Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

[InvestigateTruth]

When we look at various major Religions, we find that, always there are disagreements if a Leader is truly chosen by God or not.
For example, Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view, who believed Jesus was the true Messiah.
Likewise, Muslims believe Muhammad was a promised One by Jesus but Christians do not see it that way.
Same disagreements are seen with regards to the Bab and Bahaullah, as the promised Ones of other Religions.
Even, within Islam, there was a disagreement between Sunnis and Shias about Ali, being the divinely chosen successor of Muhammad.

Now, those who are on the believer side, very often quote from Holy Books as an evidence.
For example, Muslims can quote from the Bible those verses regarding Muhammad as the promised one... likewise Christians quote from Jewish Scriptures to show how Jesus is that same Messiah.
Shias also quote from Quran to prove that Ali is chose by God.


Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

 

[Rival]

Because the so-called chosen person comes first and then people retcon the verses to fit this person because they don't want to drop their beliefs; while those of whom are more familiar with their own scriptures do not see the chosen person there, because he was retconned in by the new group. Hence why Jews don't see Jesus and Christians don't see Muhammad.

 

[sun rise]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person?

Much of humanity is still tribal. If one grows up as a member of a certain tribe or joins it afterwards, the tendency is to consider members of another tribe (religion) as being utterly wrong.

There are some who can hold the idea that the tribe they're a member of is most congenial for themselves without dismissing other tribes (religions).

 

[Earthling]

Because the so-called chosen person comes first and then people retcon the verses to fit this person because they don't want to drop their beliefs; while those of whom are more familiar with their own scriptures do not see the chosen person there, because he was retconned in. Hence why Jews don't see Jesus and Christians don't see Muhammad.

I don't think so, at least in the case of Christ. There were indisputable records that proved that Christ was Christ. The Jewish religious leaders of that time, the time when prophecy said he would come, were expecting someone, and couldn't deny the records. He just turned out to be something other than what they imagined. They expected a messiah as David had been, but Jesus was different.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

When we look at various major Religions, we find that, always there are disagreements if a Leader is truly chosen by God or not.
For example, Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view, who believed Jesus was the true Messiah.
Likewise, Muslims believe Muhammad was a promised One by Jesus but Christians do not see it that way.
Same disagreements are seen with regards to the Bab and Bahaullah, as the promised Ones of other Religions.
Even, within Islam, there was a disagreement between Sunnis and Shias about Ali, being the divinely chosen successor of Muhammad.

Now, those who are on the believer side, very often quote from Holy Books as an evidence.
For example, Muslims can quote from the Bible those verses regarding Muhammad as the promised one... likewise Christians quote from Jewish Scriptures to show how Jesus is that same Messiah.
Shias also quote from Quran to prove that Ali is chose by God.


Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

Good questions!

I can’t speak for other holy books, but the Bible gives us a reason why there are so many disagreements among people: because there is a Deceiver whose control is extensive (Revelation 12:9); in fact, Jesus called him the “ruler/prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30. Cf. 1 John 5:19). And he can affect people’s minds (2 Corinthians 4:4).

And the Bible further indicates that he enjoys controlling people in positions of power (Exodus 7:10-12). Fortunately, he’s not as powerful as God.

But here’s another issue: Luke 10:21 tells that it is Jesus’ Father, Jehovah God, who reveals His Word (the Bible, anyways)....we need His help to understand it. We can’t get it on our own.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

You could say that, but i can't say that.

Because in this world there will never be agreement, only disagreement.

Jesus said:

"From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’​

This scenario is baked in the cake. Because the wheat is growing WITH the tares until the end. And this deal is further exacerbated by the probability that the tares are overwhelmingly outnumbering the wheat. It's the narrow gate syndrome.

If the world hates the sheep, it's because they have not known the Sheppard. But fear not, He has overcome the world.

 

[1213]

...Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

There is probably always people wo don’t want to receive the message that is why disagreement will remain, even if the message would be absolutely clear.

 

[Rival]

There is probably always people wo don’t want to receive the message that is why disagreement will remain, even if the message would be absolutely clear.

I guess you just don't want to recieve Mohammad's message then?

