A masked turtle from Canuckistan is telling me that I'm missing the point?
Nah...I just think it's a lame parable.
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Do beliefs really matter?
- Thread starter Quintessence
- Start date
Nah...I just think it's a lame parable.
tariqkhwaja
Jihad Against Terrorism
Assalamualaikum.
So let it be understood that the Quran very early on highlights three types of people:
1. Mu'min: Believers who back their claims with actions.
2. Kafir: Disbelievers who back their claims with actions.
3. Munafiq: Hypocrites who (intentionally or because of weakness of faith) act contrary to their claims.
Both the second and third have a negative influence on mankind.
The second set have a negative influence because their beliefs give them a direction which directly harms mankind. For example the citizen who believes wholeheartedly that taking the law into his own hands and murdering innocents is, at times, a necessity. Such a person does not benefit the society because he thinks himself a just arbiter and thinks himself special thereby harming society with his personal sense of justice. And such people exist among the criminal world who genuinely believe they are ridding society of its scum. These are the disbelievers whose hearts have been sealed due to their insistence in their own false convictions. They neither see, nor hear, nor think honestly.
The third set is the likeness of a citizen who knows the second set to be wrong but can not stop himself from committing murder. He finds himself in a position so terrible and is put under so much pressure that he willfully breaks the law not because it is right but because his selfishness overcomes his sense of guilt. Thus he is a hypocrite and is worth decrying.
Those who benefit the society most then are those who believe in God and believe that they are accountable for their actions. Theirs is the case of a person who believes that they are monitored at every stage and act according to this belief by upholding the highest moral and spiritual values. Such people are a source of benefit to society rather than being a burden on society. It is they who not only uphold justice but go beyond that and, for the sake of their Lord, uphold kindness to the level of kinship. Nothing can stop them from doing good for their fellow human beings because their conviction in God has a strong foundation that no Earthquake can rattle.
In conclusion our belief, or our religion, is the direction we determine is the best while our actions are a display of how far we are willing to go in the correct direction.
So let it be understood that the Quran very early on highlights three types of people:
1. Mu'min: Believers who back their claims with actions.
2. Kafir: Disbelievers who back their claims with actions.
3. Munafiq: Hypocrites who (intentionally or because of weakness of faith) act contrary to their claims.
Both the second and third have a negative influence on mankind.
The second set have a negative influence because their beliefs give them a direction which directly harms mankind. For example the citizen who believes wholeheartedly that taking the law into his own hands and murdering innocents is, at times, a necessity. Such a person does not benefit the society because he thinks himself a just arbiter and thinks himself special thereby harming society with his personal sense of justice. And such people exist among the criminal world who genuinely believe they are ridding society of its scum. These are the disbelievers whose hearts have been sealed due to their insistence in their own false convictions. They neither see, nor hear, nor think honestly.
The third set is the likeness of a citizen who knows the second set to be wrong but can not stop himself from committing murder. He finds himself in a position so terrible and is put under so much pressure that he willfully breaks the law not because it is right but because his selfishness overcomes his sense of guilt. Thus he is a hypocrite and is worth decrying.
Those who benefit the society most then are those who believe in God and believe that they are accountable for their actions. Theirs is the case of a person who believes that they are monitored at every stage and act according to this belief by upholding the highest moral and spiritual values. Such people are a source of benefit to society rather than being a burden on society. It is they who not only uphold justice but go beyond that and, for the sake of their Lord, uphold kindness to the level of kinship. Nothing can stop them from doing good for their fellow human beings because their conviction in God has a strong foundation that no Earthquake can rattle.
In conclusion our belief, or our religion, is the direction we determine is the best while our actions are a display of how far we are willing to go in the correct direction.
Beliefs are very important as they are the only way we take in information. You believe something to be true and then you decide if you need to research it. You learn nothing as fact. All your senses can produce false truths. So you analyse all your information and then decided which is fact.
You can not take in any information without belief. You must believe the book, the teacher, your eyes once you believe them then you can store a fact.
