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Did Ramakrishna and his followers eat meat?
- Thread starter atmarama
- Start date
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
This is what Swami Vivekananda had to say on the subject of his Guru Ramakrishna and being a vegetarian.
About vegetarian diet I have to say this - first, my Master was a vegetarian; but if he was given meat offered to the Goddess, he used to hold it up to his head. The taking of life is undoubtedly sinful; but so long as vegetable food is not made suitable to the human system through progress in chemistry, there is no other alternative but meat-eating. So long as man shall have to live a Rajasika (active) life under circumstances like the present, there is no other way except through meat-eating. It is true that the Emperor Asoka saved the lives of millions of animals, by the threat of the sword; but is not the slavery of a thousand years more dreadful than that? Taking the life of a few goats as against the inability to protect the honour of one’s own wife and daughter, and to save the morsels for one’s children from robbing hands - which of these is more sinful? Rather let those belonging to the upper ten, who do not earn their livelihood by manual labour, not take meat; but the forcing of vegetarianism upon those who have to earn their bread by labouring day and night is one of the causes of the loss of our national freedom.
(Complete Works, 4.486-7)
All liking for fish and meat disappears when pure Sattva is highly developed, and these are the signs of its manifestation in a soul: sacrifice of everything for others, perfect non-attachment to lust and wealth, want of pride and egotism. The desire for animal food goes when these things are seen in a man. And where such indications are absent, and yet you find men siding with the non killing party, know it for a certainty that here there is either hypocrisy or a show of religion.
Complete works, 5.403)
Ramakrishna was a Vegetarian some of his followers in the past and today are not. Just like the Mahabhrata teaches both meat eating and Vegetarianism. The Hindu Kings use to eat meat. I think its clear that for the spiritual life and the environment not eating meat is better. Still like Swamiji says it is better not to force others to give up meat.
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zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend atmaram,
Jesus loved both non-vegetarian and wine and he was enlightened.
Besides till your *I* drops *you* are not fit for any master either.
Understand that most vegetarian are vegetarian by habit and not choice, though they would say choice and if offered meat unknowingly they will eat it without knowing or understanding.
When the mind reaches the state of merging one knows his oneness with even what he eats and prefers to eat not for taste but for survival as whatever one eats, is also part of that same *whole*.
Love & rgds
Jesus loved both non-vegetarian and wine and he was enlightened.
Besides till your *I* drops *you* are not fit for any master either.
Understand that most vegetarian are vegetarian by habit and not choice, though they would say choice and if offered meat unknowingly they will eat it without knowing or understanding.
When the mind reaches the state of merging one knows his oneness with even what he eats and prefers to eat not for taste but for survival as whatever one eats, is also part of that same *whole*.
Love & rgds
I am the same. I can't imagine a Realised personality intentionally eating meat. It seems to go against the whole idea of Love and non-violence.
kaisersose
Active Member
It is all relative.
The Jains do not eat root vegetables as the process of harvesting these vegetables results in the deaths of countless insects. The holy men of this community even go as far as wearing masks, taking care not to step on insects, etc.
If that becomes the standard of practising non-violence, then *no* Vaishnava Guru meets this standard. By this standard, Vaishnavas aren't really non-violent and and are no better off than meat-eaters as they have no concern at all about killing insects and other forms of life. Not caring for one set of life forms and caring for one set (chicken, lamb, etc) is a double standard.
Or as we see in nature, one form lives off another and it cannot possibly be spiritual to create a trend against nature. Specifically, in this case, one can safely say that Vivekananda had more concern about helping others than most Vaishnavas and was definitely in a far better position to preach non-violence, love and humanity. Same with the Jesus, Buddha,and a whole bunch of other meat-eating Leaders.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Well, thats your path. I can see your point. Since I don't eat meat.
It must be said that the Ramakrishna Mission has been around for over one Hundred years. It is a huge organization I know of no Hindu group that is larger. They have had no scandals, no children have been molested (that we know of ) they have 100s of orphanages and 100s of schools. No swami has given up being a swami in order to get married. Think about that of all those years and 1000s of Swamis none giving up and getting married. They have many people practice many different forums of Hinduism, You can find folks who do Tantric Sadhana, Advaita, or even Vaishnava.
Ramakrishna produced many great saints. And many pundits, swamis, and Gosvamis of Gaudiya Vaishnava community in Nabadwip proclaimed him as such. He was even allowed to sit in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu seat as a sign of respect. He is the only one that I that has been given that honor Many in the Gaudiya Vaishnava community claimed that Ramakrishna gave vissions of Krishna by just touching them.
