Did the ''Big Bang'' create time and space or...?

[Deidre]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

 

[Desert Snake]

Big bang is just a theory. I don't subscribe to it.

My usual comment is that if you are attached to the big bang theory, go with multiple or mini bangs.

RAMEN

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

Time and Space (or more properly, the space-time that is our 'universe') IS the "Big Bang."

People of a theistic bent say that God caused the universe. Those of an atheistic bent say that the universe came to be by natural means. Those of an agnostic bent on the question would rather wait for further evidence that might explain our observations, and in the meantime, say "We don't know, but I'm sure glad some people are trying to collect data and create models that would explain our observations and figure out ways to testing the different alternatives without resorting to We Don't Know Yet, Therefore God Did It and other such nonsense."

 

[Brickjectivity]

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

It could be uncaused but maybe not.

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

The Big Bang is unrelated to that idea. It can't comment about why space has appeared and expanded. Its just a Physics model, and its mostly useful for studying the material world. The 'Why' and the 'How' are unanswered.

 

[Polymath257]

The quick answer is that we don't know.

As we go back closer to the Big Bang, the energy levels go up rapidly. At this point, we have tested energy levels corresponding to times after about a millisecond into the expansion. Before that, it is speculation.

If you go with General Relativity, which is the underlying theory for the Big Bang, time and space began at what is known as the Big Bang. Technically, there is not a Big Bang event, but rather only times *after*. The 'singularity' you will read about is simply saying that time and space cannot be extended back any further *in that description*.

Now, we know that General Relativity is not a complete description: it does not take into consideration Quantum Mechanics. At *very* early times, the effects of quantum gravity become significant and can 'smooth out' the singularity that exists in GR. That allows for the possibility of a 'before' the expansion started.

Unfortunately, we do not have a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have some contenders, but we simply have not found enough evidence to tell which, if any, are correct.

Some of these *extensions* of the BB scenario have a previous contracting universe before ours. Some have a multiverse with universes like our 'budding off'. Some have sheetlike 'branes' that collide producing universes like ours. Some have a cyclic aspect, as you were commenting.

Most of these hypotheses have time and space as 'eternal', meaning there is no beginning for either. For example, in the cyclic case, there simply would be no 'first' cycle.

Causality is another tricky concept. Quantum mechanics is NOT a causal description of the universe. It is inherently probabilistic and allows for 'spontaneous' production of matter and anti-matter out of a vacuum (by the way, this has been verified experimentally). What happens at the energies appropriate for quantum gravity is simply not known.

So, to summarize, it is possible that there was a 'before' the BB. It is possible there was not. It is likely that some sort of non-causal processes are involved no matter what.

 

[Polymath257]

Time and Space (or more properly, the space-time that is our 'universe') IS the "Big Bang."

People of a theistic bent say that God caused the universe. Those of an atheistic bent say that the universe came to be by natural means. Those of an agnostic bent on the question would rather wait for further evidence that might explain our observations, and in the meantime, say "We don't know, but I'm sure glad some people are trying to collect data and create models that would explain our observations and figure out ways to testing the different alternatives without resorting to We Don't Know Yet, Therefore God Did It and other such nonsense."

One aspect of this is that modern cosmology sees space and time together as a single geometry for spacetime. if we regard ALL of space and time as a unit, that structure 'just is'. it makes little sense to talk about a 'cause' because causality is part of the universe, not outside of it.

 

[Milton Platt]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

The answer is that nobody knows and perhaps nobody will ever know. How do you know that there was a first event?

 

[Spiderman]

I'm just happy to see you thinking about such things Dee. Keep seeking the truth. You will find it eventually. Where did the energy to create the bang come from? How did apes become human beings that can land on the moon. Apes never invent anything new no matter how much time goes by. Apes aren't still evolving into humans. There is no evidence of it. There was more than a big bang. Besides Deidre, you are too beautiful to have evolved from an ape you are the work of an artist.

 

[Deidre]

One aspect of this is that modern cosmology sees space and time together as a single geometry for spacetime. if we regard ALL of space and time as a unit, that structure 'just is'. it makes little sense to talk about a 'cause' because causality is part of the universe, not outside of it.

Okay, that's true, but maybe this isn't the first universe. I've been reading about this, not just thinking it up. lol

Anyways, here's an article about some of this.

