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Dismantling the "Seven Deadly Sins"

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Much of conservative Christian thought revolves around redeeming humans and freeing them from "sin." At the apex of Christian definitions of sin are the cardinal sins or what are more commonly known as the "seven deadly sins."

In this thread I will disassemble them one by one and explain why I think the foundation of the Christian view of sin is deeply flawed.

Wrath: Wrath, defined as intense anger, is a natural human reaction to certain events that people encounter in their lives. Sometimes it can lead to less-than-optimal decisions that put emotion above reason as well as violent reactions to relatively harmless occurrences, but the worst that could be said about it is that it is an unnecessary emotion. To define it as a sin is to say that a very human and natural aspect of most people's emotions is sinful.

I personally think that anger is an unnecessary emotion and a hindrance to rational thought, but I also realize that it is natural and not something that people should normally be ashamed of experiencing.

Greed: While arguably being the most negative emotion out of the cardinal sins, greed is also a natural emotion for many people. Desiring to have a lot of possessions is only negative if it causes one to take away the rights of others or be selfish at the expense of other people. Other than that, the worst thing that could come out of it is preoccupation with one's desires. That is not always a negative thing, however, and one that I can hardly see qualifying as a sin unless it causes someone to harm others or infringe on their rights.

Sloth: The only context in which I would view sloth as anything close to a "sin" is when it hinders people's ability to achieve what is required or expected of them. Resting and even being lazy after one has done what is required of them seems to me to be a very healthy and natural activity. It also seems more than a little odd to me that sloth would be classified as one of the seven deadly sins while selfishness and hatred, for example, do not make the list. It certainly says a lot about the priorities of the thinking that underlies traditional Christianity.

Envy: Short of wishing that other people lose what they have out of envy, I don't see what is sinful about envy whatsoever. In fact, desiring to have things like what others have can be a positive incentive to work hard and achieve what one wants. And, like sloth, it strikes me as odd that envy would make the list of the seven deadly sins while hatred, for example, does not.

Lust: This is possibly the emotion that, more than any other of the cardinal sins, should not be on this list. Lust is natural. Lust is enjoyable. Lust is harmless. Lust is human. In most Christian definitions, lust often refers to intense sexual desire, and puritanical thought primarily frowns on lust due to its sexual connotations. Classifying lust as a sin is a classical method of controlling the masses and inspiring self-loathing in people due to the teaching that humans are inherently sinful and therefore need to repent from their innate feelings and desires.

Gluttony: I think most of us will agree that wasting resources is a bad thing. Excessive indulgence is also not particularly healthy or desirable for a lot of people. Self-indulgence every now and then, however, is both natural and healthy, at least as far as I can see. Like most other activities that we do in our lives, unless it infringes on others' rights or harms anyone, there is nothing wrong with gluttony. One can give to charity and engage in gluttony simultaneously. The assumption that the two are mutually exclusive seems to stem from nothing more than archaic notions of what qualifies as "sin," which in this case underlie the Christian notions of sin and redemption.

Pride: Arrogance, or excessive pride, can lead to harming others out of the belief that one is more important or worthier than others. Pride in the sense of feeling self-sufficient and independent, however, can and is usually a very positive emotion. Pride is why a lot of people desire to support themselves rather than rely on others. It is also why a lot of people seek to help others when they can instead of waiting for someone else to do so. The notion that pride is a sin seems to come down to the Christian belief that the Christian deity is superior to humans and humans, therefore, should feel inferior and foster such feeling. I think that is both unhealthy and irrational, as is the case with most other definitions of what qualifies as a "sin" in traditional Christianity.

Feel free to discuss the above or add your own comments. Also feel free to post questions to stir up discussion or debate in this thread.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Amazing topic, one of which I had considered for a long time.

I've always seen the idea of these sins as make-up behaviours imposed on man because of God's deficient Creation.