 

[nPeace]

When we look at various major Religions, we find that, always there are disagreements if a Leader is truly chosen by God or not.
For example, Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view, who believed Jesus was the true Messiah.
Likewise, Muslims believe Muhammad was a promised One by Jesus but Christians do not see it that way.
Same disagreements are seen with regards to the Bab and Bahaullah, as the promised Ones of other Religions.
Even, within Islam, there was a disagreement between Sunnis and Shias about Ali, being the divinely chosen successor of Muhammad.

Now, those who are on the believer side, very often quote from Holy Books as an evidence.
For example, Muslims can quote from the Bible those verses regarding Muhammad as the promised one... likewise Christians quote from Jewish Scriptures to show how Jesus is that same Messiah.
Shias also quote from Quran to prove that Ali is chose by God.


Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

It makes sense to me that if I have an enemy that wanted to destroy my work, and success, that enemy can only act upon what I have done, but they can never erase what I have done.
In other words, they can only try to disfigure or hide what I started, or originated, but the original would always remain.

For example, if I did an original painting, and my enemy wanted to prevent my success, he may try to destroy, disfigure, or hide my work.
Depending on what he can succeed with, he will go for it, and in this illustration, he cannot destroy it. Let's give him a bit of advantage, and say he has a little success in slightly disfiguring it - nothing that can't be repaired.
The other thing is to try to hide it. This is done by creating imitations, making it hard to differentiate between the original, and the fakes.

So this is how I look at the situation.
What's the original?
The Torah, the Tanakh - What the Jews believed.

What followed?
The Christian Greek Scriptures - What Christians believed.

What next?
The Qur'an - What Muslim follow.
The Bab - What Bahai's believe.
The book of Mormon - What latter Day Saints follow.

What harmonizes?
The Christian Greek Scriptures follow on and seem to harmonize perfectly with the Tanakh.

The Qur'an does not claim to be a follow on from the Tanakh, but points to it as the word from God, and claims to be the word of God - better than the Tanakh, because it claims the Tanakh is corrupted, while the Qur'an is uncorrupted.
The Qur'an also in not a follow on from the Christian Greek Scriptures, nor claims to be, but makes similar claims as it does with the Tanakh.

As far as I know Bab and the Mormon Bible follows the Qur'an in similar claims.
They are in major conflict with the Christian Greek Scriptures on from the Tanakh which seens innharmony with the Tanakh.
I'm open to disagreements on this.

So in the end, this is the real deal... imo.
The problem does not lie with God - the artist of his original master piece. It was a good job.
God's enemy is trying to hide the truth, so he created a lot of imitations, and claims that one of them is the original. Or better yet, none of them is original. Either way suits him just fine

As the almighty, the time is not yet come for him to destroy his enemy - it will come, but in the meantime, God has been restoring the disfigurations done on the original - enough that his sincere "fans" can tell, it's his work. In other words, God has been actively involved in seeing to it that his masterpiece is not destroyed by the enemy.
God's "fans" are also able with determined and continuous study, to detect the differences between the original, and the imitations.
They are diligent, because it's important to them, so they don't give up.

So those who are truth seekers find it.
The key to me though, lies in being interested in identifying what was original, and what harmonizes with the original.
Originals don't follow fakes. It's the other way around.

 

[wizanda]

Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

The Bible was clear; yet cryptic on purpose, to make it only those who pay attention see it.

My analysis is that since the Gospel of John is made up; Muhammad was not foretold specifically as stated.

Yeshua is specifically by name stated to be the person he claimed to be in the Tanakh, people are just confounded by using the wrong name.

Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view

See this is a problem with many religious people's comprehension on analyzing others...

We judge a ton of presuppositions by a religious belief to be fact, instead of examining the data separately and see if there is merit in the claims.

So for example, Rabbinic Judaism's leaders are prophesied by the Tanakh to be misguided, as they're against the Lord a.k.a Yeshua...

Yet Yeshua would be against Christian views (John, Paul, Simon), as they're totally wrong compare to the prophets, defiling the Law in multiple places.

Each religion suits their own personal biases, so we have to judge it on what does it actually say, not what people believe it says. -

As ultimate truth can never exist in half answers.

why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person?

