Disgruntled former SS teacher

[Autodidact]

Some things are bugging me. Maybe I've learned too much to be comfortable teaching the standard "Christian" beliefs. I'll ask one question at a time.

Question-
If God is "Good", then how can He be called a "Jealous" God in the Hebrew Bible? I would consider being jealous to be a bad trait.

There's one simple explanation that accounts for all the facts and does not require any sophistry or special pleading. God doesn't exist.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

There's one simple explanation that accounts for all the facts and does not require any sophistry or special pleading. God doesn't exist.

What? no more rocks to turn over?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Why do Atheists always come into a thread about a specific thing and throw out: "God doesn't exist"? That isn't what the thread is about

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yes and if you study history, you'll see the Israelities originally had a Monist view were they viewed all these deities as being one with God. They later turned toward Monotheism, and that influenced the bias of the Bible, since most of the Tanak was not written until the pre-Babylonian exile period or later. The Bible also says Moses made a bronze serpent on a pole and commanded the people to look to it for life, but later when Israel's view of God started to shift, Hezekiah cut down Nahushtan's altar and broke the bronze serpent.

if we examine Moses' plagues we can see that God is a baby killer....

are you saying this is a mistranslation too?

 

[Eliot Wild]

If "jealous" is an inaccurate translation, I'd certainly like to know. Anyone who speaks Hebrew want to weigh in?

I speak neither Hebrew nor Greek, but I did a little impromptu research. I am not vouching for the accuracy of this research as it was done on the internet, so you folks can take it for what it is worth . . . not a great deal.

But what I found out is that the term "jealous" when used to refer to God is actually from the Greek word, Zel'os, which is the basis of the English word "zealous", and the word actually refers more to zeal and ardor, an energetic love/appreciation for something.

Regardless of all that, however, to me, this is just one more example of why I can't respect the Bible as infallible communication from God to man. Trying to understand all the different translations and interpretations is like walking through a house of mirrors. Even scholars and academic experts on Biblical translations argue over meaning and context.

If God wanted to communicate his truths to man, this further proves to me that he wouldn't use such a fallible form of communication as human language, which changes so quickly and drastically over time. He might use mathmatics or some other manner of stating specifically and definitively what he meant, and not leave it to us to argue over, create wars over it, kill our brothers over it. To me, believing in a literal translation of the Bible or any other supposed Holy Book is evidence of an insane mind, at least on some level. Sorry, if that offends anyone. Nothing personal meant, as I have my own insanities as well, but believing that an Absolute Being would use words to communicate with is not one of my insanities.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

if we examine Moses' plagues we can see that God is a baby killer....

are you saying this is a mistranslation too?

I'm saying it's a traditional fable. It's not likely a actual Moses existed. Even some Jewish scholars acknowledge that. Moses may have been a way of passing down an oral tradition until a lot of the Torah was recorded in writing.

 

[Storm]

Storm it isn't that it is inaccurate, it is just that we can go back to the original Hebrew as I did above, and see what the translators used to decide on using the word jealous.

So, for conversation does the above definition, conclude you to only think jealous? If so, than maybe it is a proper enough term, then to others it might not be. It is from a root word however, that means in Hebrew "to become very red"

I can't seem to find the post you're talking about. What number is it?

 

[Storm]

I speak neither Hebrew nor Greek, but I did a little impromptu research. I am not vouching for the accuracy of this research as it was done on the internet, so you folks can take it for what it is worth . . . not a great deal.

But what I found out is that the term "jealous" when used to refer to God is actually from the Greek word, Zel'os, which is the basis of the English word "zealous", and the word actually refers more to zeal and ardor, an energetic love/appreciation for something.

That's interesting, but I'd like confirmation from one of our resident scholars.

Regardless of all that, however, to me, this is just one more example of why I can't respect the Bible as infallible communication from God to man. Trying to understand all the different translations and interpretations is like walking through a house of mirrors. Even scholars and academic experts on Biblical translations argue over meaning and context.

