Did Jesus say he was God???

[icebuddy]

Wow,there's a lot to cover here.
#1 Jesus is my Shepherd.True Christians are his flock.Jehovah is our God.

I agree, your posts have allot too. Thats why I took some time away from posting and went to Wisconsin for the summer. What about passages in the OT that say Jehovah is our Shepherd?

#2 When Gods angel was leading the Israelites as a cloud by day and fire by night,it was Michael the Archangel who later becomes Jesus Christ in the flesh.The same angel who is mentioned in Jude 9:1 and Daniel 12:1.The great prince.

I dont agree with that thought... The Father says that no angel will ever rule heavens kingdom and that he did not say to any angel that today you are my son... In Jude 9 Micheal doesnt rebuke satan, but Jesus does (Matt4:10/16:33/mark8:33)
Micheal is one of many chief princes (Dan10:13), Jesus is unique and not one of many...

#3.You know its Jesus by reading the scriptures.Hebrew 1:10 -12 like you said.Now go to verse 13.It says,To which of the angels did God ever say,

So you believe the Father did say to 1 angel Micheal, "today you are my son'? Then the Angel Micheal became Jesus. Is that correct...?

#4 When Jehovah God states,
Who was with me?

He is not saying that Jesus was not with him.He is speaking of the gods of the people.

I disagree to a point. Jehovah says by himself he created. Many JW say Jesus is "a god" and Jehovah "The God" and then accuse a Trinitarian of multiple Gods. Yet this picture is saying God Created with smaller (demi) god(s)...

Jehovah is declaring He is the Almighty and only God.If you go back and read all of chapter 44 in its entirety it is clear and obvious.

i dont doubt Jehovah as the Only God. I just believe Gods Word and Wisdom are part of what makes God God.

6*This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies:
‘I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me.
*7*Who is there like me?
Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me!
From the time I established the people of long ago,
Let them tell both the things to come
And what will yet happen.

So here he is saying it like it is.He is the only true God and there is no one like Him.He goes on to prove how he knows the future and no one can tell it like He can.He not only tells the future but He gives us specific names as in this passage in Chapter 45

First off, who is the repurchaser? This Repurchaser is called Jehovah of Armies...
Second, Jesus is Exactly like the Father...

So you see Jehovah is just telling it like it is.There is no one who can do what He does.He does it alone.He is all powerful and the Almighty.

i agree

We know for sure that Jesus(Michael) was already with him when Jehovah created everything because it is mentioned in Proverbs 8:22-31.Jesus is speaking of being God.s first creation.Jesus also mentions being a master worker along side Jehovah God too.

I dont agree that Jesus is Micheal nor that Jesus was created. Do you really believe that Jehovah had to create his wisdom and that there was a time in which he did not posses wisdom? This all sounds odd to me... I do agree that Father God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all created together...

Also in Genesis 1:26 it says this,Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, It was Michael(Jesus) that Jehovah God was speaking to.

I believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Dont believe Jesus is Micheal...

#5 I believe it is God's holy spirit that has helped me obtain an accurate knowledge of the truth.I knew nothing until I begged God for a better understanding of His Word so I may better serve Him and others.

Thank you for your answers. You have been very clear on what you believe. I strongly assuming you are a Jehovahs Witness, is that correct...? Im a Quaker in belief. What do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

PS - These are my beliefs and I believe them to be True

 

[icebuddy]

Did the Jews judge god or a misguided Jewish rabbi? The fact the Jews are still around. One has to conclude it was the latter.

The Christian NT and most Christians still believe that God has a special place for the Jews. If you read the Jewish prophets, their messiah had to have shown up around that time frame.

Bible Prophecy Fulfilled by Christ Jesus | CBN.com

The Link above shows what Jesus fulfilled

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus was in spirit form before Abraham was alive on earth.When Jesus came in the flesh, as the Son of God,he became lower than the angels by becoming human.

