greek ("Before Abraham came to be, I am"). The result is ungrammatical English. We cannot mix our tenses in such a way. The reason for this ugly rendering is the accident that, in English, the idiomatic "I am" sounds what God says about himself in the Hebrew/Old Testament. This is sheer coincidence. Jesus is not employing a divine title here. He is merely claiming that he existed before Abraham and, of course, he still exists whereas Abraham is dead. There is nothing wrong with the Greek, but we need to take account of the Greek idiom being employed and render the meaning into proper English. The NWT moves a step closer, but doesn't quite get there, because it still sounds awkward. But at least they were trying to convey exactly what the Greek idiom means. It's not that easy to come up with a phrase that works.
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No, they haven't.
It suits perfectly.
Where?
And why would you translate a verb in present into past tense?
Can you point out a single occurrence of ego eimi translated as "I was" or "I have been"?
That's useless. He didn't even discuss anything about its Greek. If you understood my quotes, you wouldn't have posted that.
I think you mentioned the same thing before in this thread and I replied to you.
future-present tense !
γενέσθαι is infinitive.
outhouse
Atheistically
Nope I have a firm grasp on the subject at hand and most important, a open mind to take my education further on the subject. :yes: