Do beliefs really matter?

[Quintessence]

In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter? Does quarreling over what beliefs are "right" and "wrong" really matter? Should the focus instead be on the tangible and measurable outcomes of belief (behavior)?

Discuss!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes. For thinking people, what we "believe" is directly related to what we do.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Yes. For thinking people, what we "believe" is directly related to what we do.

Seconded.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes. For thinking people, what we "believe" is directly related to what we do.

In what way is it related?

I challenge this for a few reasons, one of which is the strong precedent people have for saying one thing and doing something entirely different. There is not a direct conversion of beliefs to behavior, and given this, why all the fuss about beliefs instead of the consequences that come out of them?

To use an absurd example, if a person believes the sky is made of ice cream (literally, not metaphorically) but this has no impact on how they actually behave, why do we care what they believe what we consider to be a lie? Does it matter?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is why I don't put very much stock in what most people verbally express that they actually believe. What people really "believe" is more accurately conveyed through their actions than their words. In most things, I've learned to be highly skeptical of taking peoples' words at face value, and am more interested in what they're actually going to do, as opposed to what they say they're going to do. The two seem to have little correlation with most people.

 

[Alex_G]

​

In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter? Does quarreling over what beliefs are "right" and "wrong" really matter? Should the focus instead be on the tangible and measurable outcomes of belief (behavior)?

Discuss!

Well i do think we can have meaningful discussions about what we believe, and the reasons behind why we hold those particular beliefs. It is another, and equally important thing to assess our behaviours, as driven by our conscious thoughts and unconscious thoughts alike. We have plenty left to learn about ourselves and the world around us, and i think its worthwhile to continue asking questions about our own nature.

Alex

 

[Gjallarhorn]

In what way is it related?

I challenge this for a few reasons, one of which is the strong precedent people have for saying one thing and doing something entirely different. There is not a direct conversion of beliefs to behavior, and given this, why all the fuss about beliefs instead of the consequences that come out of them?

To use an absurd example, if a person believes the sky is made of ice cream (literally, not metaphorically) but this has no impact on how they actually behave, why do we care what they believe what we consider to be a lie? Does it matter?

If someone believes that flying a plane into a tower full of people is God's will, why should we care what they believe?

You can never know what can and cannot come into play in daily life.

 

[Storm]

In what way is it related?

I challenge this for a few reasons, one of which is the strong precedent people have for saying one thing and doing something entirely different. There is not a direct conversion of beliefs to behavior, and given this, why all the fuss about beliefs instead of the consequences that come out of them?

To use an absurd example, if a person believes the sky is made of ice cream (literally, not metaphorically) but this has no impact on how they actually behave, why do we care what they believe what we consider to be a lie? Does it matter?

The absurdity of your example invalidates the point you're trying to make. IRL, beliefs always shape actions.

 

[Quintessence]

Well i do think we can have meaningful discussions about what we believe, and the reasons behind why we hold those particular beliefs. It is another, and equally important thing to assess our behaviours, as driven by our conscious thoughts and unconscious thoughts alike. We have plenty left to learn about ourselves and the world around us, and i think its worthwhile to continue asking questions about our own nature.

Interesting points. The discussion in itself can be worthwhile, if only for the sake of intellectual curiosity. What I find perplexing is when people get caught up in beliefs being "right" or "wrong" when sometimes it may not matter (or doesn't matter in the way assumed).

If someone believes that flying a plane into a tower full of people is God's will, why should we care what they believe?

You can never know what can and cannot come into play in daily life.

Also a good point. When does a belief transition from having no impact in the "real world" to having one, and in what way does it do so? We've no crystal ball to tell this.

This makes me consider a complex question, though. If we want to prevent an undesirable behavior (e.g. flying planes into towers) that are claimed to arise from a particular belief, is the belief "wrong" by association? If so, do we eradicate it? Or are we maybe missing some confounding variables that are the more pressing cause behind the behaviors (e.g. poverty)? Tricky business, this is. I have no perfect answers here myself.

The absurdity of your example invalidates the point you're trying to make. IRL, beliefs always shape actions.

What point am I trying to make? I'm not sure yet myself.
Absurdity doesn't invalidate an argument; that's a logical fallacy I believe?
Are we sure beliefs always shape actions? What if they do so only some of the time? What if a belief produces one type of action in one person, but another in someone else?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes. For thinking people, what we "believe" is directly related to what we do.

That's one of the things I love about you. You're always speaking up for the minority.

 

[Alex_G]

Interesting points. The discussion in itself can be worthwhile, if only for the sake of intellectual curiosity. What I find perplexing is when people get caught up in beliefs being "right" or "wrong" when sometimes it may not matter (or doesn't matter in the way assumed).