A very small percentage of this planet is actually habitable, and there are limited resources to go around. We get all of this energy from the sun bombarding the planet, yet only about .1% of it is actually available to sustain the human body through a horrible food chain. We have to masticate organic matter of other living beings, and burn it like a cheap coal furnace. It is essentially violent to cause the death of other life to sustain our own, and inefficient to use that matter to sustain our own lives.

Further, since resources are scarce, we have to fight for them, cause us to be violent for the most terrible reason of all, the protection of what we have vs. the desire to have it. Instead of travel, we have to settle down to ensure we don't starve or run out of potable water. We must create additional social controls to handle this newly settled and growing population.

The sins are social controls to help us live together in a terribly flawed place, predicated on ruling classes to organize and slave labour to do the work. Concisely, this is how I think about them:

Resource-Based Sins
Lust:
Control of population through breeding. no unauthorized sex
Gluttony: Control of the distribution of food and potable water. no unnecessary eating and drinking
Greed: Control of the distribution of resources. no additional possessions outside of survival's necessity

Sloth: The fulcrum between social efforts vs resources available. produce more than you use for the ruling classes

Social Control-Based Sins
Envy:
Control of the desire for more food and resources than you have. no comparing yourself to the ruling classes
Pride: Control for the belief that you actually deserve more food and resources than you have. no thinking that you deserve more than the ruling classes
Wrath: Control for the actions of taking more food and resources for yourself. no revolting against the ruling classes
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
The word "sin" implies disobedience to the will of God or behavior that goes against some higher principle. From a Christian perspective the serpent introduced us to our independence of mind and will from that of the mind and will of God in the Garden of Eden. Hence, to think or do in accordance with our own mind and will is counter to God's original design, therefore, is sinful. As a Setian/Satanist the independence of self, isolate intelligence is the most sacred of human virtues and all attempts to stifle or subjugate this Gift would be "sinful" to me.
 
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Kolibri

Well-Known Member
The "7 Deadly Sins" is not even a Bible listing. They were first listed as 8 by Evagrius of Pontus, an ascetic monk of the 4th Century. Envy was not in this list. Evagrius listed dejection separately from sloth and vainglory separately from pride.

In 590 C.E., Pope Gregory I revised the list to the form we are familiar with today. So rather than being a 'christian' teaching as a whole, it is primarily a catholic one.

In contrast here are a list of sins found in 2 places in the Bible. How do they match up?

There are six things that Jehovah hates;
Yes, seven things that he (or, "his soul.") detests:
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
A false witness who lies with every breath,
And anyone sowing contentions among brothers.
- Proverbs 6:16-19

This list is considerably larger:

Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, (or "shameless conduct.") idolatry, spiritism, (or "sorcery; druggery.") hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, (or "revelries.") and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's Kingdom.
- Galatians 5:19-21
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Much of conservative Christian thought revolves around redeeming humans and freeing them from "sin." At the apex of Christian definitions of sin are the cardinal sins or what are more commonly known as the "seven deadly sins."

In this thread I will disassemble them one by one and explain why I think the foundation of the Christian view of sin is deeply flawed.

Wrath: Wrath, defined as intense anger, is a natural human reaction to certain events that people encounter in their lives. Sometimes it can lead to less-than-optimal decisions that put emotion above reason as well as violent reactions to relatively harmless occurrences, but the worst that could be said about it is that it is an unnecessary emotion. To define it as a sin is to say that a very human and natural aspect of most people's emotions is sinful.

I personally think that anger is an unnecessary emotion and a hindrance to rational thought, but I also realize that it is natural and not something that people should normally be ashamed of experiencing.

Greed: While arguably being the most negative emotion out of the cardinal sins, greed is also a natural emotion for many people. Desiring to have a lot of possessions is only negative if it causes one to take away the rights of others or be selfish at the expense of other people. Other than that, the worst thing that could come out of it is preoccupation with one's desires. That is not always a negative thing, however, and one that I can hardly see qualifying as a sin unless it causes someone to harm others or infringe on their rights.