If God wanted to communicate his truths to man, this further proves to me that he wouldn't use such a fallible form of communication as human language, which changes so quickly and drastically over time. He might use mathmatics or some other manner of stating specifically and definitively what he meant, and not leave it to us to argue over, create wars over it, kill our brothers over it. To me, believing in a literal translation of the Bible or any other supposed Holy Book is evidence of an insane mind, at least on some level. Sorry, if that offends anyone. Nothing personal meant, as I have my own insanities as well, but believing that an Absolute Being would use words to communicate with is not one of my insanities.

Off-topic.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Maybe the actual word needs to be looked up and see what else the original Greek or Hebrew could be interpreted as. We often times read the English version not remembering it is a translation.

God actually says in Exodus.

My name is Qanna (Jealous), and you shall have no gods before me...

(Also inExd 34:14, Deu 4:24, Deu 5:9 and Deu 6:15)

Throughout the Old Testament, God is either named Jealous, or described as jealous.


(Joshua 24:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Nahum 1:2, Zechariah 8:2, etc...)

 

[Eliot Wild]

Off-topic.

With all due respect, how is it off-topic?

If the subject of the original post is the validity of Biblical references to a "jealous God", how can a refutation of Biblical validity and infallibility be "off-topic"?

The OP explicitly states that as a former teacher of the Bible, a Sunday School teacher, I believe, she finds certain inconsistencies there. My comments were, not only to confirm that I too find inconsistencies in the Bible, but to use them as I see them as a refutation of Biblical infallibity.

Another way of looking at it is as follows: If the Bible is fallible, then it certainly can't be the work of a a perfect being, and therefore any references to God's nature or "personality", such as calling God jealous, would be meaningless.

Could you please explain how my comments were off-topic so I don't make the same mistake in the future?

 

[Storm]

With all due respect, how is it off-topic?

If the subject of the original post is the validity of Biblical references to a "jealous God", how can a refutation of Biblical validity and infallibility be "off-topic"?

The OP explicitly states that as a former teacher of the Bible, a Sunday School teacher, I believe, she finds certain inconsistencies there. My comments were, not only to confirm that I too find inconsistencies in the Bible, but to use them as I see them as a refutation of Biblical infallibity.

Another way of looking at it is as follows: If the Bible is fallible, then it certainly can't be the work of a a perfect being, and therefore any references to God's nature or "personality", such as calling God jealous, would be meaningless.

Could you please explain how my comments were off-topic so I don't make the same mistake in the future?

Well, my impression was that the op wished to discuss the nature/ worthiness, not the existence of the Christian God. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm saying it's a traditional fable. It's not likely a actual Moses existed. Even some Jewish scholars acknowledge that. Moses may have been a way of passing down an oral tradition until a lot of the Torah was recorded in writing.

true or not....

Jews do seem to want to run screaming from any idea that they have been influenced by Egypt...at all..in ANY way...

But , the plagues and baby killing, fable or not..it does point to a petulant childish deity.... or someone was petulant and childish...

 

[Eliot Wild]

Well, my impression was that the op wished to discuss the nature/ worthiness, not the existence of the Christian God. Perhaps I was wrong.

I wasn't arguing against the existence of the Christian God. I was arguing against Biblical infallibity, which seems to me is quite relevant when discussing God's nature. If the Bible makes claims as to God's nature and personality, but it is fallible, then we can disregard what the Bible says concerning God's personality, can't we?

I never said that God doesn't exist. I said I find the Bible to be fallible, and therefore not credible when explaining God's nature or personality. Therefore, any Biblical references to a "jealous God" might be incorrect.

For all I know, maybe God is a jealous dude, but I am not going to believe that just because the Bible says it.

 

[Storm]

I wasn't arguing against the existence of the Christian God. I was arguing against Biblical infallibity, which seems to me is quite relevant when discussing God's nature. If the Bible makes claims as to God's nature and personality, but it is fallible, then we can disregard what the Bible says concerning God's personality, can't we?

I never said that God doesn't exist. I said I find the Bible to be fallible, and therefore not credible when explaining God's nature or personality. Therefore, any Biblical references to a "jealous God" might be incorrect.

