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Difference in moral thought between atheists and believers

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That's what people say.

I think the claim that the Bible is God's word is nothing more than a personal religious belief that is often stated as if it were an absolute fact.

Each have their own authority, so there's no one true God, no absolute morality.

Speaking as a former Christian, I've learned that I don't need to believe in the biblical God (or any gods) in order to make moral decisions and be a good person. I don't want to derail the thread with an off-topic discussion, so I'll post a link to a previous post where I shared my story. You can read it here.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think the claim that the Bible is God's word is nothing more than a personal religious belief that is often stated as if it were an absolute fact.
It is a meme for sure, as if saying the "Bible is God's Word" is factual and definitive as a statement. When I see someone write this I see them desperate in their own thinking and need to remind themselves that this is what the Bible "is".

What's odd is that many believers find themselves in a sort of debate crisis and fall back on comforting memes that won't stand up to critque.
Speaking as a former Christian, I've learned that I don't need to believe in the biblical God (or any gods) in order to make moral decisions and be a good person. I don't want to derail the thread with an off-topic discussion, so I'll post a link to a previous post where I shared my story. You can read it here.
You have an interesting story, and illuminating.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Quite true. Human morality has compassion on the sick, the weak, the old... Nature wants them dead.
That's not limited to humans.
Nature ain't so simple.
Compassion exists in many social animals.
Examples are even broader than those given in....
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Could you please provide the verse number for that?
I think I'll just suggest you actually learn about Islam from real sources rather than whatever biased stuff you go from. I've not been a Muslim, but I assume it's as equally wrong when an atheist tries to attack Christianity but ends up posting something that was obviously googled and not within proper context or reflecting how a passage is understood.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If that’s what their God instructs them to do, killing innocent people then I’m sure their God would be pleased.

Deuteronomy 20​

When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.​

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 1


Kill anything that breathes. Women, women with unborn children, old people, pets, babies.........that is what your God instructs people to do .
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The Bible is God’s word.

I can’t speak for other religions.
Prove the Bible is Gods words.
And why does that God like to use older myths from Mesopotamia, act exactly like all Near Eastern deities of that time? Then later use theology from other religions who just happened to occupy Israel like the Persians and Greeks?

Why does your "god" think non-Hebrews should be permanent slaves, have no rights and their children are inherited as permanent slaves?
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Prove the Bible is Gods words.
And why does that God like to use older myths from Mesopotamia, act exactly like all Near Eastern deities of that time? Then later use theology from other religions who just happened to occupy Israel like the Persians and Greeks?

Why does your "god" think non-Hebrews should be permanent slaves, have no rights and their children are inherited as permanent slaves?
I’m not here to prove anything to you or to convince you of anything.

Your salvation means nothing to me.

If you would like to ask me about God and what it’s like to walk with God I am more than happy to spend time talking about it but you obviously have no interest outside of arguing and I have better things to do.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member

Deuteronomy 20​

When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.​

If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 1


Kill anything that breathes. Women, women with unborn children, old people, pets, babies.........that is what your God instructs people to do .
Sounds like what the US did in WW2 doesn’t it?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sounds like what the US did in WW2 doesn’t it?
Are you crediting God with the allies winning WW2? I see no reason to invoke the supernatural when a perfectly natural explanation works. I'm not a war buff but I seem to remember the following:
1. The US and Britain had outstanding generals that effected amazing victories, such as Normandy.
2. The French resistance was legendary.
3. The Germans met their match in the Russians, who turned out to be invincible when their own homeland was invaded.
4. Hitler insanely devoted his resources to the destruction of the Jews at the expense of the war effort, leading even his own generals to try to assassinate him.
4. The US developed and twice dropped the atom bomb, utterly bringing the Japanese to their knees.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well morality does not actually exist in the world, neither do ethics or values.
That's only partially correct. We're born with certain moral instincts: dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. (I outlined one of the experiments showing this >here<.) The rest of our morality is learnt, not least by acculturation ─ how to meet with family, with relatives, with friends, with others; with those who are older or younger or the same age; with authority figures (teachers, doctors, police &c); the observation of life moments, such as coming of age, pairing, birth, and death; and so on. You'll notice that our inborn tendencies are capable of conflict eg fairness v respect for authority; and that the bearing these tendencies have on actual conduct varies with individuals.