Sloth: The only context in which I would view sloth as anything close to a "sin" is when it hinders people's ability to achieve what is required or expected of them. Resting and even being lazy after one has done what is required of them seems to me to be a very healthy and natural activity. It also seems more than a little odd to me that sloth would be classified as one of the seven deadly sins while selfishness and hatred, for example, do not make the list. It certainly says a lot about the priorities of the thinking that underlies traditional Christianity.

Envy: Short of wishing that other people lose what they have out of envy, I don't see what is sinful about envy whatsoever. In fact, desiring to have things like what others have can be a positive incentive to work hard and achieve what one wants. And, like sloth, it strikes me as odd that envy would make the list of the seven deadly sins while hatred, for example, does not.

Lust: This is possibly the emotion that, more than any other of the cardinal sins, should not be on this list. Lust is natural. Lust is enjoyable. Lust is harmless. Lust is human. In most Christian definitions, lust often refers to intense sexual desire, and puritanical thought primarily frowns on lust due to its sexual connotations. Classifying lust as a sin is a classical method of controlling the masses and inspiring self-loathing in people due to the teaching that humans are inherently sinful and therefore need to repent from their innate feelings and desires.

Gluttony: I think most of us will agree that wasting resources is a bad thing. Excessive indulgence is also not particularly healthy or desirable for a lot of people. Self-indulgence every now and then, however, is both natural and healthy, at least as far as I can see. Like most other activities that we do in our lives, unless it infringes on others' rights or harms anyone, there is nothing wrong with gluttony. One can give to charity and engage in gluttony simultaneously. The assumption that the two are mutually exclusive seems to stem from nothing more than archaic notions of what qualifies as "sin," which in this case underlie the Christian notions of sin and redemption.

Pride: Arrogance, or excessive pride, can lead to harming others out of the belief that one is more important or worthier than others. Pride in the sense of feeling self-sufficient and independent, however, can and is usually a very positive emotion. Pride is why a lot of people desire to support themselves rather than rely on others. It is also why a lot of people seek to help others when they can instead of waiting for someone else to do so. The notion that pride is a sin seems to come down to the Christian belief that the Christian deity is superior to humans and humans, therefore, should feel inferior and foster such feeling. I think that is both unhealthy and irrational, as is the case with most other definitions of what qualifies as a "sin" in traditional Christianity.

Feel free to discuss the above or add your own comments. Also feel free to post questions to stir up discussion or debate in this thread.
IMO, most of these were taken from older things, like the Vedas. They were changed to reflect Chrisitian ideals, which I don't agree with. I agree with you about lust, but in Buddhist thought, most of all, it is living a moral, ethical life where you harm none. Lust can harm the self or others if used in poor ways. Pride is not something I care about, nor is greed. I live modestly and recycle, rarely waste, etc. I am fastidious because I don't like a messy home so sloth is moot for me as well. They all seem like they are meant to deny a person from living, if taken in the form organized religion presents or interprets them. IMO.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
IMO, most of these were taken from older things, like the Vedas. They were changed to reflect Chrisitian ideals, which I don't agree with. I agree with you about lust, but in Buddhist thought, most of all, it is living a moral, ethical life where you harm none. Lust can harm the self or others if used in poor ways. Pride is not something I care about, nor is greed. I live modestly and recycle, rarely waste, etc. I am fastidious because I don't like a messy home so sloth is moot for me as well. They all seem like they are meant to deny a person from living, if taken in the form organized religion presents or interprets them. IMO.


Lust, Romantic Love, or the Greek Eros was even promoted in the Bible under specific circumstances. Who can deny that after reading this?

May your own fountain (or "water source.") be blessed,
And may you rejoice with the wife of your youth,
A loving doe, a graceful mountain goat. (or "ibex.")
Let her breasts satisfy, (or "intoxicate.") you at all times.
May you be captivated by her love constantly.
- Proverbs 5:18,19

Sex, then, among married couples was to be more than simply a reproductive function but a pleasure.
 
These 7 'sins' are things which are harmful to the self.

Lust is excessive desire for something, not necessarily carnal either. Excessive desire for something makes the thing own you.