One more Important point one of Ramakrishnas disciples was Swami Vivekananda who is seen as the most Important Hindu teacher of the 20th century. (Died on July 4, 1902) More then one Indian News papers poll came up with this. It is surprising due to the fact that Gandhi lived in the 20th century.
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
How would you Interpret this story.
THE ENLIGHTENED BUTCHER
(A story from Mahabharata)
This story from Mahabharata brings to light that our spiritual achievement is useless if we neglect our duties or Dharma.
Kaushika was his parents' only son.
"Mother," he said one day, " I want to go off into the jungle and devote myself to spiritual studies. "
His mother said with concern, "But son, your father and I are very old. Your father is so sick he can hardly move. If you go away, what will happen to us? Who will attend to our needs?"
Kaushika did not listen. He was determined to study the Vedas. His mother cried in vain as she watched her son turn his back on her and leave for the jungle.
Eventually Kaushika acquired great mystical powers.
One afternoon, as he was meditating under a tree, a crane flew up, and perched herself on a branch above Kaushika. Some bird droppings fell on Kaushika's head. Kaushika furiously threw a fiery gaze at the crane.
The crane immediately fell dead.
The sage felt sorry for what he had done. "How could I have allowed my anger to take over me that way?" He mourned.
Later in the day, he went to a village to beg for alms. The lady of the house asked him to wait and went to get some food. Right then her husband arrived. She immediately set aside the pot of food she was taking to the sage and went to attend her husband.
After washing his feet, giving him food, and attending to his needs, she came back out to give the alms to the sage. The sage was very insulted. "You put your husband before a pious sage? Do you know the power of a Brahmin?"
She calmly replied, "Yes, a true Brahmin is he who has mastered his anger. Please do not threaten me, I am not a crane that will die by your fiery gaze."
The sage was amazed. "How does she know about the crane?" he wondered.
The lady continued, "Oh holy one! You are a learned Brahmin but you have not understood the truth about virtue. If you want to be enlightened, go to Dharmavyadha who lives in Mathura. Any one will tell you where he lives."
The sage thanked the lady and hurried to Mathura. "He must be a great and learned sage indeed," Kaushika thought to himself.
But when he finally reached Dharmavyadaha's place, he found it to be a butcher shop!
A very ordinary looking man came out and said, "Welcome holy one. I am Dharmavyadaha, the man you seek."
"How can a butcher be spiritually enlightened?" Kaushika asked in amazement.
Dharmavyadaha smiled and said with compassion, "I know the story of the crane and of the woman who sent you here. Come, let us go to my house. "
The sage could not contain himself and blurted out, "But butchering animals is such a sinful profession! Are you not ashamed?"
"I am not," the butcher calmly said. "I am engaged in a family trade. I work hard and honestly at it. There is no reason for me to be ashamed of my work!"
"Holy one," continued the butcher. "If I do injury to other creatures, so do you as you did to the crane. "
"As we walk on the soil, we are trampling on numerous creatures. Nor is the air devoid of creatures."
"You see that farmer tilling the land? He is killing so many animals that thrive under the soil."
They reached the butcher's house. The butcher's wife was doing her house hold chores and his two boys were playing.
The butcher introduced the sage to his wife and boys.
Then the butcher entered the house and touched his parents' feet.
"Here is a learned Brahmin who has come from a far-off place." the butcher told his old father.
"Welcome, holy one," the father said.
Before leaving the room, the butcher remarked, "My parents are my Gods. My wife and my children attend to them with devotion and love. We consider caring for them to be our greatest duty."
"In doing one's duty cheerfully, lies true virtue. This is what the dutiful wife sent you to learn."
"Oh learned one!" the butcher continued, "You have run away from your responsibilities and deserted your aged father and mother. Spiritual achievement is useless if one has neglected one's Dharma, or duties."
The sage remembered his mother crying, "Who will look after us when you are gone my son?"
The sage apologized, "You have shown me the path of true virtue, the true meaning of Dharma, Oh pious one. I am deeply indebted to you."
Kaushika immediately returned to his parents and served them lovingly till the end of their days.
Read more: THE ENLIGHTENED BUTCHER(A story from Mahabharata)
It is easy to judge others. Some say you can't be a serious seeker of God if you have premarital sex, eat meat, are an impersonalist. It is just so easy to judge other people.
Ramakrishna danced with the drunks and prostitutes, blessed theaves, even was kind to Englishman.
THE ENLIGHTENED BUTCHER
(A story from Mahabharata)
This story from Mahabharata brings to light that our spiritual achievement is useless if we neglect our duties or Dharma.