Before Big Bang: Scientists discover what existed BEFORE the beginning of the universe

 

[Deidre]

I'm just happy to see you thinking about such things Dee. Keep seeking the truth. You will find it eventually. Where did the energy to create the bang come from? How did apes become human beings that can land on the moon. Apes never invent anything new no matter how much time goes by. Apes aren't still evolving into humans. There is no evidence of it. There was more than a big bang. Besides Deidre, you are too beautiful to have evolved from an ape you are the work of an artist.

lol That's so funny, I thought of the same thing, about the energy that preceded the BB. Energy can't be created nor destroyed, so...it's all so incredibly cosmic.

 

[DavidFirth]

Big bang is just a theory. I don't subscribe to it.

My usual comment is that if you are attached to the big bang theory, go with multiple or mini bangs.

RAMEN

The important thing to remember is that the Big Bang is just a theory. I don't subscribe to it, either.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Big bang is just a theory. I don't subscribe to it.

My usual comment is that if you are attached to the big bang theory, go with multiple or mini bangs.

RAMEN

 

[SalixIncendium]

The important thing to remember is that the Big Bang is just a theory. I don't subscribe to it, either.

 

[sayak83]

...or did time and space exist, before the Big Bang? What existed before the Big Bang? I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

And I'm not really going down the 'God of the gaps' avenue, rather I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang? I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

I'm just imagining...a beginning before a beginning. Could that be?

Speculative ideas that might be right

http://gizmodo.com/what-was-our-universe-like-before-the-big-bang-1791889926

 

[VioletVortex]

I don't see how time and space could have a definite origin, as the mechanics of the universe are based around the order set by time and space. This is where Chaosophy is rooted, however if the realm of Chaos were to be devoid of all time and space, it would never be able to bias itself towards such an order.

 

[sayak83]

The quick answer is that we don't know.

As we go back closer to the Big Bang, the energy levels go up rapidly. At this point, we have tested energy levels corresponding to times after about a millisecond into the expansion. Before that, it is speculation.

If you go with General Relativity, which is the underlying theory for the Big Bang, time and space began at what is known as the Big Bang. Technically, there is not a Big Bang event, but rather only times *after*. The 'singularity' you will read about is simply saying that time and space cannot be extended back any further *in that description*.

Now, we know that General Relativity is not a complete description: it does not take into consideration Quantum Mechanics. At *very* early times, the effects of quantum gravity become significant and can 'smooth out' the singularity that exists in GR. That allows for the possibility of a 'before' the expansion started.

Unfortunately, we do not have a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have some contenders, but we simply have not found enough evidence to tell which, if any, are correct.

Some of these *extensions* of the BB scenario have a previous contracting universe before ours. Some have a multiverse with universes like our 'budding off'. Some have sheetlike 'branes' that collide producing universes like ours. Some have a cyclic aspect, as you were commenting.

Most of these hypotheses have time and space as 'eternal', meaning there is no beginning for either. For example, in the cyclic case, there simply would be no 'first' cycle.

Causality is another tricky concept. Quantum mechanics is NOT a causal description of the universe. It is inherently probabilistic and allows for 'spontaneous' production of matter and anti-matter out of a vacuum (by the way, this has been verified experimentally). What happens at the energies appropriate for quantum gravity is simply not known.

So, to summarize, it is possible that there was a 'before' the BB. It is possible there was not. It is likely that some sort of non-causal processes are involved no matter what.

Speaking of.. here is a fascinating article that says that in future methods of strong theory and LQG may be combined. I did not understand all of it. Maybe you can do a commentary?

String Theory Meets Loop Quantum Gravity | Quanta Magazine

 

[sun rise]

Since this is in the philosophy area not science, for really mind-blowing timelines look at the Hindu system where The lifespan of Brahma is 100 Brahma years, or 72,000 kalpas, or 311,040,000,000,000 human years. That is 311 trillion years, much much more than the age of the universe. By the traditional viewpoint, we have been in the "Kali Yuga" or iron/dark age for all of recorded history and then some which means that all we've known for 432,000 years has been relative darkness.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I don't believe that the universe is ''uncaused.''

Maybe. But it is rather illuminating to view the universe from the non-causal vantage point.

 

[metis]

I've been reading that the universe came about as a ''cyclical event,'' but what prompted the very first event?

That's often referred to as the Big Crunch, and even though it's considered a hypothetical possibility by cosmologists, it doesn't seem likely because of the relative uniformity of the expansion after the BB..

I'm asking could something...anything...have been in existence before the Big Bang?

Likely, and most cosmologists now lean to us being a part of a multiverse. There are numerous theories on this, but all of them involve something being there. IOW, not likely there being no cause whatsoever.

 

[Deidre]

You guys are so smart. I'm glad I asked this here.