Wrath again is excessive anger, hatred, which can consume the person. The hate owns you and takes away your happiness.

Greed is wanting too much for yourself, never being happy with what you have and wanting it all at the expense of others. Avarice has been hated in almost every culture (apart from the American one maybe).

Sloth means not doing what is needed. Harming yourself as you do not do what you need to do to the detriment of yourself and those who rely on you.

Envy is desiring what others have rather than being happy with what you have. If you are a multi-millionaire but are surrounded by billionaires you can still envy them when you should be grateful for your success. An envious person can never be happy.

Gluttony is over indulgence, consumption to excess. If you can't control your consumption again you are owned by the need. There may be times where you cannot satisfy your need for consumption too, which creates unhappiness. The times aren't always good.

Pride again means to have an over high opinion of oneself. To consider yourself superior to others. A trait universally hated by everyone in others, thus meaning you will never be liked or respected.

As JoStories mentioned before, these are not really uniquely Christian. Buddhists, Stoics, etc. would say the same things. I would imagine the Stoics were more likely to be influential on Christianity though.

I'm of the belief that these are pretty good guidelines for living, and the ultimate beneficiary is yourself. They are considered 'sins' in excess though, not in moderation. Reasonable self-confidence is not pride, relaxing is not sloth and controlled anger against injustice is not wrath.

I find it hard to believe that most of these things are not detrimental to the happiness of most people, even if there are exceptions who use them as a driver for 'success'. Even with these people though, their satisfaction only comes when they have freed themselves of, for example, envy. An envious person is not content. Likewise, A rich person who is still greedy fears the loss of their wealth or can't enjoy what they have as it is still never enough.

These 'sins' are simply human experience identifying what causes harm to individuals and society, rather than a puritanical control mechanism aimed at limiting human nature and shouldn't be considered part of a specifically Christian morality.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
A few thoughts:

Re: "the Christian view of sin"

It's already been pointed out that the formulation of the seven deadly sins doesn't really represent a Christian universal, but just to add a few notes. After Evagrius, the formulation never became as important to eastern Christian thought as it did in medieval Europe. In the same way, the protestant reformers would disagree vehemently with some of what they felt was implied by this sort of formulation as well, because of its monastic heritage and their view of monasticism as an attempt to earn salvation, over against Luther's understanding of salvation by grace, through faith alone. To speak of the "apex of the Christian definitions of sin" as the formalization of "cardinal sin" in the medieval catholic tradition I think is probably unjustfied. Other currents of Christian thought are no less important.

Re: the specific objections to the supposed "deadly sins"

I also think that your characterizations probably are not sufficient, both in the sense that the formalization of sin should still also be weighed against less quasi-legal approaches even within the Roman church or within Scholasticism specifically, but also because I think you misconstrue what it was that the authors of these texts were trying to get at, at least in part. I think this may be caused by importing understandings of "sin" and "salvation" into your reading which don't really reflect the original views.

For example, from the standpoint of Evagrius, it would be wrong to conflate "wrath" as something sinful either with merely anger as a human emotion, or even with any particular act, as in a wrathful act. With regard to the first, from the Philokalia, Evagrius writes:

"There is among the practice of the virtues an anger of the intellect, and this anger is in accordance with nature. Without anger a man cannot attain purity: he has to feel angry with all that is sown in him by the enemy." (On Guarding the Intellect)
So it should be clear already that to criticize "wrath" in his usage as a condemnation of a normal human emotion is to misunderstand him. The phrase "in accordance with nature" is also important to understanding both Evagrius and the later Scholastic tradition. To oversimplify, in the desert monastic tradition of which Evagrius is an example (c.f. Anthony the Great, Pseudo-Macarius, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, etc) the entire conversation about virtue and vice refers especially to the cultivation of dispassion, which is the quieting of physical, mental, and emotional habits of being which were seen as destructive to the fullness of human life. The "nature" in accordance with life is intended to be lived is that fullness, expressed as the teleios (perfection, completeness) of human life both by Jesus ("be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect") and as communion with the Divine nature in 2 Peter.

