Disbelief a sin; different perspective

[Unveiled Artist]

I wanted to take this question at a somewhat different angle. For those who believe disbelief is a sin, if a non-believer (any abrahamic this applies) is fulfilled in other aspects of his life his religion or moral lifestyle, what can he loose without god that would

1. Not be considered a sin
2. That is not based on your experience of what you found in god

Given if X amount of people believe disbelief is a sin, what is the justification of this IF the non-believer does not sin all of his life?

Murder is a sin because it takes a life god creates
Stealing is a sin because you are taking something you dont own
Sexual imorality is a sin because you are using your body in a manner that is not created for (abuse, melestation, etc. Not homosexuality)
Rejection of god is a sin because that is like disowning your parent

Disbelief does not have any of these traits. What makes it a sin according to your sacred text and why objectvely not according to your personal experience?

 

[Parsimony]

I've seen plenty of people equate disbelief in God with a rejecting of God, although I don't think I quite see it that way.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have a hunch that for many people disbelief is in some sense a bad example that contributes to harming the community.

The implication being that belief is not just an option or a right, but also somehow a duty that a good citizen will attempt to fulfill.

I suspect that such a feeling correlates strongly with the perception that a community of believers should cooperate and have good will among themselves. While that is certainly true, it may be misconstrued as justification for blaming non-believers.for problems real or perceived.

 

[Erebus]

I have a hunch that for many people disbelief is in some sense a bad example that contributes to harming the community.

The implication being that belief is not just an option or a right, but also somehow a duty that a good citizen will attempt to fulfill.

I suspect that such a feeling correlates strongly with the perception that a community of believers should cooperate and have good will among themselves. While that is certainly true, it may be misconstrued as justification for blaming non-believers.for problems real or perceived.

I'd agree with that. I'd also suggest that a lot of people who consider disbelief a sin also tend to believe that their god is ultimately the source of morality.

Therefore, to not believe in their god is to disregard the very foundation of what it is to be a good person.

In the most extreme examples, only those good deeds done in honour of a particular god can truly be considered good deeds at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've seen plenty of people equate disbelief in God with a rejecting of God, although I don't think I quite see it that way.

How do you see it as a christian?

 

[Tumah]

You have formulated your own understanding of why murder, stealing, etc are sins. But the Torah doesn't give these reasons. The reason why we must fulfill those commandments is because we were commanded to, not because of the reasons you gave. In that respect, the command to believe in G-d is just like any other: we have to believe in G-d because He commanded us to.

Additionally, without intent to fulfill a commandment of G-d (which is predicated on belief), there are many commandments that are not fulfilled by the simple doing of them.

 

[Parsimony]

How do you see it as a christian?

The difference I see between rejection of God and disbelief in God is that the former does not automatically imply that one disbelieves in God. In Christian thought, Satan knew that God existed for certain yet still chose to reject Him. Going along the same lines, I don't think disbelief in itself should be considered a sin (unless someone can provide some scripture that I may be overlooking). The problem would arise because a disbelieving person would not seek out forgiveness of their sins from a being that they do not believe exists. I think that's why it's seen as a problem in most forms of Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The problem would arise because a disbelieving person would not seek out forgiveness of their sins from a being that they do not believe exists. I think that's why it's seen as a problem in most forms of Christianity.

That's a good point (and I'd like to see scripture too). It's very unattractive to see Christianity view disbelief as a problem because the disbeliever does not seek forgiveness for their sins. I see many faiths that operate in the same manner of cleansing, forgiving, offerings, prayer, and the like in the same intent of forgiveness as a Christian to Christ. I kinda wish Christians can see that. However, that doesn't change Christian teaching.

Other than that, I also find it hard to hold it against an ex-christian for rejecting god. Why should a parent punish or disown his child because his child decides he doesn't love his parent anymore?

Another question, can you explain how that makes sense logically?

 

[leibowde84]

I've seen plenty of people equate disbelief in God with a rejecting of God, although I don't think I quite see it that way.

I think that would be a dishonest comparison, as one cannot "reject" God if one doesn't believe that God exists.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Parsimony , @leibowde84 , @Carlita

That is an interesting question to ask.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that Christian doctrine is basically correct, what does sincere disbelief entail when it comes to the need for forgiveness?

Some basic possibilities that occur to me include:


* There is no disbelief as such. All people are ultimately believers even if they explicitly deny it.

