Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

future-present tense !

γενέσθαι is infinitive.

Oh, well then, here you go: Greek Concordance: ???????? (genesthai) -- 36 Occurrences

Find a single example that's in past tense, or immediate present. You have Luke 9:36 I suppose, but it looks strangely like the case in John 8:58 where the context is given as past tense with an indicator right after.

 

[Mark2020]

Nope I have a firm grasp on the subject at hand and most important, a open mind to take my education further on the subject. :yes:

Do you always reply to the wrong questions?
I am referring to the context, not the subject.

 

[Mark2020]

Oh, well then, here you go: Greek Concordance: ???????? (genesthai) -- 36 Occurrences

Find a single example that's in past tense, or immediate present. You have Luke 9:36 I suppose.

Seriously, you need to either take Greek classes or stop discussing Greek!

What is it preceded with in these examples?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No, they haven't.
It suits perfectly.

The context to me is describing Yeshua's pre-existence. That's what ticked them off. It appears they held Abraham, just as Muslims do, in high regards. To say he existed before Abraham would have been seen as disrespectful.

Where?

John 8:40, 8:42 and 8:54.

And why would you translate a verb in present into past tense?
Can you point out a single occurrence of ego eimi translated as "I was" or "I have been"?

Sorry for the re-post (Greek Concordance: ???????? (genesthai) -- 36 Occurrences) but Shermana beat me to it.

The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry says that there are times when the present tense in Greek can be translated into the English perfect tense:
"Does the Bible ever legitimately translate the present tense 'ego eimi' into the English perfect tense "I have been."? Yes it does. In John 14:8-9 it says, "Philip said to Him, 'Lord show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' 9Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father?'" Where Jesus says, "I have been" is in the Greek present tense, 'ego eimi'. Literally, again, this is "I am." Here we have an example of the present being translated into the perfect tense. If we did not do this, then the English would say this in response to Philip's request for Jesus to show them the Father, "I am with you so long...." That is awkward in the English, so translators translate it as "Have I been so long with you...." It is legitimate to do this in some instances where it is warranted.

Other renderings;


[FONT=&quot]Sinaitic Palimpsest[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Before Abraham was,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I have been[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Curetonian Version[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]"Before ever Abraham came to be,[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Pe****ta Version[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]"Before Abraham existed,[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

Much thanks for pointing out John 14:9, never realized that one until now.

 

[Mark2020]

The context to me is describing Yeshua's pre-existence. That's what ticked them off. It appears they held Abraham, just as Muslims do, in high regards. To say he existed before Abraham would have been seen as disrespectful.

Irrelevant. No contradiction.

John 8:40, 8:42 and 8:54.

They don't say He has "a god"

Sorry for the re-post (Greek Concordance: ???????? (genesthai) -- 36 Occurrences) but Shermana beat me to it.

It's infinitive dude. Don't trust him that much.
εἰμί , on the other hand, is present.

The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry says that there are times when the present tense in Greek can be translated into the English perfect tense:

I asked for "ego eimi"

Other renderings;

Irrelevant. I can get tens with "I AM"

 

[waitasec]

useless
:sarcastic

 

[outhouse]

useless
:sarcastic

+1

 

[Mark2020]

useless
:sarcastic

+1

Thank you both for your useful contributions

 

[Shermana]

They don't say He has "a god"

I guess when Jesus called the Father "my god" he was lying then?

 

[Mark2020]

I guess when Jesus called the Father "my god" he was lying then?

So you too can't read the context?
He claimed it was in John 8.

 

[Shermana]

Why don't you explain the context of Jesus calling the Father "my god" then for us all.

 

[Mark2020]

Why don't you explain the context of Jesus calling the Father "my god" then for us all.

Trying to change the subject?
I've already discussed this in this thread.
We can discuss it again if you want but after finishing this point.

 

[Shermana]

So you say I'm not getting the context in reply to something you said, and when I ask you to clarify, you accuse me of changing the subject. Nice.

Let me clarify, you said that the "I am" statements in chapter 8 have something to do with him not saying he has a god. How is that even relevant?

 

[Mark2020]

So you say I'm not getting the context in reply to something you said, and when I ask you to clarify, you accuse me of changing the subject. Nice.

I misunderstood your previous post, I thought you meant the context of "my god" elsewhere.
What I was referring to is the context of my discussion with Penguin, ie John 8, as I said in a previous post.