You'll notice that the inborn ones are appropriate for living in a community, we humans being gregarious mammals who benefit greatly from working cooperatively.

Atheists inherently have nothing to follow until they make it up. This is why we see their morality fluctuate all the time.
See above.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Are you crediting God with the allies winning WW2? I see no reason to invoke the supernatural when a perfectly natural explanation works. I'm not a war buff but I seem to remember the following:
1. The US and Britain had outstanding generals that effected amazing victories, such as Normandy.
2. The French resistance was legendary.
3. The Germans met their match in the Russians, who turned out to be invincible when their own homeland was invaded.
4. Hitler insanely devoted his resources to the destruction of the Jews at the expense of the war effort, leading even his own generals to try to assassinate him.
4. The US developed and twice dropped the atom bomb, utterly bringing the Japanese to their knees.
I was referring to the allies use of firebombing cities for the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible including women, children and yes, even their pets.

Not to mention the nukes that were dropped.

So it seems God doesn’t have a monopoly on killing during war.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Are you crediting God with the allies winning WW2? I see no reason to invoke the supernatural when a perfectly natural explanation works. I'm not a war buff but I seem to remember the following:
1. The US and Britain had outstanding generals that effected amazing victories, such as Normandy.
2. The French resistance was legendary.
3. The Germans met their match in the Russians, who turned out to be invincible when their own homeland was invaded.
4. Hitler insanely devoted his resources to the destruction of the Jews at the expense of the war effort, leading even his own generals to try to assassinate him.
4. The US developed and twice dropped the atom bomb, utterly bringing the Japanese to their knees.
The Japanese were already on their knees.

The US could have simply blockaded them until they gave up but they really, really wanted to test their new toys in a real scenario.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Japanese were already on their knees.

The US could have simply blockaded them until they gave up but they really, really wanted to test their new toys in a real scenario.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I cannot agree with this. Be well.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was referring to the allies use of firebombing cities for the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible including women, children and yes, even their pets.

Not to mention the nukes that were dropped.
You may be familiar with the maths that went into dropping the atom bomb? The alternative to Japanese surrender was invasion of Japan. Estimates varied, but one pointed to more than a million US casualties if Japan was invaded.

Which decision would you make if you were in Truman's shoes? Use the bomb? Not use the bomb?

How many US casualties do you think would be acceptable before deciding to use the atom bomb?

So it seems God doesn’t have a monopoly on killing during war.
Well, God was on both sides in the European sphere, both with WW1, and WW2 which then includes Russia.

God clearly decided to do nothing and to let the casualties be what they'll be.

Was that the correct decision on God's part, do you think?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
You may be familiar with the maths that went into dropping the atom bomb? The alternative to Japanese surrender was invasion of Japan. Estimates varied, but one pointed to more than a million US casualties if Japan was invaded.

Which decision would you make if you were in Truman's shoes? Use the bomb? Not use the bomb?
That logic may justify Hiroshima, but it doesn't justify Nagasaki. Peace talks were already under way at that time, but Truman wanted unconditional surrender, not a treaty.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That logic may justify Hiroshima, but it doesn't justify Nagasaki. Peace talks were already under way at that time, but Truman wanted unconditional surrender, not a treaty.
You're right that diplomatic contact between Tokyo and Washington had already begun on the topic of peace talks, but the US had demanded unconditional surrender or nothing. Tokyo replied that they would end the war subject to conditions. The US rejected that offer. That was the situation when Hiroshima was bombed August 6. Meanwhile Russia, well aware of the erosion of Japanese military power 1944-45, had been looking for a suitable moment to declare war on Japan and invade Manchuria, Thus when news of the Hiroshima bomb broke, within 24 hours or so Russia declared war on Japan and, already poised, a few hours later invaded Manchuria. This was one part of the reason that in Japan it proved impossible to set up a government meeting in less than two days. At that meeting the plan then approved was to accept the US offer subject to fewer conditions than previously but not the unconditional surrender demanded, though in effect they would take what they could get. Nothing in that situation changed, nor was there any communication with the US, before the Nagasaki bomb was dropped on August 9.

So as I understand it, nothing relevant really changed between August 6 and August 9; rather, from the US point of view, Japan had made no response following Hiroshima.
 
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