Do humans have a spirit?

[Ben Avraham]

1 I quoted the whole chapter (Gen 18). Read the chapter. Nowhere does it state he was dreaming or experiencing a vision. You are assuming he did, therefore adding that important detail to the text. Preparing a calf itself is reason enough to eliminate any dream or vision.

Sorry but you are not the only poster I am debating with. You have to read chapter 18 of Genesis and focus on the issue you want to discuss.

2 Have you not read your own Tanach? (In the NT, Jesus said something similar to the Pharisees ). Prophets will still exist in Israel during the New Covenant period:

Yes, but I am not a computer.

Joe 2:27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame. Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.

But those dreams and visions are not of the kind of Numbers 12:6​

3 Yeah and all grass is purple. We can claim anything. Contextually proving your claims from the evidence of "all" the scriptures on a topic is where credibility is earned.

4 Im not so sure you even read what is written (see point 2) . Even when you do read what is written, it is read out of context and you add to the text, as has been exposed for all to see in my previous posts.

5 Oh so now its literal in a dream, when before it was not literal at all? Your inconsistency is duly noted. Unfortunately for you ,it matches your interpretive method. Shalom

Shalom

 

[james2ko]

Sorry but you are not the only poster I am debating with. You have to read chapter 18 of Genesis and focus on the issue you want to discuss.

1 It's not my problem you got in over your head with discussions. You are the one claiming Abraham's encounter with the three men was a vision or dream, when Gen 18 reflects no such thing. The burden of proof is on you, my brother.

Yes, but I am not a computer.

2 ?????

But those dreams and visions are not of the kind of Numbers 12:6

3 Another baseless claim? Bad habits die hard

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 It's not my problem you got in over your head with discussions. You are the one claiming Abraham's encounter with the three men was a vision or dream, when Gen 18 reflects no such thing. The burden of proof is on you, my brother. Another baseless claim? Bad habits die hard

All I have asked is that you pinpoint in Genesis 18 what you have in mind. If it is about the so-called angels who came to visit Abraham and predicted the birth of Isaac, and the bargain Abraham struck with HaShem on how to save Sodom and Gomorrah, there is no doubt about it. It all happened during a dream. The Tanach would not contradict itself in Numbers 12:6 as the method decided by HaShem to reveal Himself to his prophets.

 

[james2ko]

All I have asked is that you pinpoint in Genesis 18 what you have in mind. If it is about the so-called angels who came to visit Abraham and predicted the birth of Isaac, and the bargain Abraham struck with HaShem on how to save Sodom and Gomorrah, there is no doubt about it. It all happened during a dream. The Tanach would not contradict itself in Numbers 12:6 as the method decided by HaShem to reveal Himself to his prophets.

You make baseless claims then try to put the burden of proof on your opponent. That may work with others but not here, my friend. I refuted your interpretation of Abraham's encounter being a dream or vision and your interpretation of Num 12:6. I don't expect you to accept it, but perhaps some of the lurkers will. They will also see how our discussion has exposed your inconsistency and non-contextual reading of theTanach. Perhaps a good time to change your forum username again?

 

[rusra02]

Then how do yo explain this verse?:
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The context shows that Jesus was discussing a new birth through God's Holy Spirit.

 

[Jlbevin2]

The Hebrew word for "spirit" in this verse means breath. That's all. Just like "soul" means a living, breathing frame or person, someone who is alive. We are not given a soul, we are a soul. Same with spirit. Spirit, like soul, can also be written in many different ways. But never something that is given us. Spirit can also be written as mind or a way of thinking too.

Very well said but for a more practicle application for, that is a more beneficial understanding to help lay aside sin, understanding the purpose of salvation and judgement the question isn't what is the spirit but what is the flesh. We are told in the book of Romans a servant of God is one who controls his members or body. That informs us of a division of body and spirit. After a life time of study and a relationship with Christ I understand the body has absolutely no intelligence. It is merely a covering for our spirit. A covering that allows us to exist in this heaven that was created in the book of Genesis. If you remove this garment from your spirit you will then see that the senses of the flesh send data to the brain which in turn relays it to our spirit for interputation. Touch, heat, cold, sight, hearing, etc: etc: are all in the spirit. Blink your eyes or move your arms, pinch yourself or kiss your wife or child, they are all in the spirit. Our brain has zero intelligence just an instrument to relay information to the spiritual brain where the breath of life abides.
When our great profet was caught up into the heaven he said " Lord sin is upon my lips" for he had shed the flesh but unschooled in the ways where he was. All people that have had near death events see there lifeless unintelligence body.
Moreover our bodies must abide in this heaven where Satin is the God of this world, Prince of the air.
I can go on and on speaking of how the knowing of spirit and flesh ties to doctrines of casting out devils, laying hold of salvation, entering into the Kingdom of God, the Glory of Jesus Christ, etc:, etc:, but need to cut it short.
In conclusion if you didn't have a spirit you wouldn't exist because you are your spirit.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You make baseless claims then try to put the burden of proof on your opponent. That may work with others but not here, my friend. I refuted your interpretation of Abraham's encounter being a dream or vision and your interpretation of Num 12:6. I don't expect you to accept it, but perhaps some of the lurkers will. They will also see how our discussion has exposed your inconsistency and non-contextual reading of theTanach. Perhaps a good time to change your forum username again?