Im hoping my friend Jensen is looking at this post. Jensen, do you see how in "BBS" belief that Jesus lowered himself lower than angels? In this belief can one say he was never an angel nor will be again? Could one say Angels are greater than Jesus? Does that mean he was never an angel in that belief? Just trying to show parallels that people dont think about....

 

[icebuddy]

That's because Jesus is not God.

I disagree with that statement. Jesus is Called God (Theos) and that statement can never be said in the Greek language.

(Jesus is not Theos) <--- Bad
(Jesus is Theos) <---- Good

 

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by Harikrish
Hebrew verse says Jesus was made lower than the angels and for his sacrifice he was glorified and honoured. It does not say he was made God.

harikrish,
Do you believe that only God created and that he alone created everything?

 

[Nada]

I agree, your posts have allot too. Thats why I took some time away from posting and went to Wisconsin for the summer. What about passages in the OT that say Jehovah is our Shepherd?

I dont agree with that thought... The Father says that no angel will ever rule heavens kingdom and that he did not say to any angel that today you are my son... In Jude 9 Micheal doesnt rebuke satan, but Jesus does (Matt4:10/16:33/mark8:33)
Micheal is one of many chief princes (Dan10:13), Jesus is unique and not one of many...

So you believe the Father did say to 1 angel Micheal, "today you are my son'? Then the Angel Micheal became Jesus. Is that correct...?

I disagree to a point. Jehovah says by himself he created. Many JW say Jesus is "a god" and Jehovah "The God" and then accuse a Trinitarian of multiple Gods. Yet this picture is saying God Created with smaller (demi) god(s)...

i dont doubt Jehovah as the Only God. I just believe Gods Word and Wisdom are part of what makes God God.

First off, who is the repurchaser? This Repurchaser is called Jehovah of Armies...
Second, Jesus is Exactly like the Father...

i agree

I dont agree that Jesus is Micheal nor that Jesus was created. Do you really believe that Jehovah had to create his wisdom and that there was a time in which he did not posses wisdom? This all sounds odd to me... I do agree that Father God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all created together...

I believe it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Dont believe Jesus is Micheal...

Thank you for your answers. You have been very clear on what you believe. I strongly assuming you are a Jehovahs Witness, is that correct...? Im a Quaker in belief. What do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

PS - These are my beliefs and I believe them to be True

#1 It also says men are Shepherds tof literal sheep, as was David, and symbolic ones, as in this passage.Acts 20:28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.

#2 Michael is the Archangel.When he came as Jesus in the flesh and accomplished his mission,he ascended back to heaven and received a name higher than anyone else under God.He inherited the Kingdom and became King now.

#3 Jesus was created.Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
This is telling us that Jesus was born first over all creation.Meaning out of everything created,Jesus was first.Its very clear.

#4There is not Trinity.There is God and Jesus.The holy spirit is God's active force.When Jesus says "I and the Father are one" ,it never mentions the holy spirit.In John 17:21 it says that God, Jesus, and the people are all in each other.So you think that they are all literally in each other? No....It speaks of a spiritual union.If it were to be taken literally,then, all would be part of the Trinity.Notice it never mentions the holy spirit here either.

#5 I am not JW,yet.I have to become baptized in order to become one.

#6The holy spirit is God's active force and not a person like many believe.

 

[icebuddy]

John like Peter were fishermen and therefore illiterate. That makes it unlikely John was the author of the Gospel of John. The people were surprised Jesus surrounded himself with ignorant illeterates.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

The Thomas incident is only found in John. None of the three other Gispels mention the Thomas incident even though Jesus appeared before all tbe disciples.

John's gospel was the last gospel to be written. It differs substantially from the other gospels and Jesus is made a deity in John suggesting Jesus after the crucifixion was gradually exalted to a deity by later Christians and John's gospel reflects those changing doctrines.

What Religion are you? im Quaker... Anyways I disagree with some things you say...

What do you think Paul was trying to say at 1 Cor 10:1-4 ?