Because people don't exegete enough; it is possible to be more definitive, and with modern software we can examine the text in more detail.

So for example we can do simple objective word searches on Hebrew words like Salvation (Yeshua - H3444), and find heaps of prophetic understandings.

The idea that the Jews who claim to be so superior in scrutinizing grammar, overlook basic concepts like Yeshua is part of the problem...

Human nature doesn't always question for patterns outside of our existing pattern, as we are very community driven in reaffirming our beliefs.

In my opinion.

 

[Katzpur]

As far as I know Bab and the Mormon Bible follows the Qur'an in similar claims.
They are in major conflict with the Christian Greek Scriptures on from the Tanakh which seens innharmony with the Tanakh.
I'm open to disagreements on this.

The Book of Mormon in no way conflicts with the Bible (I'm assuming that when you say the "Christian Greek Scriptures," you are referring to the New Testament.) The New Testament is our sole source of information on Christ's ministry in the Holy Land and the teachings of His Apostles.

 

[nPeace]

The Book of Mormon in no way conflicts with the Bible (I'm assuming that when you say the "Christian Greek Scriptures," you are referring to the New Testament.) The New Testament is our sole source of information on Christ's ministry in the Holy Land and the teachings of His Apostles.

Thanks for contributing an argument against what I stated.
What you say there is a surprise to me though.

Are not most of these writings supposed to have been before Christ?
The ones claimed to have been written before the Messiah were:
Fourth Nephi - About a.d. 35–321.
The Book of Mormon - About a.d. 321–26.
The Words of Mormon - About a.d. 385
The Book of Moroni - About a.d. 401–21.

How is it that some of those writings are claimed to be before Christ, and yet

The New Testament is our sole source of information on Christ's ministry in the Holy Land and the teachings of His Apostles.

?

Here is one...
2 NEPHI
CHAPTER 31
Nephi tells why Christ was baptized —
Men must follow Christ, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end to be saved — Repentance and baptism are the gate to the strait and narrow path — Eternal life comes to those who keep the commandments after baptism. About 559–545 b.c.

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being a holy, should have need to be b baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be c baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy ? But notwithstanding he being holy,
he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he
humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be a obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the a form of a b dove.


I also found it interesting that one book - ETHER - claims this
The record of the Jaredites, taken from the twenty-four plates found by the people of Limhi in the days of King Mosiah.
CHAPTER 1
Moroni abridges the writings of Ether —
Ether’s genealogy is set forth — The language of the Jaredites is not confounded at the Tower of Babel — The Lord promises to lead them to a choice land and make them a great nation.

No date is given for this one. Interestingly, the only book not dated.

According to Genesis 11, Jehovah confused the language of all the earth.
There appears to be a conflict here, although there is a reason I can let it pass.
Moving on though...

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen
............
And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

MOSIAH 7 : 26-28
26 And a prophet of the Lord have they  slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.
27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the  image of man, and it should be the  image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth —
28 And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them...

MOSIAH 15 
CHAPTER 15
How Christ is both the Father and the Son — He will make intercession and bear the transgressions of His people — They and all the holy prophets are His seed — He brings to pass the Resurrection — Little children have eternal life.
About 148 b.c.

And now Abinadi said unto them:
I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son —
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son —
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

2 Nephi 31 : 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Mormon 7 : 7
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Alma 14 : 5
5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them — testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land

ALMA
Chapter 3
King Benjamin continues his address —
The Lord Omnipotent will minister among men in a tabernacle of clay — Blood will come from every pore as He atones for the sins of the world — His is the only name whereby salvation comes — Men can put off the natural man and become Saints through the Atonement — The torment of the wicked will be as a lake of fire and brimstone.
About 124 b.c.

ALMA 11 : 39–40
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very a Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

This seems just as confusing as the Trinity doctrine - which it obviously is.
Is this the teaching of LDS?

I find these do contradict the Bible.
Where does the Bible teach the Trinity - that Jesus is God the Father?
Where do you find that the Bible teaches that God came to earth to die?

At John 5 Jesus said
19 Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,
30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
36 I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.