It won't help you to slander a Jew on an interpretation of his own gospel aka the Tanach. If I was interpreting the NT in a way against your Christian preconceived notions, you could have some credibility but not interfering with a Jew in his own Bible. You would be the one to be charged with vandalism against my Faith by using Christian tools.

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 It's not my problem you got in over your head with discussions. You are the one claiming Abraham's encounter with the three men was a vision or dream, when Gen 18 reflects no such thing. The burden of proof is on you, my brother.

There was indeed a problem here with the discussion and a mistake was made without my being aware of. That's why from now on, I won't reply to a long post any more; perhaps only to the main paragraph of the post. I can't explain how I made that mistake. But, of one thing I am sure, the encounter of Abraham with the angels was on a dream, not literal. I won't let you contradict the Torah if I can prevent it.

 

[moorea944]

Very well said but for a more practicle application for, that is a more beneficial understanding to help lay aside sin, understanding the purpose of salvation and judgement the question isn't what is the spirit but what is the flesh. We are told in the book of Romans a servant of God is one who controls his members or body. That informs us of a division of body and spirit. After a life time of study and a relationship with Christ I understand the body has absolutely no intelligence. It is merely a covering for our spirit. A covering that allows us to exist in this heaven that was created in the book of Genesis. If you remove this garment from your spirit you will then see that the senses of the flesh send data to the brain which in turn relays it to our spirit for interputation. Touch, heat, cold, sight, hearing, etc: etc: are all in the spirit. Blink your eyes or move your arms, pinch yourself or kiss your wife or child, they are all in the spirit. Our brain has zero intelligence just an instrument to relay information to the spiritual brain where the breath of life abides.
When our great profet was caught up into the heaven he said " Lord sin is upon my lips" for he had shed the flesh but unschooled in the ways where he was. All people that have had near death events see there lifeless unintelligence body.
Moreover our bodies must abide in this heaven where Satin is the God of this world, Prince of the air.
I can go on and on speaking of how the knowing of spirit and flesh ties to doctrines of casting out devils, laying hold of salvation, entering into the Kingdom of God, the Glory of Jesus Christ, etc:, etc:, but need to cut it short.
In conclusion if you didn't have a spirit you wouldn't exist because you are your spirit.

People want to believe in something else, something extra. a soul or a spirit that is separate from the body, not knowing that both words can be written in different ways. Adam was a soul when he became alive, he wasn't given one. And with spirit. People take things out of context instead of going with scripture. Same with death. People don't want to hear, when your dead, your dead. And that is what the bible tells us. We cease to exist until resurrection. But people don't want to hear that, they want to hear life goes on in death. And that is the opposite of God's ways. The whole bible is about a coming kingdom that will be "set up" on earth. Nothing about heaven going. That is why we wait for the resurrection. Scripture tells us that the first thing that Jesus is going to do when he "comes back", is raise the dead.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This is the most intelligent post I have seen in a long time. People will go to any length to try to show how the Bible does not mean what it says. This is mainly a result of the Satan inspired religions that control the vast majority of humans, including the religions that call themselves "christian" but teach things that are far different from what is in the Bible.

 

[Cobol]

Most of human history we have had no idea of have our brains worked. Humans have falsely believed inferred that we have souls, and this idea has infused our folklore, cultures, myths, religions and has instructed our interpretation of dreams.

Souls and spirits do not exist. Our bodies run themselves. We know from cases of brain damage and the effects of psychoactive drugs that our experiences are caused by physical chemistry acting on physical neurones in our brains. Our innermost self is our biochemical self.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Most of human history we have had no idea of have our brains worked. Humans have falsely believed inferred that we have souls, and this idea has infused our folklore, cultures, myths, religions and has instructed our interpretation of dreams.

Souls and spirits do not exist. Our bodies run themselves. We know from cases of brain damage and the effects of psychoactive drugs that our experiences are caused by physical chemistry acting on physical neurones in our brains. Our innermost self is our biochemical self.