Also Read Isaiah 44:6-8

 

[Nada]

Im hoping my friend Jensen is looking at this post. Jensen, do you see how in "BBS" belief that Jesus lowered himself lower than angels? In this belief can one say he was never an angel nor will be again? Could one say Angels are greater than Jesus? Does that mean he was never an angel in that belief? Just trying to show parallels that people dont think about....

Why don't you send him a message and tell him to look?

 

[Nada]

I disagree with that statement. Jesus is Called God (Theos) and that statement can never be said in the Greek language.

(Jesus is not Theos) <--- Bad
(Jesus is Theos) <---- Good

Well to disagree with that is to disagree with God's Word.By the way,it says it in Hebrew first.Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[PeaceSeeker]

Jesus remained faithful to his principles of peace and love, bravely defying those who attempted to crown him as the “King of the Jews” and to lead the fight against their opposition, represented the epitome of what it means to lead a righteous life, thereby being a child of God; he was in a true sense, the “Son of God”.

Until Jesus’ baptism by John at about the age of 30 he had been an obscure carpenter from Galilee. But the baptism marked the turning point in his life - he began to believe he could be the Messiah and he now had a mission.

Will they who believe that Jesus was a prophet rather than the only son of God be condemned ? Are we not, as according to the bible, children of God, therefore as children, we are also a son or a daughter of God.

If Jesus were born now would people believe that he was God ?

Jesus has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". We are often reminded of the teachings of Jesus whose words have survived two millennia. His disciples kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. They, as well as other "Men of God" who contributed to the compilation of the scriptures of the Bible, were inspired by God to give us guidelines to live by.

 

[Jensen]

I will reply to your messages to me eventually Tom, for now not in a hurry. But you can answer this for me....what is "BBS" belief?

 

[Jensen]

Do you think we should be putting our Trust into other gods? i ask this because i do put my trust in Jesus and many reduce him to a god here as a demi-god or Something more than a man but less than "the God". It seems to me that the term "god" has been watered down to the point of meaning anything... However, the Jews of Jesus's time knew the language and all said he was claiming "Equality to God" or Claiming to be God... To say Jesus who is the Image of God is expressing 'a god" lesser than "The God" sounds odd to me...? Does your Jesus who is the image of God exactly express the Father or does he fall short? (See my thoughts and why i struggle with yours?)

Tom, I do not believe in other gods, I think that you know this. I also put my trust in Jesus, not sure why you asked me that as you know that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah. The word god has always meant more than just God the Almighty....as it has been used to refer to men, judges, and Jesus in the bible and can mean mighty ones. It is only in recent times that the word god is thought to only mean the almighty creator. And so instead of being "watered down" it has been restricted in its meaning. They may have meant that Jesus was claiming to be God, but that was an accusation, and Jesus only claimed to be the Son of God.

You "struggle" with my thoughts because you are misunderstanding my beliefs. You said this " To say Jesus who is the Image of God is expressing 'a god" lesser than "The God" sounds odd to me...? " It sounds odd to you because I have never said that.

And this which you said..."Does your Jesus who is the image of God exactly express the Father or does he fall short? " also is something that I would not have said or believe, of course, he doesn't fall short, and he is the image of God expressing his God the Father, representing his God and Father.

There is no "your Jesus" there is only one Christ Jesus, the messiah and Son of God.

Isiah was a prophet and he used the term "mighty God" of Jesus and Jehovah both. How do you explain that exactly? You said God is the writer, what did God mean here?

All of the OT was originally written in the same case lettering and so Isaiah would have written it that way and so it would have been mighty god and not mighty God or Mighty God. And so being that all letters were of the same case, to determine who is being referred to you need to take the verses in context. And I do not believe that Isaiah meant that the Messiah would be God Almighty, but mighty one, as god can and does mean mighty ones, or ones of a higher position, or renowned ones.

