Did people overcomplicate salvation?

[Theweirdtophat]

I never really thought salvation was attained by believing in a certain god, following a certain set of rules, obtaining a certain amount of knowledge, or even going through lots of meditation and shunning material things. I always thought salvation was pretty simple. Be good.

Don't hurt others and don't hurt yourself. I always thought salvation to the otherworld was obtained by being a good and moral person. The more good you do in your life, the higher you get in the totem pole. And of course you would get extra brownie points for doing something great, like saving a bunch of people's lives.

I don't think it's necessary to follow a certain religion or abstaining from many material things. I feel that being good is all that's really necessary.

 

[George-ananda]

Did people overcomplicate salvation?

I'll go even further with that thought. Do people overcomplicate things by thinking they need salvation (from what)?

 

[psychoslice]

If you are a naturally kind heart person then you don't need to make anything complicated, that's why I gave up religion, it was keeping me back from being my own true self, it only taught me how to be a phony.

 

[Quintessence]

I never really bought into the notion of something I need to be "saved" from in the first place...

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Belief in a religion is not necessary

But it does help

If helps give one a better perspective of the otherworld, spirits, realms and so forth. Connecting with nature helps as well. People have a different meaning of salvation. We can save ourselves and life I feel is a neverending learning process, that we continue to learn, even in the afterlife. Other realms can be visited but reincarnation plays a part in it. No religion has all the answers, but many of them have some answers. Their are spirits of the earth, higher beings, deities and so forth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you are a naturally kind heart person then you don't need to make anything complicated, that's why I gave up religion, it was keeping me back from being my own true self, it only taught me how to be a phony.

Perfect Zen

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I never really thought salvation was attained by believing in a certain god, following a certain set of rules, obtaining a certain amount of knowledge, or even going through lots of meditation and shunning material things. I always thought salvation was pretty simple. Be good.

Don't hurt others and don't hurt yourself. I always thought salvation to the otherworld was obtained by being a good and moral person. The more good you do in your life, the higher you get in the totem pole. And of course you would get extra brownie points for doing something great, like saving a bunch of people's lives.

I don't think it's necessary to follow a certain religion or abstaining from many material things. I feel that being good is all that's really necessary.

I actually think "religion" or practice, I will say, is necessary for choosing to live one way of life and not another (instead of saying salvation).

The Buddha talks about the parable of The Raft. He doesn't say throw the Raft away, but it's a means to get to safety (I guess you can say) or get grounded-better word.

In other words, religion is like your mother (analogy). The physical human being that comes to hug you and say "I love you." Disregarding the raft is knowing that your mother loves you regardless of where you are in the world and even when she passes before you, you still know she loves you. However, just because you know this, doesn't mean you discredit your mother herself.

That's why you see people put pictures of their ancestors and have ways to honor them etc. For me, it's not an analogy or symbolism, I am honoring my ancestors. Religion is the physical part of worship or devotion. It's the spoon and bowl (not the soup, some people mistake it for the soup), that holds the soup and gives you means to feed yourself. How do you drink soup without using a bow and spoon.

Religion isn't a bad word. It just means a practice. A discipline. How do you have a spiritual life by standing still?

Anyway,

Parable of the Raft

I shall show you, monks, the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to. Listen, monks, and heed well what I shall say" — "Yes, Lord," replied the monks. and the Blessed One spoke thus:

"Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?'

"What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" — "No, Lord" — "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft.

"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.

[14] how much more false ones!

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

From one pagan to another, what's the point of "salvation"? Death is neutral, like life. The goal is to be virtuous and respected on earth.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If Jesus can say that the doctor does not treat the well, but the sick, then it stands to reason not everyone needs him, right?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

From one pagan to another, what's the point of "salvation"? Death is neutral, like life. The goal is to be virtuous and respected on earth.

Doing good, learning more in the afterlife, meeting your ancestors. That would be my personal salvation, so to speak. Many religions have their own version of it. Mine is to be good, help others, connect with life and so forth. I don't believe a certain god can save me. I look at many deities and many prophets and gurus as teachers and examples to follow. Brigid, Jesus, Buddha and so forth. I just connect with the Irish deities more because I relate to them more. I don't think it ends on the afterlife, as the universe is huge. Assuming there's not another one, as other religions have mentioned or at least hinted that there are multiple universes to explore and numerous things one can learn in life.

 

[rusra02]

I never really thought salvation was attained by believing in a certain god, following a certain set of rules, obtaining a certain amount of knowledge, or even going through lots of meditation and shunning material things. I always thought salvation was pretty simple. Be g

Don't hurt others and don't hurt yourself. I always thought salvation to the otherworld was obtained by being a good and moral person. The more good you do in your life, the higher you get in the totem pole. And of course you would get extra brownie points for doing something great, like saving a bunch of people's lives.

I don't think it's necessary to follow a certain religion or abstaining from many material things. I feel that being good is all that's really necessary.

The Bible gives this caution about doing what we feel is right: "There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death." (Proverbs 14:12) I believe the only way to know good from bad, right from wrong, is to listen to our Creator, the Source of goodness. Adam and Eve opted to decide for themselves good and bad, rebelling against God's standards. Jesus Christ, by contrast, said; "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

 

[Quintessence]

Doing good, learning more in the afterlife, meeting your ancestors. That would be my personal salvation, so to speak. Many religions have their own version of it.