"Habit" is also a key word. What is emphasized is not so much any specific act or the normal human dynamic of emotion, but patterns of thinking and behavior which were seen as making impossible the cultivation of that Divine union which was the goal of monastic life. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God," the beatitude said, and the desert fathers wished to "see" God. Sin then was in essence anything that inhibited or prevented that path from reaching fruition, rather than a purely ethical judgement about the value of a particular act or attitude. Scholasticism's understanding of sin and nature is related, although sometimes lacking as explicit of a focus on Divine union. But even for them, it was not a sin to have normal emotions, but the corruption of those emotions, an unhealthy over-emphasis on a particular emotion, if it dominates your life, makes difficult a truly spiritual life.

Remember that the goal is "dispassion", which is a kind of healthy and mature self-control. So to continue the analogy beyond wrath, what is "sinful" is not sexual desire, but lust as an unhealthy obsession when we have no control over it, as with greed, envy, gluttony, or even pride. So in most of your descriptions, you are hearing terms to be calling out basic constitutive human emotions or ways of being as sinful, but that is not really what is meant. Rather, when you agree that intense anger can lead to suboptimal decisions (especially heard not as an occasional vice but a persistent habit of thinking), or that arrogance can harm others or ourselves, or that excessive indulgence can be unhealthy, you are getting closer to the original understanding of these "sins" as unhelpful passions than your actual criticism.s

Re: sloth

I think this one deserves a special comment, because your comment draws out something which is important, and also applies to the others. You wrote:

The only context in which I would view sloth as anything close to a "sin" is when it hinders people's ability to achieve what is required or expected of them.

The context in which most of the original writings were written is Christian monasticism. That is, Evagrius, John Cassian, Pope Gregory, and even the Scholastics were all monks writing to and for other monks. These are works of exhortation urging Christians engaged in a particular way of life onward in their chosen journey. These are people who voluntarily took up a life of ascetic practice with a very particular aim: union with God.

Now, throughout the history of Christianity, that is the aim not just of monastics specifically, but of all Christians, however understood, but even so it has always been the case that Christian traditions in which monastic communities have existed have recognized pragmatic differences in what was reasonable ascesis for monks in comparison to non-monks.

Evagrius' exhortation for how a monk should approach lust as a passion is not really the same as the advice he would give to a young married couple. The legalistic view tends to simplify the topic as though it were a question of an absolute morality unequivocally applied, but that is not the context in which the original writings occur.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Well, you're not using the definitions that Christians use when we refer to those things. See:
Seven deadly sins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Seven Deadly Sins of the Catholic Church - For Dummies
The Seven Capital Sins

Also, Christianity doesn't hold that just because something is "natural" (i.e. comes naturally to you) that it is automatically good and allowable. We don't view virtue in terms of "well, as long as it doesn't seem to harm anyone, it's alright". No, there's a much higher standard involved.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
One more quote from Evagrius, which I think captures the perspective of the entire ancient eastern Christian monastic perspective on this:

"When the soul has been purified through the keeping of all the commandments, it makes the intellect steadfast and able to receive the state needed for prayer. Prayer is communion of the intellect with God. What state, then, does the intellect need so that it can reach out to its Lord without deflection and commune with Him without intermediary? When Moses tried to draw near to the burning bush he was forbidden to approach until he had loosed his sandals from his feet. If, then, you wish to behold and commune with Him who is beyond sense-perception and beyond concept, you must free yourself from every impassioned thought." (On Prayer)
So I would agree with Augustus' point that it's in part a matter of human experience trying to understand what is helpful and harmful both to an individual and to a society, and in that sense it is also certainly possible to approach the topic also with a modern understanding and perhaps think a bit differently about "nature", or about what is helpful and harmful. But beyond that, in this ancient monastic context, the idea shouldn't be separated from its original aim, which is not even so much about a salvation understood as the keeping of a purely external ethical standard in order to receive a future redemption from hell, or reward in heaven, but communion with the Divine that is pursued now, in this life.
 
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