Yes, which i personally believe we are made after Jesus's image since he is the Image of God. Jesus isnt In the Image of God, he "IS" the Image of God.

I see no difference in meaning between "in" and "is"

You are a woman and i am a man. If we where married, I would be your head and you would be submissive to me in a Godly world, correct? Does that make you any less Human or Manlike? Jesus Chose to empty himself, Jesus wasnt forced into submition. ... i see no room for misunderstanding that, and i agree that Jesus submits himself to the Father, but its not because he is forced to or because he is inferior to the Father in nature or being.

I don't understand why this that you said above as I have never said that Jesus was forced into anything. But I do believe he is the Son and the Messiah and not God the Almighty as Jesus himself says he has a God and Father. I'm sure you know what verse I am referring to. And I take Jesus at his word.

 

[1robin]

Good to know, i was trying to figure your thoughts out and it was very hard. Thanks for your answer.

You bet. I believe, but could not prove Jesus is God but I can show he was not a man like the rest of us.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Jesus asked Peter- "Who do you think I am?"
and he replied "The Son of God".
Jesus answered "Blessed are you, for my Father has revealed it to you" (Matt 13:16/17)

So are we to assume that God HASN'T revealed it to those people who still think Jesus is God himself?

 

[icebuddy]

#1 It also says men are Shepherds tof literal sheep, as was David, and symbolic ones, as in this passage.Acts 20:28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.

Jesus says we are "HIS" flock, everything you posted doesnt say the Flock is Davids or the Disciples. They oversee someone elses Flock. Jesus says we are his Flock and him the True Shepherd. I could show a Similar passage where Jehovah says He is our Rock, he knows of no other rock, yet in his word tells us not to be ignorant that Jesus is our Rock. Is 44:6-8 with 1cor 10:1-4

#2 Michael is the Archangel.When he came as Jesus in the flesh and accomplished his mission,

I do not believe the bible supports this. There is far more showing Jesus is God then an Angel Micheal. I would like to point out that Micheal is Jesus's head angel. Read 1 Thess 4:16-17 to see that Micheal is the one with Jesus. To confirm this read Rev 14:14 to see that is was not Jesus who was shouting, but the Archangel who was with him. Rev 19:17 also supports that Jesus isnt shouting, but an angel that was with him, namely Micheal the arch angel, one of the chief princes (dan 10:13) Just as John is the voice in the wilderness (Jn 1:23), the Archangel is the voice with Jesus. Jewish tradition is that there are 7 Archangels & Micheal is one of them...

#3 Jesus was created.Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
This is telling us that Jesus was born first over all creation.Meaning out of everything created,Jesus was first.Its very clear.

Firstborn - To think the word "Firstborn" means 1st created is wrong. First, the word "born" is something that only happens on earth. We have nothing that says "Births" happen in heaven. Jesus became God and Marys Firstborn son some 2014 years ago according to Luke 2:7. The Father then says Today you are my Son, Today i am your father in front of the Angels.(Hebrews 1:6) Jesus is called Firstborn to show his rank over creation. (Matt 28:18) which Jesus also Created and holds together by his very being. (Heb 1:2) All things where created "By" Jesus and "For" Jesus (Col 1:16) Not only is Jesus ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev1:5) he is the Creator(John 1:3). He is both the offspring of David (Ruler) and Root of David (creator). Rev22:16

#4There is not Trinity.There is God and Jesus.The holy spirit is God's active force.

i disagree with you on this... There would be no reason for bible passages to say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in unison if that was 100% accurate. To me thats the same as saying the universe isnt made up of Time, Space, and Matter...

2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus says "I and the Father are one" ,it never mentions the holy spirit.

So what are you trying to say? That Jesus is not in union with the Holy Spirit?

In John 17:21 it says that God, Jesus, and the people are all in each other.So you think that they are all literally in each other? No....It speaks of a spiritual union.If it were to be taken literally,then, all would be part of the Trinity.Notice it never mentions the holy spirit here either.

