Different God or Different Conception of God

[Vinayaka]

I jump back and forth between these two concepts, and perhaps it matters not, although I suspect on some level it will matter a lot to some people so inclined. I'm more curious to what others think than I am attached to it either way.

An analogy ...
My friend Ravi is a devotee at the local temple. The people there know him as a regular devotee, a guy who helps out with the priests, is willing to volunteer, is good humoured, and sincere in worship. Beyond that they don't know much. They know he lives somewhere in this city, and is a doctor of some sort.

- At work my friend Ravi is known as Dr. Ravi, he's a gastroenterologist, has great bedside manner, keeps up to date on the latest medications available, and gets along with secretaries, nurses, and other doctors. Beyond that, they know he is a Hindu because it slipped one day, and he lives somewhere in the city.

- At home Ravi's neighbour knows him as the guy who is a bit late in getting his lawn cut or shoveling the sidewalk, but he's quiet, and likes to chit chat across the back fence on occasion. He drives a Mercedes and has two kids. Beyond that, neighbours don't know where he works, or if he's religious.

So ... Ravi is still Ravi, regardless of all the differing viewpoints of him. He doesn't become a new person each time he plays a new role in life.

So ... which is it? Different God, or different understanding of God? Clearly if it is a different God, then its also a different understanding of God. But does the different understanding necessarily mean that its also a different God?

Thoughts?

 

[Vinayaka]

I was just curious as to what other Hindus thought, so I put it in the Hindu DIR. There is another similar thread here that might be better for non-Hindu opinions.

Do the Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God....?

 

[Jainarayan]

This is a good one. I have some thoughts, but given the lateness of the hour I couldn't do it justice. I'll take a whack at it tomorrow.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ask a Christian or a Muslim if Rama is his God. He is not. Therefore, there are different Gods. My Gods and Goddesses are my own and differ from that of Christians or Muslims. Jesus is not Rama's son. His sons are Lav and Kush.
Some things do not mix well. It is a 'Vyavaharika Satya'.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ask a Christian or a Muslim if Rama is his God. He is not. Therefore, there are different Gods. My Gods and Goddesses are my own and differ from that of Christians or Muslims. Jesus is not Rama's son. His sons are Lav and Kush.
Some things do not mix well. It is a 'Vyavaharika Satya'.

But how exactly are you convinced they are actually different, rather than its just a very different understanding? (That part I acknowledge, and I certainly have it too) Have you seen them?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You know, I see it everywhere, every moment. Nothing exists which is other than it. I am it. You too are it. Sure, that is 'Parmarthika'.

 

[Quintessence]

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[Jainarayan]

I have thought about this a lot over the years... maybe more than I need to or is beneficial for me. At any rate, I don't think there are different Gods, i.e. the Supreme Being. If there are multiples, they ain't so supreme, is they? Are Vishnu and Yahweh the same? Are Shiva and Allah the same? To me, no. To me Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah are regional gods elevated by their followers to a supreme position. As a side note, I believe there are different gods, e.g. the devas, the Greek, Norse, Roman, Yoruba, Egyptian, Chinese, etc. pantheons. But they are not the supreme, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God. I'd rather not think about omnipresence anyway... it creeps me out to think someone is watching me in the shower.

If I were to go out on a limb and concede that they are all the same God, why the Jekyll-and-Hyde personalities we think of? Why do we think of the God of the Bible or Quran as a bloodthirsty psychopath? I don't think it's "God's fault", but the fault of God's followers and to a large extent, his detractors. If they want to see him as an angry, vengeful, petulant tyrant, that's on them. Because many, probably most, Christians and Muslims see God as a loving, gentle fatherly or motherly figure. Not unlike how Hindus see God. We see God in our own ways, in ways meaningful to us for whatever personal reasons we have.

I don't think it's God who changes or has Multiple Personality Disorder, but rather it's we humans with our limited sight and understanding that think they are different Gods. Worse yet is when human writers ascribe characteristics to God that I don't think he possesses, e.g. that vengeful, wrathful personality. It seems to me that the Supreme God has gotten dirtied by the antics of some lesser gods... guilty by association. If God does get cheesed off, it's on a cosmic scale, not directed at pockets of desert dwellers who won't yield their land to invaders and interlopers.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks, Jai, for your insightful answer. I think I'm just trying to get consistency in my thinking. I almost asked my Guru for an explanation, but other far more important things came up during that recent darshan meeting. My sampradaya's official stance is that its the same God, differing understandings. But if asked by a non-Hindu, I'd like to use a standard answer, and of course I have the right to disagree from sampradaya so long as its just a rather trivial thing like this.

I think most Hindus, within Hinduism, do see the Supreme God as the same, with differing names, and perhaps slightly differing understandings. That much I handle with ease. It's just when I hear that a certain God is sending me to hell forever, and my God loves the person who says that, when I start thinking, 'Nah, can't possibly be the same God we're talking about.'

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks, Jai, for your insightful answer. I think I'm just trying to get consistency in my thinking.

Achieving that puts a lot of intellectual conflict to rest, dun't it? It took me a long time to arrive at my conclusion and belief. Is it right? Well, for me it is.

My sampradaya's official stance is that its the same God, differing understandings. But if asked by a non-Hindu, I'd like to use a standard answer

I typically quote the Rig Veda 1.164.46: ekaṃ sadviprā bahudhā vadanti, "one truth the wise know by many names". If the Rig Veda is as eternal and authoritative as we believe it is, then it must mean more than the few deities it mentions in that verse:

They called him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni; yea, he is heavenly Garuḍa, who has beautiful wings.
That which is One, the sages call by many names; they called him Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan.

I don't believe it is saying all religions are the same. It names deities, not religions. Not the same thing. I disagree with those who use the verse to support the argument that all religions are the same. But the One Truth? Yes, only One Truth known by... (ok, we established that ).

