Two more words: you're wrong.
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Did Trump come from a monkey?
- Thread starter Kemosloby
- Start date
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Five words: They don't have opposable thumbs?
Drei worten: who are 'they'?
McBell
Admiral Obvious
um...
I am guessing he means the monkeys.
Of course, this guess is based on the sincere hope there is only one Donald Trump....
Old world monkeys have opposable thumbs, I believe.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Ok. Fair enough.Barbary apes, despite being called an ape, are a tailless monkey. In fact there are no traits unique to all apes which do not also appear in monkeys. Apes are a younger genus, true, but that doesn't change the 'we (and all extant apes) descended from extinct monkeys' is as accurate as saying 'we (and all extant apes) descended from extinct apes.' The simian ancestor to all apes and new world and old world monkeys (Anthropoidia) are themselves monkeys, and so are we. For the same reason that all birds are also dinosaurs, not a separate and detached line independent to dinosaurian lineage.
Monkey isn't a species, it isn't even a genus. It's not a taxonomic term at all. It's the common name to Platyrrhini, Catarhinni and Cercopithicoidea and a colloquial name given to their common ancestor (anthropoidia) and a common name which isn't consistent to all languages. (Once again 'monkey' in Latin is 'simian' which we and all of these clades belong to.) Since monkey can't have evolved independently twice, that means the common ancestor of all monkeys was from the same branch we descended from, making a common ancestor to us a monkey. (and us, too, but that's another time.)
It's not like that at all. The species that lesser and greater apes branched off from was indisputably a monkey (Catarrhini) basal to both 'old world monkeys' and 'apes,' and that family is much more recent than 'new world monkeys' and look nothing like rats or chipmunks.
Evolution doesn't teach the use of 'monkey' as anything but common name colloquialism, and isn't a part of taxon. Which is good because, as I said, many languages don't have the division between 'apes' and 'monkeys' that we do, and thus wouldn't get their panties in a twist about referring to humans as monkeys, as it's the same thing.
I really recommend you watch the video I posted earlier as it does an excellent job at breaking down why the distinction is made and where it shouldn't be. Even explains that plenty of institutions have already changed how the term 'monkey' is used.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Yes...
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
as did you.......
Well, for sure he is an ape, like all of us. A great ape, to be exact. I am sure he would agree, on account of the "great" adjective.
Ciao
- viole
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yup.Embarrassing ...
A little about AronRa, (real name, L. Aron Nelson) the video's creator. He is
"Texas State Director of American Atheists
Freethought contributor to the Global Secular Council
Host of the Ra-Men podcast
Author of the Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism
Producer of the Living Science lessons channel"
Freethought contributor to the Global Secular Council
Host of the Ra-Men podcast
Author of the Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism
Producer of the Living Science lessons channel"
I did a fairly extensive search for his educational background and came up near empty---he is said to have been "a paleontology student from Dallas"*---leading me to believe that, at most, he has a high school diploma.
*source
.
.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Ape forelimbs are appreciably longer than their hind limbs, which is not true of monkey limbs.
The ape chest is barrel shaped rather than flattened side-to-side as in monkeys.
The ape wrist is constructed so as to permit considerable mobility. The monkey wrist is not.
Ape nostrils are close set (the columella is quite narrow) and face downward. Those of monkeys are/do not.
The cheek teeth of apes are crowned with conical bumps, whereas these teeth in monkeys are made up of ridges.
And just to be clear: Apes don't have a tail. Except for the Barbary ape (Barbary macaque) and the Sulawesi crested macaque, all monkeys do.
As for the rest of your post, I've come to the conclusion that you're simply trolling, and while I regret taking the time to list the differences above, I've decided to let them stand in case anyone is taking your claim seriously. I've also decided to re-post this informative graphic.The ape chest is barrel shaped rather than flattened side-to-side as in monkeys.
The ape wrist is constructed so as to permit considerable mobility. The monkey wrist is not.
Ape nostrils are close set (the columella is quite narrow) and face downward. Those of monkeys are/do not.
The cheek teeth of apes are crowned with conical bumps, whereas these teeth in monkeys are made up of ridges.