2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not in union with the father and Jesus? You are pointing to passages that I have not brought up anyways. let me ask you a question: If the Trinity was really true (as I believe) would Jesus be in union with the Father? This disproves nothing, only shows that the Trinity belief is inline with Scripture...

#5 I am not JW,yet.I have to become baptized in order to become one.

I studied with them too for about 1 year. i was lucky to study with an 80 year old lady who knew allot more than most JW. I remember a question I asked her that started my path to change directions. i asked her about the return of Jesus and she said it already happened in 1914. i said what about the passages that say every would see like lightning. She said, Only those looking saw (telling me JW where only ones looking) I asked if she saw him... No. Matthew 24:23-28 buzzed around in my head and something would not let me let her just say that and get away with it so easily. Then she said I needed to take a test before going to their kingdom hall. (Might of been a test before being baptized, dont fully remember) anyways, I told her that I wanted to read my bible complete before she came back again. i moved and didnt see her again...

#6The holy spirit is God's active force and not a person like many believe.

Read your bible. it says he has a mind, has emotions, has a will, prays, commands, grieved, "blasphemed", lied to, obeyed, is sent, teaches, and many more personality traits. How do you reconcile that the Holy Spirit is only a impersonal force when Gods word gives him so many personality traits?

 

[icebuddy]

Well to disagree with that is to disagree with God's Word.

Do you know that there is no possible way in the Greek to say Jesus is not God and be in line with scripture? Serious. ill give you the task to try to write something in the greek that says, "Jesus is not God". its impossible to write that in the greek when it says Jesus is God(Theos). You can water down the words all you want, but thats the truth.

Jesus is Theos! <--- Do you agree or disagree?

 

[icebuddy]

I will reply to your messages to me eventually Tom, for now not in a hurry. But you can answer this for me....what is "BBS" belief?

No Problem, just getting our brain activity going... Anyways i couldnt put "BS" belief in respect to Bible Student, so I added a B making BBS. it just means Bible Student belief which is JW belief as he is clearly learning from them, but not baptized yet

 

[Nada]

Do you know that there is no possible way in the Greek to say Jesus is not God and be in line with scripture? Serious. ill give you the task to try to write something in the greek that says, "Jesus is not God". its impossible to write that in the greek when it says Jesus is God(Theos). You can water down the words all you want, but thats the truth.

Jesus is Theos! <--- Do you agree or disagree?

Im not watering anything but my plants

First, it should be noted that the text itself shows that the Word was “with God,” hence could not be God, that is, be the Almighty God. (Note also vs 2, which would be unnecessary if vs 1 actually showed the Word to be God.) Additionally, the word for “god” (Gr., the·os&#8242 in its second occurrence in the verse is significantly without the definite article “the” (Gr., ho). Regarding this fact, Ernst Haenchen, in a commentary on the Gospel of John (chapters 1-6), stated: “[the·os&#8242;] and [ho the·os&#8242;] (‘god, divine’ and ‘the God’) were not the same thing in this period. . . . In fact, for the . . . Evangelist, only the Father was ‘God’ ([ho the·os&#8242;]; cf. 17:3); ‘the Son’ was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). But that is only hinted at in this passage because here the emphasis is on the proximity of the one to the other . . . . It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ . . . Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities.”—John 1, translated by

R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110.
After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb ‘was’ ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os&#8242;] is not the same thing as [ho the·os&#8242;] (‘divine’ is not the same thing as ‘God’).” (pp. 110, 111) Elaborating on this point, Philip B. Harner brought out that the grammatical construction in John 1:1 involves an anarthrous predicate, that is, a predicate noun without the definite article “the,” preceding the verb, which construction is primarily qualitative in meaning and indicates that “the logos has the nature of theos.” He further stated: “In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [the·os&#8242;] cannot be regarded as definite.” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Other translators, also recognizing that the Greek term has qualitative force and describes the nature of the Word, therefore render the phrase: “the Word was divine.”—AT; Sd; compare Mo; see NW appendix, p. 1579.


