Did the ''Big Bang'' create time and space or...?

[Thief]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

decide if substance can 'self' create and multiply
in large amounts.......VERY......large amounts
and do so with extreme acceleration....
and continue to gain speed even to this very day after billions of years

and you can believe in science

ooops......science also insists.....
nothing can move without 'something' to move it

so substance cannot be 'self' motivated

'Something' else had to start all of this

 

[Deidre]

decide if substance can 'self' create and multiply
in large amounts.......VERY......large amounts
and do so with extreme acceleration....
and continue to gain speed even to this very day after billions of years

and you can believe in science

ooops......science also insists.....
nothing can move without 'something' to move it

so substance cannot be 'self' motivated

'Something' else had to start all of this

I'm starting to think so, but science is okay with saying ''we don't know what that something could have been.'' Or might have been.

Or...

I'm reading the Bible again, with an objective view, and it's interesting that 'expanse' is used in Genesis. How could they have known that? I don't believe that's a forgery, or that Genesis was ''corrupted,'' so it's really fascinating to read that, and compare it to what we know in science.

 

[Thief]

I'm starting to think so, but science is okay with saying ''we don't know what that something could have been.'' Or might have been.

Or...

I'm reading the Bible again, with an objective view, and it's interesting that 'expanse' is used in Genesis. How could they have known that? I don't believe that's a forgery, or that Genesis was ''corrupted,'' so it's really fascinating to read that, and compare it to what we know in science.

my copy uses the word....void
and a vague image of a spirit moving over the water
and darkness was upon the face of the deep

very poetic

and perhaps the only means to describe .....
no location
no light....no shadow
no heat...no cold

and in terms of movement as we think of it
nowhere to be and nowhere to go

so....the ability to say....I AM!....
is the first mystery
and it still holds as such

 

[Deidre]

my copy uses the word....void
and a vague image of a spirit moving over the water
and darkness was upon the face of the deep

very poetic

and perhaps the only means to describe .....
no location
no light....no shadow
no heat...no cold

and in terms of movement as we think of it
nowhere to be and nowhere to go

so....the ability to say....I AM!....
is the first mystery
and it still holds as such

Yesss, ''void'' and ''expanse'' are both used. I mean, how would Moses know that, they didn't know that back then. And there are some theories out there now, granted just theories, that are suggesting the earth was formed from a black hole. Hmmm!!

 

[Thief]

Yesss, ''void'' and ''expanse'' are both used. I mean, how would Moses know that, they didn't know that back then. And there are some theories out there now, granted just theories, that are suggesting the earth was formed from a black hole. Hmmm!!

indeed.....!
start a thread on Moses
i will be there

 

[idav]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

Did Big Bang create time? Probably not. Lots been covered already in the thread but here's my half a cent. Special relativity suggests that increased power means getting closer to timelessness. When time, in theory, might reach zero they call hat the event horizon. Hawking suggests time was different but we really don't know what to expect at the event horizon, time could stand still or go backwards, or be something else entirely.

 

[WalterTrull]

... did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang?

It seems to me there is only a forever now. “Before forever” does not compute. It is easier for me to understand creation if I put everything in present tense. In the beginning is the word: kind of like the basic building block, the primal reason, the underlying truth. I interpret the biblical days of creation, not as units of some past time, but as the building blocks of now: the structure of now. The Big Bang seems another attempt to describe now, just as are the biblical days of creation. Past and future look to be anchoring and shaping tools for now. Time appears to be only a convenient mental construct to rationalize, observe, coordinate and effect an ever changing now. I don’t get the math involved with quantum, but I really like the conclusions. One of them being: there’s nothing actually out there, only the observation, which creates the illusion. My take: an illusion anchored and shaped by mental concepts of past and future.

 

[Skwim]

Maybe. But it is rather illuminating to view the universe from the non-causal vantage point.

How does that viewing go? I.e, what does it entail?

.

 

[shunyadragon]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

The beginning of of our universe, not the greater cosmos, would not be a Creation in and of itself.

The beginning of the universe would the likely either be the expansion of a singularity that formed form preexisting energy and matter form the quantum world, or the expansion of a preexisting universe in a cyclic process of an eternal Quantum world universe that exists beyond any one of the many possible universes.

 

[VioletVortex]

I don't believe in the "big bang" in the traditional sense, I think space time emerged from itself by its own nature, however, if an amount of matter as large as the universe were suddenly brought into existence, it would inherently bring with it space time, as there seems to be some interdependence between space and matter, look at gravity for example.

 

[David T]

Time and Space (or more properly, the space-time that is our 'universe') IS the "Big Bang."

People of a theistic bent say that God caused the universe. Those of an atheistic bent say that the universe came to be by natural means. Those of an agnostic bent on the question would rather wait for further evidence that might explain our observations, and in the meantime, say "We don't know, but I'm sure glad some people are trying to collect data and create models that would explain our observations and figure out ways to testing the different alternatives without resorting to We Don't Know Yet, Therefore God Did It and other such nonsense."