Yeah i do agree with you i think, that there is a point, where people put so much time and energy into locking horns on issues of belief, without any clear reason as to why other than stubbornness and ego, and so often its regarding subjects that are so immeasurable and unquantifiable that no reasonable conclusion even seems likely at all. To do this while neglecting far more worthwhile uses of their time and energy in helping to improve this world for the better. In that sense, i think there is a point where peoples beliefs and arguments unfortunately take a front seat overshadowing other things that really should be the priority.

Alex

 

[Revoltingest]

In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter?

What a pithy question about a complex issue!
It deserves a considered & in depth answer.

Yes.

 

[Bob Dixon]

It's actions that matter.

There was a father which had two sons. He went up to one of them and asked him to do some work in the vineyard. The son said, "no, I refuse to do this work", but then went and did it anyway. The father went to his second son and asked him to do the same work. The second son said, "sure, Father, I'll do it", but he didn't do anything. Now you tell me which was the better son. Bonus points for telling me who made this story up.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's actions that matter.
There was a father which had two sons. He went up to one of them and asked him to do some work in the vineyard. The son said, "no, I refuse to do this work", but then went and did it anyway. The father went to his second son and asked him to do the same work. The second son said, "sure, Father, I'll do it", but he didn't do anything. Now you tell me which was the better son. Bonus points for telling me who made this story up.

I'd heard it before, but don't recall the source.
The example misses the link (albeit a tenuous one) between belief & action.
Moreover, the sons could've both been lying, making their beliefs unknown.

 

[The Wizard]

In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter? Does quarreling over what beliefs are "right" and "wrong" really matter? Should the focus instead be on the tangible and measurable outcomes of belief (behavior)?

Discuss!

Is say you're quite objective and on track. Of course beliefs matter. They are a real object that creates real results. They affect things and that affects more things and so forth. Each belief affects everyone differently. How can someone be so certain about someone else's beliefs if they do not have any accounting on how that belief affected the individual or where it helped put them in life? The focus should indeed be toward tangible measures... imo.

 

[idav]

In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter? Does quarreling over what beliefs are "right" and "wrong" really matter? Should the focus instead be on the tangible and measurable outcomes of belief (behavior)?

Discuss!

I'm one that strongly believes that actions speak louder than words. If it is truth then it should be able to stand up on its own.

 

[idea]

... how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. ...

you'd have to ask PSYOPS, or better yet, organizations like CNN and advertising agencies...

[youtube]N2HoTOWl9LU[/youtube]
CNN Shows U.S. PSYOPS Soilders How Its Done - YouTube

LOL - CNN instructed our PSYOPS teams in "influencing the emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of () audiences." - training with industry

"It was inappropriate for PSYOPS personnel to be at CNN, they are not here now, and they never again will be at CNN." - too bad for the PSYOPS teams, they could have learned a lot
~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
but yes, no denying the fact that beliefs readily translate into behavior....

 

[McBell]

This is why I don't put very much stock in what most people verbally express that they actually believe. What people really "believe" is more accurately conveyed through their actions than their words. In most things, I've learned to be highly skeptical of taking peoples' words at face value, and am more interested in what they're actually going to do, as opposed to what they say they're going to do. The two seem to have little correlation with most people.

Thus the underlying and often over looked depth of the phrase "mind what people do, not only what they say, for their actions can betray a lie."

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I think we should probably consider the distinction of separating at what level something will matter: Personal versus Global.

Beliefs for a given person are often not well understood because we don't often examine them critically. Rationality is a very difficult discipline and confronting your own biases is often accomplished (to the best of our knowledge) in a manner which is quite counter intuitive. Beliefs are only informative about persons inasmuch as they give us insight into how a person will act.


But when one starts to consider a paradigm instead of a personal set or code of beliefs then there is a much stronger impetus to consider beliefs as having a significant value. Someone previously mentioned that plane hijacker's that believed their actions were "God's will" indicated that beliefs did matter. I think this is a stronger indication of the value of a paradigm than of personal belief. What universe of discourse one is raised with often determines to a large extent what ideas we are willing to consider. Human creativity is limited, and so when what constraints to your thinking you adopt and find practical or useful will determine what you will continue to use in the future. This is probably why so many of the atheistic rants that start here on the forums focus so exclusively on Abrahamic versions of Monotheism; this was the paradigm within which they were raised and they objected to one or more of the consequences which seemed to follow from its being the dominant (though perhaps on the way out) paradigm of the area they grew up in.



I am also willing to argue that in terms of morality and several other important issues, that it is actually far less important how you arrive at an agreed set of actions than it is that you have an agreed set of actions. I also find explorations into things with little to not practical value (as of yet) to be a misapplication of human effort and resources. We should not be spending more money on sports than on science and we should not be spending more money on theoretical branches of science than on practical attempts to end cancer or world hunger.

MTF

 

[Bob Dixon]

I'd heard it before, but don't recall the source.
The example misses the link (albeit a tenuous one) between belief & action.
Moreover, the sons could've both been lying, making their beliefs unknown.

You're missing the point, man. It's supposed to be taken as a parable.