Jesus Christ &mdash; Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Nada]

Jesus says we are "HIS" flock, everything you posted doesnt say the Flock is Davids or the Disciples. They oversee someone elses Flock. Jesus says we are his Flock and him the True Shepherd. I could show a Similar passage where Jehovah says He is our Rock, he knows of no other rock, yet in his word tells us not to be ignorant that Jesus is our Rock. Is 44:6-8 with 1cor 10:1-4



I do not believe the bible supports this. There is far more showing Jesus is God then an Angel Micheal. I would like to point out that Micheal is Jesus's head angel. Read 1 Thess 4:16-17 to see that Micheal is the one with Jesus. To confirm this read Rev 14:14 to see that is was not Jesus who was shouting, but the Archangel who was with him. Rev 19:17 also supports that Jesus isnt shouting, but an angel that was with him, namely Micheal the arch angel, one of the chief princes (dan 10:13) Just as John is the voice in the wilderness (Jn 1:23), the Archangel is the voice with Jesus. Jewish tradition is that there are 7 Archangels & Micheal is one of them...



Firstborn - To think the word "Firstborn" means 1st created is wrong. First, the word "born" is something that only happens on earth. We have nothing that says "Births" happen in heaven. Jesus became God and Marys Firstborn son some 2014 years ago according to Luke 2:7. The Father then says Today you are my Son, Today i am your father in front of the Angels.(Hebrews 1:6) Jesus is called Firstborn to show his rank over creation. (Matt 28:18) which Jesus also Created and holds together by his very being. (Heb 1:2) All things where created "By" Jesus and "For" Jesus (Col 1:16) Not only is Jesus ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev1:5) he is the Creator(John 1:3). He is both the offspring of David (Ruler) and Root of David (creator). Rev22:16



i disagree with you on this... There would be no reason for bible passages to say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in unison if that was 100% accurate. To me thats the same as saying the universe isnt made up of Time, Space, and Matter...

2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.



So what are you trying to say? That Jesus is not in union with the Holy Spirit?



2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not in union with the father and Jesus? You are pointing to passages that I have not brought up anyways. let me ask you a question: If the Trinity was really true (as I believe) would Jesus be in union with the Father? This disproves nothing, only shows that the Trinity belief is inline with Scripture...



I studied with them too for about 1 year. i was lucky to study with an 80 year old lady who knew allot more than most JW. I remember a question I asked her that started my path to change directions. i asked her about the return of Jesus and she said it already happened in 1914. i said what about the passages that say every would see like lightning. She said, Only those looking saw (telling me JW where only ones looking) I asked if she saw him... No. Matthew 24:23-28 buzzed around in my head and something would not let me let her just say that and get away with it so easily. Then she said I needed to take a test before going to their kingdom hall. (Might of been a test before being baptized, dont fully remember) anyways, I told her that I wanted to read my bible complete before she came back again. i moved and didnt see her again...



Read your bible. it says he has a mind, has emotions, has a will, prays, commands, grieved, "blasphemed", lied to, obeyed, is sent, teaches, and many more personality traits. How do you reconcile that the Holy Spirit is only a impersonal force when Gods word gives him so many personality traits?

Person does not just mean a human being.Look up the word person and read all of the definitions.Jehovah God is a person,Jesus is a person, but the holy spirit is not.When the holy spirt is given by God to people to carry out His will,these people are not being possessed by a person called the holy spirit, or holy ghost.It is God's active force.His power.Here is an example.

Luke 1:35 In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son.

It refers to the holy spirt producing "power of the Most High."

Heres another.....

Micah 3:8 As for me, I am filled with power by the spirit of Jehovah,
And with justice and might,
To tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.

"power by the spirit of Jehovah"

And another.......