Kaushika was his parents' only son.
"Mother," he said one day, " I want to go off into the jungle and devote myself to spiritual studies. "
His mother said with concern, "But son, your father and I are very old. Your father is so sick he can hardly move. If you go away, what will happen to us? Who will attend to our needs?"
Kaushika did not listen. He was determined to study the Vedas. His mother cried in vain as she watched her son turn his back on her and leave for the jungle.
Eventually Kaushika acquired great mystical powers.
One afternoon, as he was meditating under a tree, a crane flew up, and perched herself on a branch above Kaushika. Some bird droppings fell on Kaushika's head. Kaushika furiously threw a fiery gaze at the crane.
The crane immediately fell dead.
The sage felt sorry for what he had done. "How could I have allowed my anger to take over me that way?" He mourned.
Later in the day, he went to a village to beg for alms. The lady of the house asked him to wait and went to get some food. Right then her husband arrived. She immediately set aside the pot of food she was taking to the sage and went to attend her husband.
After washing his feet, giving him food, and attending to his needs, she came back out to give the alms to the sage. The sage was very insulted. "You put your husband before a pious sage? Do you know the power of a Brahmin?"
She calmly replied, "Yes, a true Brahmin is he who has mastered his anger. Please do not threaten me, I am not a crane that will die by your fiery gaze."
The sage was amazed. "How does she know about the crane?" he wondered.
The lady continued, "Oh holy one! You are a learned Brahmin but you have not understood the truth about virtue. If you want to be enlightened, go to Dharmavyadha who lives in Mathura. Any one will tell you where he lives."
The sage thanked the lady and hurried to Mathura. "He must be a great and learned sage indeed," Kaushika thought to himself.
But when he finally reached Dharmavyadaha's place, he found it to be a butcher shop!
A very ordinary looking man came out and said, "Welcome holy one. I am Dharmavyadaha, the man you seek."
"How can a butcher be spiritually enlightened?" Kaushika asked in amazement.
Dharmavyadaha smiled and said with compassion, "I know the story of the crane and of the woman who sent you here. Come, let us go to my house. "
The sage could not contain himself and blurted out, "But butchering animals is such a sinful profession! Are you not ashamed?"
"I am not," the butcher calmly said. "I am engaged in a family trade. I work hard and honestly at it. There is no reason for me to be ashamed of my work!"
"Holy one," continued the butcher. "If I do injury to other creatures, so do you as you did to the crane. "
"As we walk on the soil, we are trampling on numerous creatures. Nor is the air devoid of creatures."
"You see that farmer tilling the land? He is killing so many animals that thrive under the soil."
They reached the butcher's house. The butcher's wife was doing her house hold chores and his two boys were playing.
The butcher introduced the sage to his wife and boys.
Then the butcher entered the house and touched his parents' feet.
"Here is a learned Brahmin who has come from a far-off place." the butcher told his old father.
"Welcome, holy one," the father said.
Before leaving the room, the butcher remarked, "My parents are my Gods. My wife and my children attend to them with devotion and love. We consider caring for them to be our greatest duty."
"In doing one's duty cheerfully, lies true virtue. This is what the dutiful wife sent you to learn."
"Oh learned one!" the butcher continued, "You have run away from your responsibilities and deserted your aged father and mother. Spiritual achievement is useless if one has neglected one's Dharma, or duties."
The sage remembered his mother crying, "Who will look after us when you are gone my son?"
The sage apologized, "You have shown me the path of true virtue, the true meaning of Dharma, Oh pious one. I am deeply indebted to you."
Kaushika immediately returned to his parents and served them lovingly till the end of their days.
Read more: THE ENLIGHTENED BUTCHER(A story from Mahabharata)
It is easy to judge others. Some say you can't be a serious seeker of God if you have premarital sex, eat meat, are an impersonalist. It is just so easy to judge other people.
Ramakrishna danced with the drunks and prostitutes, blessed theaves, even was kind to Englishman.
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Remember Swami Vivekananda came to America in the 1890s. Once he even had cowboys shooting their six guns at his feet trying to make him dance. It was said by a news paper that he just stood their with arms folded then gave a lecture on Vedanta. He was against making religion all about the kitchen. It was the idea's like love that was important to him.
Kuvalya_Dharmasindhu
Nondualistic Bhakta
Very well stated... Religion isn't all about the kitchen. Your example from the Mahabharata illustrates perfectly that it's not your diet that brings you closer to God, it's your devotion to your dharma and the Lord... This is why Karma-yoga, Bhakti-yoga, Jnana-yoga are inseparable and should be practiced simultaneously (as Sri Ramakrishna instructed)...