We are not computers we are not programed with laws we create our own program and input our own data. Belief is what allows us to do this.
You can not take in any information without belief. You must believe the book, the teacher, your eyes once you believe them then you can store a fact.
We are not computers we are not programed with laws we create our own program and input our own data. Belief is what allows us to do this.
In discussions about beliefs, religious or otherwise, we can get into all sorts of arguments and disputes regarding what beliefs are correct and what beliefs are incorrect. One aspect is that is sometimes overlooked is how beliefs translate into tangible, meaningful, human behaviors. Individuals holding similar beliefs may manifest those beliefs into behaviors in radically different ways. It begs a question: do beliefs really matter? Does quarreling over what beliefs are "right" and "wrong" really matter? Should the focus instead be on the tangible and measurable outcomes of belief (behavior)?
Discuss!
One is as one's belief (knowledge) is.
There's lots of things to reply to in here, but I'm going to pick on you first.
I wonder if you're giving people too much credit. Even those of us who claim to be "rational" or "thinkers" don't actively filter all the information that comes at us on a day to day basis in the manner suggested above. I'm fairly certain it isn't physiologically possible for us to do so; we can only have so many loci of focus for our attention at a time and much of our cognitive function is automated, not willful. When I look outside and see the trees, I don't "believe" I am seeing trees; the process is much more passive than that, yes? I don't stop to ask "am I seeing trees?" every time I look out my window. Might we instead say that all information originates with sensation and then it is filtered sometimes by belief? Sometimes, as we don't actively think about every sensory input we witness?
atanu said:
This made me think of something else that hasn't been raised, IIRC. What happens when one is prohibited in some fashion from being as one believes? This happens sometimes in our world; people make certain ways of behaving taboo and then one cannot act in accord with one's beliefs. One gets constrained by environmental/cultural circumstances beyond one's control. I think of the history of religious oppression in various parts of the world in particular. Sometimes, for one reason or another, one cannot live as one's beliefs. :no:
Thanks to everyone else that has responded. Interesting stuff so far!
There's lots of things to reply to in here, but I'm going to pick on you first.
I wonder if you're giving people too much credit. Even those of us who claim to be "rational" or "thinkers" don't actively filter all the information that comes at us on a day to day basis in the manner suggested above. I'm fairly certain it isn't physiologically possible for us to do so; we can only have so many loci of focus for our attention at a time and much of our cognitive function is automated, not willful. When I look outside and see the trees, I don't "believe" I am seeing trees; the process is much more passive than that, yes? I don't stop to ask "am I seeing trees?" every time I look out my window. Might we instead say that all information originates with sensation and then it is filtered sometimes by belief? Sometimes, as we don't actively think about every sensory input we witness?
Think of it this way. Not with all your knowledge that you have already collected but as a child seeing a tree for the first time. Mom and Dad tells the child that it is a tree. The child accepts it as a belief not a fact. Is everything mom and dad tells the child a fact. The child will then hear tree multiple times by multiple people and eventually understand it as a fact.
If the child was not willing to believe Mom and Dad he would never learn the term tree.
Most of what you call logic was accepted as a true belief and then you used your method to verify it(hopefully). What most people complain about with belief is that some never verify it. Everything Mom and Dad says is a fact.
Ah, I see what you're getting at better now, bobhikes. I think we can still question how much "choice" we really have in making some of these judgements, though, particularly when we're that young. In other words, willingness to believe is in some cases a non-issue. Responses can get conditioned without our willingness to accept them or conscious choice in the matter. How much do we really choose our beliefs?
It was said once to me - I forget where - that it is wise to recognize that if we were born in America, we're likely to have been raised Christian, aid if we were born in India, we're likely to have been raised in Buddhist or Hindu traditions. This is not choice, but circumstance. How much do we really choose our beliefs? I suppose if you don't believe in free will, the answer is "we don't." We inherit it all as a product of our environments and the choice is an illusion. But I think the free will and determinism issue throws another bomb into this discussion that I have an urge to leave alone.