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·de&#8242;a and Sa·mar&#8242;i·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

The holy spirit is God's active force which gives people the power to carry out His will.It is not a person.

If you look a this passage in Luke it is obvious that Elizabeth is not being filled with another person.

Luke 1:41 Well, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit

Here John the Baptist refers to the holy spirit as power, not a person.

Matthew 3:11 I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire.

Peter speaks of this too.....
Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Naz&#8242;a·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him.
__________________
Matthew 10:16 "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

 

[Nada]

Jesus says we are "HIS" flock, everything you posted doesnt say the Flock is Davids or the Disciples. They oversee someone elses Flock. Jesus says we are his Flock and him the True Shepherd. I could show a Similar passage where Jehovah says He is our Rock, he knows of no other rock, yet in his word tells us not to be ignorant that Jesus is our Rock. Is 44:6-8 with 1cor 10:1-4



I do not believe the bible supports this. There is far more showing Jesus is God then an Angel Micheal. I would like to point out that Micheal is Jesus's head angel. Read 1 Thess 4:16-17 to see that Micheal is the one with Jesus. To confirm this read Rev 14:14 to see that is was not Jesus who was shouting, but the Archangel who was with him. Rev 19:17 also supports that Jesus isnt shouting, but an angel that was with him, namely Micheal the arch angel, one of the chief princes (dan 10:13) Just as John is the voice in the wilderness (Jn 1:23), the Archangel is the voice with Jesus. Jewish tradition is that there are 7 Archangels & Micheal is one of them...



Firstborn - To think the word "Firstborn" means 1st created is wrong. First, the word "born" is something that only happens on earth. We have nothing that says "Births" happen in heaven. Jesus became God and Marys Firstborn son some 2014 years ago according to Luke 2:7. The Father then says Today you are my Son, Today i am your father in front of the Angels.(Hebrews 1:6) Jesus is called Firstborn to show his rank over creation. (Matt 28:18) which Jesus also Created and holds together by his very being. (Heb 1:2) All things where created "By" Jesus and "For" Jesus (Col 1:16) Not only is Jesus ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev1:5) he is the Creator(John 1:3). He is both the offspring of David (Ruler) and Root of David (creator). Rev22:16



i disagree with you on this... There would be no reason for bible passages to say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in unison if that was 100% accurate. To me thats the same as saying the universe isnt made up of Time, Space, and Matter...

2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.



So what are you trying to say? That Jesus is not in union with the Holy Spirit?



2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not in union with the father and Jesus? You are pointing to passages that I have not brought up anyways. let me ask you a question: If the Trinity was really true (as I believe) would Jesus be in union with the Father? This disproves nothing, only shows that the Trinity belief is inline with Scripture...



I studied with them too for about 1 year. i was lucky to study with an 80 year old lady who knew allot more than most JW. I remember a question I asked her that started my path to change directions. i asked her about the return of Jesus and she said it already happened in 1914. i said what about the passages that say every would see like lightning. She said, Only those looking saw (telling me JW where only ones looking) I asked if she saw him... No. Matthew 24:23-28 buzzed around in my head and something would not let me let her just say that and get away with it so easily. Then she said I needed to take a test before going to their kingdom hall. (Might of been a test before being baptized, dont fully remember) anyways, I told her that I wanted to read my bible complete before she came back again. i moved and didnt see her again...



Read your bible. it says he has a mind, has emotions, has a will, prays, commands, grieved, "blasphemed", lied to, obeyed, is sent, teaches, and many more personality traits. How do you reconcile that the Holy Spirit is only a impersonal force when Gods word gives him so many personality traits?