Salvation is a Christian concept connected to the idea of original sin. Unless you believe you need to do these things to avoid hell or to repent from your inherently sinful nature as a human, I really would not use a Christian term like "salvation" to be describing this. That serves to reinforce the already pervasive cultural hegemony of the Christian religion by describing concepts of other religions using Christian terminology as if they're somehow equivalents. What you are talking about strikes me simply as cultivating virtues and has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree with @Quintessence, the "word" salvation is a christian concept. I avoid the word because of it. In my opinion, Its part of most religions, though. Many religious feel that to live better lives they are to change their habits by whatever religious means-offerings, prayers, dancing, etc-to live better or as you as "good" lives. So technically, they are saved from their old life and now love the new. They are "saved" from the lives they lived before they took up the religion, moral lifestyle, or however called to live now.

If their religion or moral lifestyle is not meant to change them for the better, whats the point of living it? What role does itbplay in that persons life? A saved or a person who left the old and was saved (or maybe was called) to adopt the new are saved.

The better equilvant term forn salvation in a general sense of the term if christianize is born again: leaving the old life and living the new. "Because" we adopted a religion or moral life that changes us for the good we are saved.

For example, crude but just for case in point, Im saved by Buddhism. The Dharma gave me another way to see life that I find already is and does mirror how Ive always seen my own and reality in general. I was "born again" or changed my habits back when I practiced Zen. As a result of my practices bot Zen and Nichiren, I am saved from my hold habits to develop new ones. These habits I am saved from are things that make me do bad things. I am glad I am "saved" because now I have a means to do good whether I have religion or not.

We need to stop associatng meanings of words just because the word itself is associated with christianity. The word god is used in christianity but many Hindu, Pagans, etc use that samr word. Salvation is in Nichiren Letters, the Gosho. Sin is used in some translations of the sutras. These arent christian words.

If we want to be saved, in the OP def be good, we need to change our old ways and do good things. Nothing more according to the OP. Each person has their own view of the "meaning" of salvation.

 

[LuisDantas]

Can salvation ever NOT be overcomplicated? It is an odd concept.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Salvation is a Christian concept connected to the idea of original sin. Unless you believe you need to do these things to avoid hell or to repent from your inherently sinful nature as a human, I really would not use a Christian term like "salvation" to be describing this. That serves to reinforce the already pervasive cultural hegemony of the Christian religion by describing concepts of other religions using Christian terminology as if they're somehow equivalents. What you are talking about strikes me simply as cultivating virtues and has nothing to do with salvation.

Not really, Jews used it before. Christians use it more often, doesn't mean it started with Christianity. Zoroastrians used it as well when describing the end times. There is more than one definition for it as well. What would the Buddha be called? One could say that he gave salvation to those who were in the endless cycle of life death and rebirth, by giving them a means to escape the cycle. Or the Mahavira in Jainism. There's other ways to define it.

1. liberation from ignorance or illusion
   
   
2. preservation from destruction or failure : deliverance from danger or difficulty

 

[metis]

Can I be saved from those who want to save me?

 

[Quintessence]

Not really, Jews used it before. Christians use it more often, doesn't mean it started with Christianity. Zoroastrians used it as well when describing the end times. There is more than one definition for it as well. What would the Buddha be called? One could say that he gave salvation to those who were in the endless cycle of life death and rebirth, by giving them a means to escape the cycle. Or the Mahavira in Jainism. There's other ways to define it.

Dude, you can use words however you want. Just don't be surprised when others call you out on it and recognize that it's a term that has heavy Christian overtones and implications. Liberation from Samsara is called Moksha, Nirvana, and other various culturally-specific (and IMHO more appropriate) terms, by the way. No need to use Christian terms. It's a level of odd to me on par with calling the gods Yaweh or Jesus or something.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I suppose for a sense of salvation, there needs to be a sense of foreboding and helplessness.

 

[ronandcarol]

I never really thought salvation was attained by believing in a certain god, following a certain set of rules, obtaining a certain amount of knowledge, or even going through lots of meditation and shunning material things. I always thought salvation was pretty simple. Be good.

You are correct to a point, you cannot attain salvation by believing in a certain god! There are many small 'g' gods that religions and people follow, but there is no small 'g' god that will get you to Heaven. The Christian God of the Bible, the God that has carved a specific set of rules onto a stone tablet, is the God that loves you with an unchanging love. While we were still sinners this Living God sent His only Son to pay the ultimate price for our sins so that we could have eternal salvation. That is the God that does deserve our worship and praise. And oh yes, you do have to surrender your hearts to His Son who died to give you that salvation.

ronandcarol

 

[Theweirdtophat]

You are correct to a point, you cannot attain salvation by believing in a certain god! There are many small 'g' gods that religions and people follow, but there is no small 'g' god that will get you to Heaven. The Christian God of the Bible, the God that has carved a specific set of rules onto a stone tablet, is the God that loves you with an unchanging love. While we were still sinners this Living God sent His only Son to pay the ultimate price for our sins so that we could have eternal salvation. That is the God that does deserve our worship and praise. And oh yes, you do have to surrender your hearts to His Son who died to give you that salvation.

ronandcarol

If I don't go to heaven, I will go to the otherworld

I never thought there was just one afterlife. I always thought there were many realms to visit. And reincarnation plays a part in it too.

Nobody, I think is ever born with sin. How can a newborn be a sinner when they have not done anything to obtain sin. God, or Yahweh is not the only god. He's one of many.