Does this not teach that Jesus - a man on earth - depended on his father who dwells in heaven?
In the Bible, Jesus himself never claimed to be God of heaven and earth. Do you find that he did?

 

[nPeace]

@Katzpur
Does the Bible teach that persons have an immortal soul, which will be tormented eternally. Please could you point out where?

MOSIAH 2 : 34-38
34 I say unto you, that there are not any among you, except it be your little children that have not been taught concerning these things, but what knoweth that ye are eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are; and also have been taught concerning the records which contain the prophecies which have been spoken by the holy prophets, even down to the time our father, Lehi, left Jerusalem;
35 And also, all that has been spoken by our fathers until now. And behold, also, they spake that which was commanded them of the Lord; therefore, they are just and true.
36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved —
37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open  rebellion against God; therefore he  listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Mosiah 2 : 38
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

I have to do some more research into the book of Mormon, but that's another day.

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

They are not all books of God. Only the 66 books of the Bible is "of God." Christ said He did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword. That sword divides those who believe God concerning Jesus Christ His Son, from those who don't. He separates the wheat from the chaff. Christ said a man's enemies would be those of his own household. Believers will be persecuted and ill=treated by unbelievers and so it has been and still is today. This is God's design and it is infinitely wise and holy.

 

[Tumah]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

The question is not whether G-d can get His message clearly across. I've noted that people without a vested interest in a particular book, will generally agree with the interpretations of the group who brought the book to the table. We're not seeing a problem with the message of any given book. What we're seeing is that in every subsequent religion, people are putting their belief in a particular person or group of people and then adopting that person or group's re-interpretation, so that their view of the previous book is seen only through the lens of the new interpretation.
Try reading through a book without any preconceived knowledge from subsequent editions and see if you would naturally come to expect the following book or it's interpretations.

 

[wizanda]

Try reading through a book without any preconceived knowledge from subsequent editions and see if you would naturally come to expect the following book or it's interpretations.

Exactly my point; yet when Rabbinic Jews come to examine the NT, they often apply Christian (John, Paul, Simon) ideas to it first, rather than look at the data on its own without preconceived ideas.

The idea of naturally reading the Tanakh in Hebrew, and then ignoring the hundreds of points about our Elohim who saves (Yesha), is our salvation (Yeshua), etc, makes no sense to ignore someone coming with that same name, fulfilling prophecies, and we ignore the concept to match a preconceived notion of theology that doesn't match the Tanakh.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But there are evidences from these Holy Books, which tells us that the Author of these Holy Books which claims to be God, or inspirations from God have written some parts of the Book using metaphorical verses.

For example, in the Quran it is written:


"It is He who has sent down to you the Book. Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are metaphorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviance, they pursue what is metaphorical in it, courting temptation and courting its interpretation. But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.’ And none takes admonition except those who possess intellect." 3:7


Identical statements exist in Bible, where it is written that interpretations of the Prophecies must come from God.

I see that is exactly what has happened, when a new Manifestation or a chosen one claims to be the fulfilment of the prophecies.
The disagreements have been over those Prophetic verses. Those who believed that the new Manifestation fulfils the Prophecies, understand the Prophecies metaphorical or symbolic, whereas those who rejected the new Prophet, have seen the interpretations as completely new, or reinterpretations, which does not match with their traditional understanding.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Founder of Mormonism did not claim to be the fulfilment of prophecies. Muhammad claimed that Jesus had prophesied about Him. Likewise Jesus claimed that Moses had prophesied about Him. But did the Founder of Mormonism have similar claims?

 

[1213]

I guess you just don't want to recieve Mohammad's message then?

Quran says:

…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers.
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
http://quran.com/4/171

I have received that. Is there something that I have not received? Please tell what I have not received?

 

[Rival]

Quran says:

…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers.
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
http://quran.com/4/171

I have received that. Is there something that I have not received? Please tell what I have not received?

So why aren't you a Baha'i? You said that some people did not want to recieve the message and that is why they don't, so what is different about your refusal to accept the Baha'i faith? The message is clear, is it not? I'm just trying to illustrate how this reason is flawed and shallow.

There is probably always people wo don’t want to receive the message that is why disagreement will remain, even if the message would be absolutely clear.