For all I know, maybe God is a jealous dude, but I am not going to believe that just because the Bible says it.

OK, nevermind.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I can't seem to find the post you're talking about. What number is it?

Storm here it is again, I realized I linked the wrong one before, sorry.

God actually says in Exodus.

My name is Qanna (Jealous), and you shall have no gods before me...

(Also inExd 34:14, Deu 4:24, Deu 5:9 and Deu 6:15)

Throughout the Old Testament, God is either named Jealous, or described as jealous.


(Joshua 24:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Nahum 1:2, Zechariah 8:2, etc...)

See above link, or explanation. God is called many things to describe his attributes, as I know you are already aware of. To my earlier point, the word jealous needs to be understood in the original context, and reflected away from what we might think it means, as I know you are aware of also.

So if his name is potato in English language, I want to know more about the word or concept behind the word potato. That's all.

 

[Storm]

Storm here it is again, I realized I linked the wrong one before, sorry.

Originally Posted by tumbleweed41
God actually says in Exodus.

My name is Qanna (Jealous), and you shall have no gods before me...

(Also inExd 34:14, Deu 4:24, Deu 5:9 and Deu 6:15)

Throughout the Old Testament, God is either named Jealous, or described as jealous.


(Joshua 24:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Nahum 1:2, Zechariah 8:2, etc...)

See above link, or explanation. God is called many things to describe his attributes, as I know you are already aware of. To my earlier point, the word jealous needs to be understood in the original context, and reflected away from what we might think it means, as I know you are aware of also.

So if his name is potato in English language, I want to know more about the word or concept behind the word potato. That's all.

That's not an alternative definition, though. I've already agreed that clarifying the original word would be good, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Because the word jealous is the best we could do when trying to convey what the Hebrews were saying. Reflection should be done, beyond using the word jealous, since we have the original phrase/concept/text to examine.

So, rather then discuss if God is a jealous god, let's discuss, the original language, is God bad, because he doesn't not want any rivals. Does that make him jealous in the exact sense people are so quick to suggest?

Worth discussing to me

 

[Storm]

Because the word jealous is the best we could do when trying to convey what the Hebrews were saying. Reflection should be done, beyond using the word jealous, since we have the original phrase/concept/text to examine.

But we don't, yet. I'm hoping one of our more knowledgable members will weigh in, but tumbleweed's post just reiterated the "jealous" translation.

What are you seeing that I'm not?

So, rather then discuss if God is a jealous god, let's discuss, the original language, is God bad, because he doesn't not want any rivals. Does that make him jealous in the exact sense people are so quick to suggest?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the connotations of the original Hebrew, and I don't know what those are.

Worth discussing to me

And to me. I just don't know what understanding you're trying to discuss.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

But we don't, yet. I'm hoping one of our more knowledgable members will weigh in, but tumbleweed's post just reiterated the "jealous" translation.

What are you seeing that I'm not?


Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the connotations of the original Hebrew, and I don't know what those are.


And to me. I just don't know what understanding you're trying to discuss.

Truly I can not divulge a competent understanding to you, as mine is only an exploratory understanding and interest.

Sorry to mislead you, as I was simply suggesting that the quicker we get away from thinking about "jealous" as we think in modern times and dismiss the text (which I am not suggesting you did that) but clearly others use that word by itself to mock and make fun of...

When we look at a phrase like, "God not bearing any rival" it might simply suggest "bearing" means creating or birthing, and if that is the case, and God created everything, it seems to be a declaration that God created everything but never did God create anything his equal.

This explanation goes well with much of the Old Testament, where God warns over and over, don't treat anything like it is God.
Could be a simple a candid statement by God, that while somethings are glorious and reflect God's great ability to create, don't mistake the creation for the creator.

This is no way implies a childish immature jealousy we might usually equate with the word jealous, IMO.

So that is my unscholarly two cents, and I look forward to getting slammed by Jay! and learning more.

 

[Autodidact]

Why do Atheists always come into a thread about a specific thing and throw out: "God doesn't exist"? That isn't what the thread is about

I beg to differ, and offer that is exactly the question the OP is pondering.