This seems to be a popular Muslim belief. It is somewhat more rare but by no means absent among Christians.


* God sees no need for all people to believe. Disbelievers are sinners just like anyone else, and their disbelief harms their chances of finding redemption.

A fairly typical Christian stance, far as I can tell.


* God sees no need for all people to believe. Disbelievers are somehow in less need of redemption than true believers would be.

I assume, but do not know, that many Christiians take this stance as well.


* Belief itself is a duty (at least for people who have learned of Jesus), and therefore disbelief in somehow inherently a sin.

One of the worst attitudes to have on this matter. Yet fairly frequent among Christians and Muslims anyway.


* Belief in God's existence is a means to an end. God does not necessarily want belief so much as He wants people to develop moral virtue. The perceived need to make all people believe is basically a misunderstanding or a mistake.

Sort of the typical stance of the more liberal Christians.

 

[Parsimony]

I think that would be a dishonest comparison, as one cannot "reject" God if one doesn't believe that God exists.

As I stated in a later post in here, that's not my own position: it's a position held by others.

Another question, can you explain how that makes sense logically?

Not really. If it were up to me, I'd probably make it where everyone knew for a rational certainty that God existed so that unbelief wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As I stated in a later post in here, that's not my own position: it's a position held by others.

Not really. If it were up to me, I'd probably make it where everyone knew for a rational certainty that God existed so that unbelief wouldn't be an issue.

As long as it's done in a healthy manner, I can see why any Christian who agrees will see it that way instead. I mean, if I didn't love my parent, I'd rather (if there wasn't something specifically wrong between my parent and I) someone help me know that my parent loves me and the importance of love between the two parties rather than punishment and belittlement for disloving the parent without knowing why or even stepping into that person's shoes in the first place.

Long story short, I agree if I were seeing it from a Christian perspective.

 

[chevron1]

we have to believe in G-d because He commanded us to.

Additionally, without intent to fulfill a commandment of G-d (which is predicated on belief), there are many commandments that are not fulfilled by the simple doing of them.

if he commands us to believe, then he can command us not to believe. if he commands us not to believe through revelation, then can disbelief still be a sin? i think not.

 

[Tumah]

if he commands us to believe, then he can command us not to believe. if he commands us not to believe through revelation, then can disbelief still be a sin? i think not.

Obviously...that makes no sense.

 

[chevron1]

Obviously...that makes no sense.

it makes sense if you ask can god change his sins.

 

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, the idea that disbelief could be a sin is one of the weirdest traits of certain religions.

It can only be taken at all seriously after one accepts a considerably suspect and unadvisable set of premises. One that is at least arguably self-contradictory as well.

 

[Erebus]

Come to think of it, the idea that disbelief could be a sin is one of the weirdest traits of certain religions.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with that one. Unhealthy? Sure. Dangerous? Certainly can be. Not weird though.

To my mind it's just an example of humanity's natural tendency towards tribalism. Disbelief may not seem like a big deal to you or I, but it definitely facilitates an "Us" and a "Them". It only takes a minor difference in appearance or outlook for humanity to start dividing itself into factions. Given the length of time a lot of religions have had to refine and consolidate their doctrines, I can certainly see how disbelief as a sin could become entrenched in some of them.

 

[LuisDantas]

It becomes odd when coupled with the idea that a Creator God meant for all of humanity to exist and yet did not make instinctive awareness of his existence an inherent trait of ours,though.

Which may be why it looks like Islam somewhat believes that we do have such an awareness, at least at birth.

 

[Erebus]

It becomes odd when coupled with the idea that a Creator God meant for all of humanity to exist and yet did not make instinctive awareness of his existence an inherent trait of ours,though.

Which may be why it looks like Islam somewhat believes that we do have such an awareness, at least at birth.

Oh definitely, disbelief as sin has a lot of flaws to its logic. My point is that looking at humans as animals with illogical drives, instincts and biases, it becomes easier to see how the doctrine began and how it persists.

 

[Desert Snake]

Oh definitely, disbelief as sin has a lot of flaws to its logic. My point is that looking at humans as animals with illogical drives, instincts and biases, it becomes easier to see how the doctrine began and how it persists.

So, your going to enlighten everyone with this knowledge of ''why'' disbelief is considered a sin, etc? Or just talk around the subject, vaguely. Do you know the reasons why it might be a sin? From your description here, it looks pretty biased..