I want to agree with you on that one regarding the soul. Indeed, souls and spirits according to Christian assumptions do not exist. Spirits are emanations and souls are ourselves. If you read Genesis 2:7, when HaShem formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul. To become is not to have but to be. It means we are souls. Each one of us is a soul. We don't have souls. Indeed, souls are not something that exist independently by themselves. When man dies, that's the soul that died.

 

[MHz]

I say yes, because the bible says so. Ecclesiastes 12:7, King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When that same Spirit returns at the resurrection that same person is made immortal so there will never be a separation of the dust from the Spirit again.

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Most of human history we have had no idea of have our brains worked. Humans have falsely believed inferred that we have souls, and this idea has infused our folklore, cultures, myths, religions and has instructed our interpretation of dreams.

Souls and spirits do not exist. Our bodies run themselves. We know from cases of brain damage and the effects of psychoactive drugs that our experiences are caused by physical chemistry acting on physical neurones in our brains. Our innermost self is our biochemical self.

Spirits are emanations. We have many different spirits and, for souls, independently, you are right, they do not exist. When HaShem formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and man BECAME a living soul. To become is not to have but to be. (Genesis 2:7) So, we don't have a soul, we are souls. Soul is the combination of the breath of life with the body. At death, the body goes back to the dust and the soul ceases to exist. That's the end of man.

 

[Muffled]

The context shows that Jesus was discussing a new birth through God's Holy Spirit.

I believe that means a spirit can be in a body.

Then we have this one:
Mat. 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

Certainly the body isn't going anywhere but in the ground so a sprit must be present to go to Heaven where its treasure is.

 

[Muffled]

People want to believe in something else, something extra. a soul or a spirit that is separate from the body, not knowing that both words can be written in different ways. Adam was a soul when he became alive, he wasn't given one. And with spirit. People take things out of context instead of going with scripture. Same with death. People don't want to hear, when your dead, your dead. And that is what the bible tells us. We cease to exist until resurrection. But people don't want to hear that, they want to hear life goes on in death. And that is the opposite of God's ways. The whole bible is about a coming kingdom that will be "set up" on earth. Nothing about heaven going. That is why we wait for the resurrection. Scripture tells us that the first thing that Jesus is going to do when he "comes back", is raise the dead.

I don't believe you get much of that from the Bible. You can get that the body dies. Pretty much everyone knows that.

 

[Muffled]

This is the most intelligent post I have seen in a long time. People will go to any length to try to show how the Bible does not mean what it says. This is mainly a result of the Satan inspired religions that control the vast majority of humans, including the religions that call themselves "christian" but teach things that are far different from what is in the Bible.

I believe the opposite is true. One must go to great lengths to show what the Bible really says as opposed to some superficial cursory view that is shallow and nonsensical.

I believe one would be hard put to prove religions are satanically inspired. More likely people just get confused or don't really study the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

[rusra02]

I believe that means a spirit can be in a body.

Then we have this one:
Mat. 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

Certainly the body isn't going anywhere but in the ground so a sprit must be present to go to Heaven where its treasure is.

The treasures Christians are to store up in heaven are God's approval and the good name we acquire with God, IMO. Just as Jesus resurrected persons back to life on earth, he will do so when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out." (John 5:28,29) It is not necessary for the resurrected to go to heaven to attain eternal life, and enjoy God's blessing. In fact, I believe God purposes for humans to live forever on earth. (Revelation 21:3,4)

 

[Muffled]

The treasures Christians are to store up in heaven are God's approval and the good name we acquire with God, IMO. Just as Jesus resurrected persons back to life on earth, he will do so when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out." (John 5:28,29) It is not necessary for the resurrected to go to heaven to attain eternal life, and enjoy God's blessing. In fact, I believe God purposes for humans to live forever on earth. (Revelation 21:3,4)

I believe that serves as a partial list.

I believe I went to Heaven after my previous life. I believe the reason is quite valid. My previous life was traumatic and I needed a rest from the evils of this world. Staying with a dead body is boring and staying in the world is a torment because those worldly things are not available to a spirit. However eternal life in a world without evil is definitely my cup of tea and I look forward to it.

 

[MJFlores]

I say yes, because the bible says so. Ecclesiastes 12:7, King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

The body rots and returns to the ground
Ecclesiastes 12:7Contemporary English Version (CEV)

So our bodies return
to the earth,
and the life-giving breath
returns to God.

The soul clings to the dust

Psalm 119:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
My soul clings to the dust;
Revive me according to Your word.

The spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it

shava? Rom 16:16?