It was said once to me - I forget where - that it is wise to recognize that if we were born in America, we're likely to have been raised Christian, aid if we were born in India, we're likely to have been raised in Buddhist or Hindu traditions. This is not choice, but circumstance. How much do we really choose our beliefs? I suppose if you don't believe in free will, the answer is "we don't." We inherit it all as a product of our environments and the choice is an illusion. But I think the free will and determinism issue throws another bomb into this discussion that I have an urge to leave alone.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
You don't think that that is an overly general definition of "belief" for the purposes of this thread? I think most of us are aware that epistemically we are limited to belief (with the possible exception of tautology/contradiction), but I don't think it is informative to take such a general stance on this issue.
While it might be true that earth does not exist I think for practical discussions of what is worthwhile to do that one must assume that earth is in fact real. If you actually went around questioning whether or not earth existed or that that wall in front of you were real, then not only your actions would change significantly (almost certainly to the detriment), but you would also almost certainly lose your mind to some form of insanity (detachment from the world?).
Most people when talking about "beliefs" are talking about subjective opinions and not those things which are objectively verifiable given an internally consistent set of strong propositions (like mathematics or gravity exists).
MTF
I think it suits the thread perfectly, Do beliefs matter?
I also am not questioning facts or reality, I am simply stating the only way you can learn facts is through belief first. This makes belief very important, who you believe and what you believe is going to frame what you learn.
When born most of your learning comes from your parents if you have kids you know you have to watch what you say because they take all you say literally as truth. They will eventually learn that you can be wrong and will start to compare or search for the truth.
Not only is belief important in youth but as adults we built or lives around our beliefs. It has lead a few adults to pyschologists and even death just because their beliefs are challenged or unchallenged.
Belief is not faith maybe you equate the two.
idea
Question Everything
this is true -
not seeing is believing, but
believing is seeing...
cognitive dissonance - we see and hear what we believe.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I would not have claimed it a lame parable as it has significant meaning separating intentions from actions but i agree with you it has nothing to do with beliefs.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I think this is the best answer!
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
There's lots of things to reply to in here, but I'm going to pick on you first.
This made me think of something else that hasn't been raised, IIRC. What happens when one is prohibited in some fashion from being as one believes? This happens sometimes in our world; people make certain ways of behaving taboo and then one cannot act in accord with one's beliefs. One gets constrained by environmental/cultural circumstances beyond one's control. I think of the history of religious oppression in various parts of the world in particular. Sometimes, for one reason or another, one cannot live as one's beliefs. :no:
No actually. One is still living as per one's belief that thre are others who oppose him.
I think people tend to be more lenient on themselves minus the guilt afterward. Our standards are always higher for others until we try and step into their shoes.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
The "Fact" that earth exists was not ever predicated on belief as I understand the common sense notion of the term to mean. I never once questioned the existence of the earth as a child; I didn't believe that the earth existed; it just was. It was extant fact that earth existed because I sensed it.
Now you might drag out the old aphorism: "Seeing is believing" at this point; to which I would respond by saying there is a difference between subconscious or even non-conscious belief formations which are predicated on sensory information and the kind of conscious belief formations born out of experience in dealing with a predictable world.
When you point out that "non-conscious or subconscious belief formations are at the root of Everything" you have effectively rendered the notion of belief vacuous as everything is that thing. Things are defined by what they are not. So while I am perfectly willing to grant that in that sense "beliefs are important" it doesn't actually convey anything useful. It is practically tautological. Yes, you must believe that your senses do not betray you 100% of the time Is it possible that they do? Sure, but why bother considering this when it is impossible to know otherwise?
So I think it is much more useful to talk about conscious belief formations where you form your subjective opinion on some attribution or facet of the world around you. Do these "really matter?" And there as I said before I think it matters depending on which level of interaction you speak of: personal or global (paradigm).
MTF
You were a remarkable child. Most of us aren't that remarkable.