Let me clarify, you said that the "I am" statements in chapter 8 have something to do with him not saying he has a god. How is that even relevant?

No, I didn't say so.
I said there is no "my god" in John 8, as he claimed.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

John 8:58-59 NIV

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I'm still curious as to why they picked up stones to stone Jesus?

Oh yes...

John 10:31-33 NIV

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

See, even the Jewish opponents thought Jesus was calling himself God.

Wait...it gets better.
John 10:34 NIV

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’

 

[Mark2020]

And so far, you haven't addressed these:

Here are some, but I have many others:

Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament:
[FONT=&quot]Before Abraham was[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]πρινἈβρααμγενεσθαι[FONT=&quot] [prin Abraam genesthai]). Usual idiom with [/FONT]πριν[FONT=&quot] [prin] in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of [/FONT]γινομαι[FONT=&quot] [ginomai]) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.” I am ([/FONT]ἐγωεἰμι[FONT=&quot] [egō eimi]). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT=&quot] [genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot] [eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT=&quot] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT=&quot] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT=&quot] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT=&quot] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Bernard, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Gospel according to St. John :
πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT=&quot], i.e. “before Abraham came into being, I AM.” The contrast between the verbs [/FONT]γίγνεσθαι[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT=&quot] is as unmistakable as it is in Ps. 90:2, [/FONT]πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι[FONT=&quot] … [/FONT]ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ[FONT=&quot], “before the mountains came into being … from age to age THOU ART.” Of God it could not be said that He “came into being” or “became,” for He IS. Cf. 1:18 and Col. 1:17 for this absolute use of [/FONT]εἶναι[FONT=&quot]; see also on 1:1. It has been pointed out already that [/FONT]ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT=&quot] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT=&quot]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT=&quot], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets. A similar use of the phrase is found at 13:19. It is clear that Jn. means to represent Jesus as thus claiming for Himself the timeless being of Deity, as distinct from the temporal existence of man. This is the teaching of the Prologue to the Gospel about Jesus (1:1, 18); but here (and at 13:19) Jesus Himself is reported as having said I (am) He, which is a definite assertion of His Godhead, and was so understood by the Jews. They had listened to His argument up to this point; but they could bear with it no longer. These words of mystery were rank blasphemy (see 10:33), and they proceeded to stone Him.[/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

Once again, John 10:33 has an Anathrous Theon, so it should be "makest thyself to be a god".

Otherwise, his response in 10:34 makes no sense unless you think he was totally changing the subject.

If you disagree, take it up with Acts 12:22 "voice of a god".

 

[Mark2020]

Once again, John 10:33 has an Anathrous Theon, so it should be "makest thyself to be a god".

Otherwise, his response in 10:34 makes no sense unless you think he was totally changing the subject.

If you disagree, take it up with Acts 12:22 "voice of a god".

hahaha
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/121296-john-1-1-anarthrous-theos-big.html

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Irrelevant. No contradiction.

Nice. So you have no idea what the context is?

They don't say He has "a god"

Funny because I (NEVER) said it did. What I said was.....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2659035-post5174.html
"Yeshua had already established in chapter 8 he has a god"

John 8:54 (in part)
...."it is my Father that honors me; of whom you say, that he is your god"

Contrast that statement with....

John 20:17 (in part)
...."my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god."

I asked for "ego eimi"

Yep, that's why I posted....

The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry says that there are times when the present tense in Greek can be translated into the English perfect tense:
"Does the Bible ever legitimately translate the present tense 'ego eimi' into the English perfect tense "I have been."? Yes it does. In John 14:8-9 it says, "Philip said to Him, 'Lord show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' 9Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father?'" Where Jesus says, "I have been" is in the Greek present tense, 'ego eimi'. Literally, again, this is "I am." Here we have an example of the present being translated into the perfect tense. If we did not do this, then the English would say this in response to Philip's request for Jesus to show them the Father, "I am with you so long...." That is awkward in the English, so translators translate it as "Have I been so long with you...." It is legitimate to do this in some instances where it is warranted.

Irrelevant. I can get tens with "I AM"

Irrelevant. I can find others to the contrary but I think these will still suffice.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Pe****ta Version[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]"Before Abraham existed,[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sinaitic Palimpsest[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Before Abraham was,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I have been[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Curetonian Version[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]"Before ever Abraham came to be,[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[/FONT]