And just to be clear: Apes don't have a tail. Except for the Barbary ape (Barbary macaque) and the Sulawesi crested macaque, all monkeys do.
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I'm not trolling, this is a legitimate discussion in current evolutionary biology, and some universities have already changed their curriculum to remove Linnean style grouping such as the beginning of your post, which has scores of exceptions. Such as equal length late hominid limbs or longer armed archaeoindris, which also have barrel chests [and yes I'm using lemur examples because nobody uses posimian as a taxonomic terms and lemurs are, in fact, simiioformes like the rest.], as well as extinct macaques and extinct lesser apes put in those categories but do not conform to the often arbitrary morphological categories of Linnean nested hierarchy.Ape forelimbs are appreciably longer than their hind limbs, which is not true of monkey limbs.As for the rest of your post, I've come to the conclusion that you're simply trolling, and while I regret taking the time to list the differences above, I've decided to let them stand in case anyone is taking your claim seriously. I've also decided to re-post this informative graphic.
The ape chest is barrel shaped rather than flattened side-to-side as in monkeys.
The ape wrist is constructed so as to permit considerable mobility. The monkey wrist is not.
Ape nostrils are close set (the columella is quite narrow) and face downward. Those of monkeys are/do not.
The cheek teeth of apes are crowned with conical bumps, whereas these teeth in monkeys are made up of ridges.
And just to be clear: Apes don't have a tail. Except for the Barbary ape (Barbary macaque) and the Sulawesi crested macaque, all monkeys do.
.
Like I said, the video goes into more detail than I can but challenging the discriminatory usage of the term monkey isn't new (just like the usage of prosimian) I really do think eventually saying 'humans are monkeys and evolved from them' will be no more eyebrow raising than saying 'birds are dinosaurs and evolved from them'
You mean recently?
AndromedaRXJ
Active Member
We're still monkeys, so yeah. Trump came from his parents, who are monkeys.
Trump is POTUS.
Get over it.
Get used to it.
Wonder if all those Hollywood types that promised to leave this country have left yet?
You know...... THIS country that let them get rich using only questionable talent.
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya."
We endured the embarrassment of Nixon; " I am not a crook. " and the
lies of Clinton; " I did not have sex with ...................." and survived.
Get over it.
Get used to it.
Wonder if all those Hollywood types that promised to leave this country have left yet?
You know...... THIS country that let them get rich using only questionable talent.
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya."
We endured the embarrassment of Nixon; " I am not a crook. " and the
lies of Clinton; " I did not have sex with ...................." and survived.
AndromedaRXJ
Active Member
Yup.
A little about AronRa, (real name, L. Aron Nelson) the video's creator. He is
More biography HERE ."Texas State Director of American Atheists
Freethought contributor to the Global Secular Council
Host of the Ra-Men podcast
Author of the Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism
Producer of the Living Science lessons channel"
I did a fairly extensive search for his educational background and came up near empty---he is said to have been "a paleontology student from Dallas"*---leading me to believe that, at most, he has a high school diploma.
*source
.
.
That is a very unfair dismissal of someone just because he lacks the right piece of paper. His education background/history really shouldn't matter when he cites everything he says in his video with proper academic sources. You don't need a degree to have a sound argument.
Fact: Many institutions do indeed adopt a more strict cladistic world view, mainly because it's far less arbitrary than traditional Linnaean taxonomy.
Fact: The distinction to "monkey" and "ape" is only found in the English language. Therefore the distinction is not of biological convention, but of English-speaking convention.
His argument is sound, regardless of his formal (or lack there of) education. I mean geez, if people with college degrees are the only people allowed to have a sound argument, than what's the point of being on this forum trying to explain Evolution to people? This type of attitude is gonna make people not want to learn science and turn away from it, which is already a huge problem in our society. We live in the information age. It's rather very easy to self-education, cite sources properly, and back up an argument without a degree.
Another Note: AronRa is well respected by the likes of Dawkins and other formally educated biologists. But I don't think that matters as much as it sounds. Just something I'm throwing out there.
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Definitely. People shouldn't go around and making a monkey out of the subject.