I'd also like to add that while i understand that some feel like a vegetarian diet is more humaine, plants have life within them too. Just because they don't move or have the same faculties as other lifeforms (like humans and most animals) doesn't mean that they aren't living, they are sentient...
Hari Om!
I can understand this perspective, but I will tell you how I think about it.
Gone are the days when people hunted for their food and respected the life they took, with knowledge of Dharma. Most people eat meat that is produced from a meat industry that is a very horrific aspect of our society. Can you imagine the karma involved? Not just for the life taken, but all the suffering related.
An Enlightened person is immune to karma, but do they knowingly and willingly contribute to this inhumane industry? I should hope not. At least not the Spiritual Masters. How can they say that it is their dharma to eat meat? Their life is dedicated to spiritual practice- not body building and war, which requires an intake of more protein.
I do not understand why people try to equate plant life to animal life. You may believe that plants are souls just like every living entity, but it is clear that there are various levels of consciousness associated with every life form. A plant has a certain level of sentience, but this level is so much less than the average animal. Plants do not experience the level of emotions and pain that an animal does. So the suffering and the associated karma involved with killing plants is minimal in comparison.
As well as this, a lot of the plants that are consumed are not killed. That is because the apple is part of the Tree- the tree is the body and the apples, leaves, branches grow from it. You might hurt the tree a little when you pick its fruit, but the individual apples are not individual life forms.
In other words, I do not think that plants can be compared to animals in this context. It is not an excuse.
Love is the essence of spirituality. But from my perspective, being truly in Love would lead one to attempting to reduce suffering as much as possible. That's the main point of vegetarianism. So it is hard for me to think of a realised spiritual devotee as someone who voluntarily and knowingly chooses to support the meat industry. That to me, is contradictory to the principles of Love.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friends,
Friend Wannabe Yogi has recollected stories of Vivekananda and Kaushika.
Another story which is recent:
Was attending a Yoga Camp organised by one of Swami Satyananda's disciple from the Bihar School of Yoga, Munger, Bihar. Swami Satyananda was the disciple of Swami Sivavanda.
Once when Satyananda viisted Australia where he has a centre he was invited by his disciple for dinner where the host prepared lots of food with love and care for her loving guru.
The guru could not decline the invitation / love and so went for dinner.
After the usual talks were over the host welcomed the guru and her guests for dinner and lo and behold they were mostly non-vegetarian food.
The guru could not again refuse due to the love and so ate some of the non-vegetarian food and then came back to his room.
On coming back he simply did*kunjala* and vomited all the food eaten so as not to disturb the delicate balance of his internal organs. He did convey is preference for vegetarian food to his devotee later and its reasons.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with food as it is not only that animals have life which is why one should not eat non-veg but also if you take Jain food of leaves and fruits, they too are life. The logic of Jaina path is that life that regrows if eaten is better as life then does not get uprooted and so allowed to evolve and so even roots like potatoes, onions etc are not to be eaten. Most jain followers I am in touch do take roots but only vegetarian food.
The story of Gautama and how his followers eat non-veg had been narrated earlier in some thread/post.
Kindly do not allow the mind to attach to any notion about any thing or any subject as that is an attachment and any attachment is a barrier to enlightenment and these barriers are in the mind and so it is the mind that one needs to watch at all times rather than what one eats/drinks etc.
Love & rgds
Friend Wannabe Yogi has recollected stories of Vivekananda and Kaushika.
Another story which is recent:
Was attending a Yoga Camp organised by one of Swami Satyananda's disciple from the Bihar School of Yoga, Munger, Bihar. Swami Satyananda was the disciple of Swami Sivavanda.
Once when Satyananda viisted Australia where he has a centre he was invited by his disciple for dinner where the host prepared lots of food with love and care for her loving guru.
The guru could not decline the invitation / love and so went for dinner.
After the usual talks were over the host welcomed the guru and her guests for dinner and lo and behold they were mostly non-vegetarian food.
The guru could not again refuse due to the love and so ate some of the non-vegetarian food and then came back to his room.
On coming back he simply did*kunjala* and vomited all the food eaten so as not to disturb the delicate balance of his internal organs. He did convey is preference for vegetarian food to his devotee later and its reasons.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with food as it is not only that animals have life which is why one should not eat non-veg but also if you take Jain food of leaves and fruits, they too are life. The logic of Jaina path is that life that regrows if eaten is better as life then does not get uprooted and so allowed to evolve and so even roots like potatoes, onions etc are not to be eaten. Most jain followers I am in touch do take roots but only vegetarian food.
