Divorce

[tumbleweed41]

It is strange to me, I introduce the fact that the word "except" should have and can be translated "even", not a single Christian is interested in exploring the validity of that claim. If I were a Christian spouting my mouth I would be interested in that because it totally changes the doctrine of divorce in the NT. As usual, tradition wins out over truth.

Wondering where you get this translation?

μὴ is translated as a qualified negation, such as except or unless in every translation of the Greek that I know of.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Wondering where you get this translation?

μὴ is translated as a qualified negation, such as except or unless in every translation of the Greek that I know of.

It has been a while, and I might be in error by saying the word even. Now that I think more on it, I believe a better translation would be to use the word "saving". I believe then the word saving in this context and manner used will have the same root word as "even" in such a context.

Example, "there is to be no divorce, saving for the cause of fornication."

It has been a while, but as I said when a study is done on the particular word and translation I recall without a doubt finding the translation suspect.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It has been a while, and I might be in error by saying the word even. Now that I think more on it, I believe a better translation would be to use the word "saving". I believe then the word saving in this context and manner used will have the same root word as "even" in such a context.

Example, "there is to be no divorce, saving for the cause of fornication."

It has been a while, but as I said when a study is done on the particular word and translation I recall without a doubt finding the translation suspect.

Like I said, μὴ is translated as a qualified negation, such as except or unless in every translation of the Greek that I know of.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Like I said, μὴ is translated as a qualified negation, such as except or unless in every translation of the Greek that I know of.

It appears you are interested so I will dig out the research on this, if only to reaffirm my thoughts, but hopefully to add something to the conversation.

Let me also leave you with this for now until I have the rest of the information. The context of divorce was for fornication in the OT, as Moses gave allowance. From an overall scriptural view this could symbolize the fornication the Jews were doing in that they were seeking other gods throughout the OT, as such "cheating or fornicated against God.
This allowance could have been introduced to allow God to divorce his people or bride if you will, and be espoused to another bride. Then of course Jesus came and spoke much of his bride through parables and so forth.

This type of thought process is what fuels the study of translation I am referring too, and I'll try to get back sooner then later to finish posting. Might be tomorrow though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

All this debate over one word? Man.

It's no wonder some people are so stressed out. How about sitting back with your favorite beverage and laughing over how kids say the darndest things?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

All this debate over one word? Man.

It's no wonder some people are so stressed out. How about sitting back with your favorite beverage and laughing over how kids say the darndest things?

Kids are generally more logical and coherent than most of the stuff that get's posted on RF.

 

[Autodidact]

No, it's about a (nearly) non-existent group of people.

What? There aren't Christians who oppose gay marriage? That's news to me. My impression is that Tarasan is the exception rather than the rule. I seem to recall many long threads arguing with right-wing Christians on the subject right here at RF. Would you like me to link you to a few of them? We just finished such a discussion regarding lesbian parenting with a poster named Wayne here. He describes himself as Christian. I found him fairly typical. I note he and his ilk did not find this subject of sufficient interest to comment on it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Kids are generally more logical and coherent than most of the stuff that get's posted on RF.

Not my kids.

As a bisexual polyamorous Buddhist dancer mom, I'm trying desperately to ruin their lives and to cripple their worldview. :yes:

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Like I said, μὴ is translated as a qualified negation, such as except or unless in every translation of the Greek that I know of.

OK I took a moment to look at this in my books.

In Matthew 19 vs 9 the word except is not the same greek word as used in Matthew 26:42. The latter is only used as a negative, and the former is not, and can be translated "saving". Point being, if this is the case we have to look at the context and overall picture to be sure what is the best translation to fit. This will lead to arguments of course, but my point is made, it is suspect.

In Mat 19 the word except is pronounced "ei me" with the e in me being a long e.
In Mat 26 the word except is pronounced "ean me" with the e in me being long e.

Two different greek words, with the latter certainly being a negative, but the former not having to be a negative. If you want more research let me know, but thought you might like this for now.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Not my kids.