"create models that would explain our observations". If the model and obsevation match, is the the model the observation itself? Is a photo of a Person the person? Is an image you observe in a mirror you? Is linguistic phrase as you read it " the orange had a wonerful fragrance, and its taste was sweet" actually you eating an orange? What does a "model" actually create? Are you experiencing the model? If you are experiencing the model, what if someone does not have the capicity to experience the model? Are they lesser? Do they somehow held outside the " model experiencing club? Is science nothing more than a model experiencing club closed off by "experts" of each topic eho by some magic of education are model experts telling you how to experience the model in each "expert domain"? This all model creating, of model creating experts of course is accedemic and very christian btw starting with my nonsense degree called theology. Since i know for a fact that is nonsense i am going to be a bit diogenes on this stuff that likes to think its science. It all may be, but its very very very limited and mechanical modeling at best.not even that interesting really. Like talking about car engines if that is your thing. Nature as car engine ha, so nascar!!!

 

[Profound Realization]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

I don't know. I also don't know if there were a "Big Bang." Any bangs/explosions that I'm aware of tend to destroy, not create.

Of course, as far as our minds could take us... and with physics...nothing can't create anything. This would be a gazillion fold more magical in my opinion than intelligence behind such. With the human ego, it's difficult to comprehend anything that could be greater or more intelligent than us.

A lot of things always could be such as an end is a beginning and a beginning is an end. Or there was always the one beginning we are aware of. Anything will always be assumptions/theories/beliefs/imaginations... which can be beautiful things.

 

[Meow Mix]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

The Big Bang event was by many definitions a minimal entropy state (whether a local minimum or absolute minimum is unknown). The reason I bring this up is because questions about time get complicated: for instance a seemingly necessary element defining a temporal dimension from a spatial dimension is its asymmetry, its "arrow." The time we're familiar with gets its arrow from the entropic gradient. It's a good question as to whether all types of time are defined by asymmetrical gradients or not.

What I'm getting at here is that time *as we know it* may well have began with the Big Bang event because the proverbial ball started rolling down the entropic hill.

However, there may well have been something "before" the Big Bang event itself: we have to be careful to realize that when we say "before" in this instance not to equivocate with what we mean when we normally say "before." Here we mean there is some sort of metatime. For example, if Penrose is correct and Big Bang events are cyclical, each instantiation of a universe would have its own time, while what I mean by a "metatime" would be the overall time during, between, and through those iterations. (Explaining this would be easier if I could draw or something). The universe doesn't even have to by cyclical for there to have been something "before" (speaking metatime here) the Big Bang, and we just don't know: prior to the Planck Epoch, there is no data to speak of without a working theory of quantum gravity.

 

[Polymath257]

The Big Bang event was by many definitions a minimal entropy state (whether a local minimum or absolute minimum is unknown). The reason I bring this up is because questions about time get complicated: for instance a seemingly necessary element defining a temporal dimension from a spatial dimension is its asymmetry, its "arrow." The time we're familiar with gets its arrow from the entropic gradient. It's a good question as to whether all types of time are defined by asymmetrical gradients or not.

What I'm getting at here is that time *as we know it* may well have began with the Big Bang event because the proverbial ball started rolling down the entropic hill.

However, there may well have been something "before" the Big Bang event itself: we have to be careful to realize that when we say "before" in this instance not to equivocate with what we mean when we normally say "before." Here we mean there is some sort of metatime. For example, if Penrose is correct and Big Bang events are cyclical, each instantiation of a universe would have its own time, while what I mean by a "metatime" would be the overall time during, between, and through those iterations. (Explaining this would be easier if I could draw or something). The universe doesn't even have to by cyclical for there to have been something "before" (speaking metatime here) the Big Bang, and we just don't know: prior to the Planck Epoch, there is no data to speak of without a working theory of quantum gravity.

The usual distinction made is between coordinate time (your metatime) and entropic time. Even in a multiverse context, there is coordinate time. Each individual universe has a 'projection' of that universal time as its internal, entropic time.

 

[Milton Platt]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

I'm thinking you should ask a physicist or two, or three. Nobody really knows because we do not have the tools to look any further back than just before the big bang.

 

[DavidFirth]

I have this theory that there was this huge party going on, then somebody popped a cork on a bottle of Port, and WA-LA, we have a Universe!

Einstein was complaining because we ran out of beer so we sent him to St. Louis.

 

[DavidFirth]

I have this theory that there was this huge party going on, then somebody popped a cork on a bottle of Port, and WA-LA, we have a Universe!

Einstein was complaining because we ran out of beer so we sent him to St. Louis.

The clam dip was to die for!

 

[Milton Platt]

I'm thinking you should ask a physicist or two, or three. Nobody really knows because we do not have the tools to look any further back than just before the big bang.

Too late to do a proper edit, but that should be just AFTER the big bang. sorry about that.....

 

[WalterTrull]

bib bang

Oh, someone cleverer and more humorous than I... please!

 

[Milton Platt]

Oh, someone cleverer and more humorous than I... please!

Not clever or humorous....just a ****-poor typist.