JESUS did take control of the Kingdom in Heaven in 1914


The 2,520 year prophecy in the book of Daniel is also referred to as the prophecy of the &#8232;"Gentile Times." It deals with the time when God said there would be no more Kings &#8232;appointed by Him, on His throne, for Jerusalem. Back in the days the Jews wanted a King they could see, so God permitted Kings for Israel.Do you remember the first? It was Saul.So Saul was anointed by Samuel and became first King of Israel.Now,when the nation of Israel, in a sense, committed spiritual adultery against Jehovah God over the years,God turned away from them.Jehovah promised there would not be any more Kings appointed by Him for Israel anymore until Jesus Christ rules as King on Gods throne.&#8232;&#8232;The last King that was appointed by God was King Zedekiah.He was removed by &#8232;military force.This is how the prophecy begins........&#8232;&#8232;

&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;In 617 B.C.E. King Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian army was besieging Jerusalem.&#8232;Following the death of his father Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin began ruling as king.&#8232;After having reigned three months and ten days,Jehoiachin surrendered to the king of Babylon (617 B.C.E.) Subsequently, Nebuchadnezzar placed Zedekiah on the throne at Jerusalem and had him take an oath in Jehovah&#8217;s name. This oath obligated Zedekiah to be a loyal vassal king.&#8212;2Ch 36:10, 11; Eze 17:12-14; compare 2Ch 36:13.&#8232;Zedekiah was 21 years old and reigned for 11 years.&#8232;&#8232;Now,Jerusalem was under Babylonian control,by King Nebuchadnezzar, but, it did not fall until 607 B.C.E.King Zedekiah was 32.His young sons were killed before his eyes and he was then blinded, and taken captive back to Babylon, where he later died in custody. &#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;&#8232;

Ok,now that I have explained the history about King Zedekiah and King Nebuchadnezzar,we can finally begin.

When the fall of Jerusalem occurred,the Babylonian army took captives.Among these were 4 young men.Daniel,Mishael,Hananiah and Azariah.It was Daniel who would serve as a lamp for Jehovah in Babylon, and prophecy according to Gods will.----Ok...this is where we need to pay close attention.----&#8232;Since the last appointed King of Jerusalem was King Zedekiah,this marks the beginning of the "Gentile Times." This is the period of time that Jerusalem, and the world, would be ruled by Gentile Kings.&#8232;&#8232;This occurred in 607 B.C.E. So, according to the years given in the prophecy of Daniel,the 2,520 years,all one has to do is add the 606 years,since you do not count 607,and go forward 2,520 years.You come to the year 1914 CE. To verify this just add 606+1914 and you get 2,520 years. &#8232;&#8232;&#8232;


Ok,so now we have the end year of the 2,520 year prophecy being 1914 A.D. or C.E. &#8232;One might say,so what,what does that prove? What event of great significance &#8232;happened in the year 1914? WWI.There had never in the history of the world been a war that involved the entire globe.The world was at peace for a very long time and out of nowhere World War I erupted, literally over night.It started with the assassination of &#8232;Archduke Ferdinand,heir to the AustroHungarian Empire.He was shot to death along side his wife on June 28th 1914,by Serbian nationalist,in Sarajevo Bosnia.&#8232;&#8232;This is what sparked WWI.WWI also introduced military warfare never ever seen before like:Submarines,Tanks,Airplanes,Machine guns,Flame throwers,Chemical's etc..&#8232;&#8232;WWI happening tells us something.It's also happening at the end of the "Gentile Times" prophecy proves something.It shows how Jesus Christ has taken control of the &#8232;Kingdom of God ,and is reigning King on Gods throne.It coincides with what is spoken of in Revelation 12:9 about satan and his demons being cast down to earth.&#8232;&#8232;It also says in 12:12 "Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."&#8232;&#8232;It also says this in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.&#8232;&#8232;

So we have the end of the 2,520 year prophecy ending as WWI is starting.God stated that at the end of this 2,520 prophecy is when Jesus Christ would begin ruling as King.&#8232;When Jesus Christ returns and comes down to destroy the wicked, on the appointed day,thats when the wicked ones set for judgment will be done away with.This will mark the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of peace.Once the last enemy is done away with, which is death,then,Jesus Christ will hand over the Kingdom back to God.This is all spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.