As a bisexual polyamorous Buddhist dancer mom, I'm trying desperately to ruin their lives and to cripple their worldview. :yes:

Pfft - you're going about it all wrong. Just indoctrinate them into believing they'll go to hell if they're not Christian. Then, indoctrinate them with all sorts of unchristian opinions, such as they should hate homosexuals. This will cripple their worldview faster than anything.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Pfft - you're going about it all wrong. Just indoctrinate them into believing they'll go to hell if they're not Christian. Then, indoctrinate them with all sorts of unchristian opinions, such as they should hate homosexuals. This will cripple their worldview faster than anything.

Then as a mother I have failed.

.

.

.

Who's up for that beverage? :drunk:

 

[Just_me_Mike]

All this debate over one word? Man.

It's no wonder some people are so stressed out. How about sitting back with your favorite beverage and laughing over how kids say the darndest things?

For the record, this one word is the only word in the NT that would allow or disallow marriage according to scripture. So for those interested in the topic, it is an important one. There is no other reference in the NT to such a topic.

Admittedly it is very dry and boring

 

[Autodidact]

I see that you have managed to reach a new low. Doesn't it get a little hot down there?

If you have an actual argument to make, refuting my points, feel free to start at any time.

Divorce leads to people being single which is a perfectly legitimate state.

Your problem is not so much divorce as remarriage after divorce, which Christ has outlawed. What is your position on it?

Homosexuality is never a legitimate state and marriage can't legitimize it.

You need to make an actual argument. You may find this hard to believe, but a bald assertion from some stranger on the internet does not hold much sway.

However to make homosexual marriage legal is to recognize it as legitimate. A Christian in good conscience can't do that. Divorce although not a good thing (a sin) is legitimate in the Bible.

Millions of Christians believe the exact opposite. You really should speak for yourself, since no one gave you authority to speak for all of Christianity. Can you provide scriptural support for your assertion that divorce is Biblical. Because this is what my copy says:

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Doesn't sound very legitimate to me. Sounds like Jesus doesn't want you to get divorced, and really doesn't want you to remarry after divorce.

 

[Autodidact]

So your answer is "Because the bible says so"?

But the Bible doesn't say so; that's my point.

 

[Autodidact]

The wages of sin is death. No-one escapes.

There isn't a penalty system of which I am aware. A brother in sin is to be exhorted to change his ways. However divorce is legitimate and the person is under grace.

You keep saying this, in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus. It seems you substitute your judgment for that of God. Do you have a term for that in your religion?

I would think this would be true also of a homosexual even though his acts aren't legitimate.

Whereas, unlike divorce, lesbianism is NEVER prohibited. Not once. Zip. And whether homosexuality is prohibited is debatable. Certainly Christ never commented on it. UNLIKE DIVORCE. Why, it's almost as though you ignore Christ's words completely, and just impose your prejudice on other people willy-nilly.

 

[Autodidact]

By the way, I believe that an indepth study of biblical principles and teachings affords the option of divorce for adultery, abuse, and abandonment in some cases - but that's probably a topic for another thread.

As a divorced and remarried (and fairly devout) Christian who is serious about my faith, I've done a lot of research on the topic of divorce and remarriage. If there's enough interest, I'll start a thread on the topic.

However, this clearly isn't the thread to discuss it, since it's stepped out of it's closet and been "outted" as a manipulative, trollish thread.

I also don't care much for the tone - but hey, that's just me.

Well I think this might be an O.K. thread to make your argument. It doesn't seem like many Christians are interested, so it may be your only chance.

 

[Autodidact]

I also don't care much for the tone - but hey, that's just me.

Well I don't care for people who don't follow their own religion insisting that I should, and that's what I'm striking back against. I do not include you in that group--I think you know the sort of thing I'm combatting. People who argue against gay marriage on the ridiculous grounds that their religion prohibits it, all the while not caring the least about second marriage, which their religion clearly does prohibit.

 

[Autodidact]

If you have a better source of right and wrong other than the God who created the universe and said "It is good." let me know.

Then why do you disregard His words?

 

[Autodidact]

Evidently God hasn't accepted your message that He should run the universe on your opinion.

But He should run it on yours, which clearly disagrees with His?

 

[Autodidact]

Evidently God hasn't accepted your message that He should run the universe on your opinion.

Oddly, Kathryn is agreeing with you. So you may direct these words at yourself.