The story of Gautama and how his followers eat non-veg had been narrated earlier in some thread/post.
Kindly do not allow the mind to attach to any notion about any thing or any subject as that is an attachment and any attachment is a barrier to enlightenment and these barriers are in the mind and so it is the mind that one needs to watch at all times rather than what one eats/drinks etc.
Love & rgds
atmarama
Struggling Spiritualist
Vaisnava's try to follow what is enjoined in the scripture. For example Krishna says in Gita 9.26: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water I will accept". Now it is understood that actually Krishna accepts love and devotion, it is not that He needs our meagre offerings of fruit etc. But He does specify what one should offer ie nowhere does He ask for meat or the like. This is our primary consideration.
From another perspective though, of logic, we can surely understand that taking the life of a fruit, vegetable, sprout, grain, milk, sugar etc is far less sinful than taking the life of a cow, sheep, goat, chicken etc. For one the animals cry like anything - whearas fruit almost begs to be eaten.
Although I do accept that it is an individual choice - I personally believe it uncultured even for an ordinary man to partake of flesh when there are decidedly less violent ways to procure nourishment, what to speak of a spiritual teacher...
I would say that Krishna's ultimate instruction is 18.66: Abandon all varieties of dharma and just surrender unto Me, I shall protect you, do not fear."
Haribol
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
All the meals I have been served at their Temples have been Vegetarian. My teacher when I attended their temple was a Vegetarian. I believe this is the reason that I have been able to give up meat for so many years.
The Ramakrishna order is not in the habit of forcing their ideas on anybody. They don't even force Hinduism on others. At least in the case of one of their orphanages (In the past I am not sure about today) they even raise muslim children as muslim. The world has many people who don't eat meat. They try to set a higher example by loving all who come to them. They are not political or big on forcing others to follow external rules. The order does have its problems, but they do offer the best example of loving others just for the sake of Love. Their charity programs are unmatched in efficiency and care for the poor. When a labor union was on strike at one of their big hospitals in India they just told the labor union we can't afford to pay that much. They were willing to hand the whole hospital over to the labor union if they wanted it. Not being pushy and dogmatic is their way. I am just glad that somebody lives that way. This example is more important for the world then one more group like pita demanding that everyone gives up meat.
That being said I know a few monks who eat meat when it is offererd to them. I just don't see the problems with this. The Lord Rama hunted himself. One of the monks I know was in a temple in Assam when it was blown up by Christians, he was hurt bad. He never talked about it and was extremely kind to Christians. I was shock to hear about it from others. Yet this is one of the Monks that I know who will eat meat at times.
He is full of devotion and loves God. Who am I to judge him for eating meat when he is a much greater man then I am.
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atmarama
Struggling Spiritualist
Very nice points, thank you Madhuri
One other point to consider, as we are followers of the vedas, is the gunas. Sattva, rajas and tama - where do you think meat eating fits in?
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
You should read his biography. It leaves little to question.
I agree with everything you have said.
I certainly do not judge a person 'good' or 'bad' or better or worse than myself based on their diet. In fact, I can agree that a person is able to advance spiritually while eating meat. A meat eater can still be very wise and a great spiritual teacher.
But is he realised? And if he is, could there be a reasonable explanation?
Rama hunted yes, but didn't he play the role of a Kshatriya? It's harder to judge an avatar, when it is said that anything that comes into contact with him is instantly liberated.
This monk that you spoke of, is he realised? Or still somewhat covered by maya? I am not out to judge him, but can only say that even the most wonderful people are in some aspects of life, ignorant. By ignorant, I mean that perhaps it has never occurred to them to behave differently, and in this situation, to regard animals as living entities just as worthy of our love and compassion.
If it does think this way toward animals, it would be really interesting to ask him why he still eats meat and his philosophical view about it.
I think it is wonderful that the Ramakrishna order does not push their ideas onto others. That is how it should be. Yogananda was the same. Many Masters are like that. They recommend a vegetarian lifestyle, but do not force or condemn those who choose to eat meat. I would not force people either. But I am still of the opinion that a person in the capacity to enjoy a vegetarian diet would do so if they are truly Realised. As I said earlier, to have Love causes one to want to limit suffering as much as possible. This is extended to animal suffering, which is why vegetarianism has been such a big part of Hinduism. There's a very good reason for that.
I'd like to.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
This is a hard question because I am not realized. I do not believe him to be free I see traces of ego in him. Still I believe fully realized souls as a rare thing on this earth.
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