I think most Hindus, within Hinduism, do see the Supreme God as the same, with differing names, and perhaps slightly differing understandings. That much I handle with ease.

Agreed. When I talk to people at temple, they almost never use a specific deity's name. They say "he", "him", "God". It's possible because there are so many people who have different ishtas, it's sort of like using English as a common language.

It's just when I hear that a certain God is sending me to hell forever, and my God loves the person who says that, when I start thinking, 'Nah, can't possibly be the same God we're talking about.'

I categorically reject that temper tantrum-throwing deity. It simply doesn't make sense for me to worship that. Yet such a deity is not without precedent. Some pagan gods and goddesses can be very fickle and downright nasty and demanding. Some people like to be controlled.

 

[Vinayaka]

Off topic, but from another thread ... where you were wondering about a priest from your temple ... it seems that one of the priests for the new Venkateswara temple in Austin is from your temple, could be the same guy you were talking about ... they do move around a lot, and they have their own gossip vine, or so I've heard.

 

[Jainarayan]

I wonder who it is. There are a few that have left in the past few years. There are also about half that have been there for a long time. Maybe there will be pics of the new temple and the priests.

Edit:

Yep, that's him. Sri Venkateswara Temple of Austin » Priest Services He must have shaved his beard and head at one time. When I knew him his beard was quite thick and he wore his hair matted. He's the one who told me his little boy referred to me as 'tata" (sp?), grandfather (thanks, kid!).

 

[Vinayaka]

Road trip!

Actually I have a very close family friend in Austin, and South Texas area has a lot of temples. One in Temple, of all places. Imagine that. Anyone been to the Temple temple?

 

[Jainarayan]

Road trip!

For sure! He'd probably remember me too. Though I didn't have my beard back then. Still, a short "husky" white guy with a shaved head does stand out among a population of Indians.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I think it has to be "different conceptions of god" because even within Hinduism devotees chose (or are chosen by) representations of God that display vastly different qualities. Kali Maa and Rama (though they be ultimately the same at source) reflect back different ideas about how divinity functions or is personified. We do this with every day people as well, such as in your example, @Vinayaka . There is a reason you gravitate toward Lord Murugan and not Lakshmi Narayan, and I imagine it has nothing to do with thinking less of God in that form but rather your conception of what God is and does.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is a reason you gravitate toward Lord Murugan and not Lakshmi Narayan, and I imagine it has nothing to do with thinking less of God in that form but rather your conception of what God is and does.

Actually for me, its not a matter of thinking about it and matching it to something, but much more 'in the gut' or what drew me in the first place. It's intuition carrying out stuff from past lives, I think. From what I've read from you, its also true to a large extent about some 'unexplainable' draw, for you to Lakshmi.

It would be like lining up the Gods, like a row of pictures, or watching pujas to various Gods, and then saying, 'Well, which one do you like?"

 

[Shantanu]

I jump back and forth between these two concepts, and perhaps it matters not, although I suspect on some level it will matter a lot to some people so inclined. I'm more curious to what others think than I am attached to it either way.

An analogy ...
My friend Ravi is a devotee at the local temple. The people there know him as a regular devotee, a guy who helps out with the priests, is willing to volunteer, is good humoured, and sincere in worship. Beyond that they don't know much. They know he lives somewhere in this city, and is a doctor of some sort.

- At work my friend Ravi is known as Dr. Ravi, he's a gastroenterologist, has great bedside manner, keeps up to date on the latest medications available, and gets along with secretaries, nurses, and other doctors. Beyond that, they know he is a Hindu because it slipped one day, and he lives somewhere in the city.

- At home Ravi's neighbour knows him as the guy who is a bit late in getting his lawn cut or shoveling the sidewalk, but he's quiet, and likes to chit chat across the back fence on occasion. He drives a Mercedes and has two kids. Beyond that, neighbours don't know where he works, or if he's religious.

So ... Ravi is still Ravi, regardless of all the differing viewpoints of him. He doesn't become a new person each time he plays a new role in life.

So ... which is it? Different God, or different understanding of God? Clearly if it is a different God, then its also a different understanding of God. But does the different understanding necessarily mean that its also a different God?

Thoughts?

As long as there are different heads there will be different conceptions of God.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

...It's just when I hear that a certain God is sending me to hell forever, and my God loves the person who says that, when I start thinking, 'Nah, can't possibly be the same God we're talking about.'

Neither of you are necessarily talking about a different God, Vinayakaji. The distinction you are pointing out is between the two speakers' experience and therefore knowledge of the nature of God. Has to be so. As you clearly note elsewhere, you are in possession of the knowledge that OneGod alone is (as well as many fundamentals of Its Essence. Jai! ) The other talker in that "dialogue" lacks that experience and hence the knowledge gained thereby. Unless we are able to gift someone in that condition with the knowledge, at a minimum we should probably peg our judgment meter somewhere near "compassionate neutral witness."

 

[Vinayaka]

I will have to restrain from using 'My friend Ravi' as an analogy or as an example. I have no friend Ravi, and I apologise for any confusion this has caused people.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. they do move around a lot, and they have their own gossip vine, or so I've heard.

Yeah, that is true and helps when one wants a nephew in India to come over. How much clientele, business, Dhanda, Yajamani, is available at any place.

There is a reason you gravitate toward Lord Murugan and not Lakshmi Narayan, ..

Guna prakriti, inclination, I suppose. That is how Lord Rama suits me the best, gentle, dutiful. My idol.

It would be like lining up the Gods, like a row of pictures, or watching pujas to various Gods, and then saying, 'Well, which one do you like?"

I think we do that. At least the Hindus do, we have the choice which the Christianity and Islam do not have.