Do ideas exist?

[Quintessence]

I think there's a way to know: find an idea that exists independently of anything else... an idea that isn't existing as an activity of a brain, as a communication as an arrangement of characters in a book or whatnot, etc. If an idea is found existing independently of anything else, then we'll know that ideas don't have to be attributes.

This is an impossible ask for a couple reasons. First, because of human limitations when it comes to sensation and perception or how we can study the world around us. Second, because it seems there is no such thing as independent existence as all reality (however that is defined) is interconnected. It is not a thing we can know; we can only pick the story we like and run with it (or not) as we see fit.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do ideas exist? What does your perspective imply for what "existence" means?

I believe ideas arises. They don't exist one moment, then the next moment they arises in to the mind.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Great thread topic. Thanks, Quintessence!

I think in order to have a productive discussion on this topic, it's important to acknowledge that "ideas exist" is a useful way to think about the world. For example, it is difficult to describe human events without imagining ideas exist, float around, and influence human behavior.

So, for those who would argue "ideas do not exist", they need to acknowledge that is a counter-intuitive claim and will require a lot of work to convince others.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course ideas exist. This can be objectively verified
in discussion with others with ideas. Existence needn't
be limited to anything as physical as a rock or log.
It can also be a phenomenon...an interaction of energy
& matter, eg, F=ma, Boyle's Law, life. Anyone who can't
agree that those things/relationships exist is a poopy head.
(Yes, I had to go there.)

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

hmmm...ideas exist as emergent properties of the process of living, perhaps even of consciousness (which may itself be emergent)...metaphorically like bubbles of steam in boiling water, or carbonation in beer or soda...they briefly exist within a context, and then cease

 

[QuestioningMind]

Do ideas exist? What does your perspective imply for what "existence" means?

The only idea that exists is the idea that ideas don't exist.

 

[Cooky]

Why do we say these things don't exist, then? If it is so weird and counterintuitive, if not illogical, why describe things that way? Is it an oddity of our language and its limits? Do we just not care about the contradiction here?

If we can spread non-existence, it might make one wonder what other roles non-existence (ideas) plays in the universe...

...Unless we think we are unique!

 

[Cooky]

hmmm...ideas exist as emergent properties of the process of living, perhaps even of consciousness (which may itself be emergent)...metaphorically like bubbles of steam in boiling water, or carbonation in beer or soda...they briefly exist within a context, and then cease

The idea of Jesus Christ hasn't "ceased" in 2000 years. So maybe breifness isn't a quality.

 

[Cooky]

Of course ideas exist. This can be objectively verified
in discussion with others with ideas. Existence needn't
be limited to anything as physical as a rock or log.
It can also be a phenomenon...an interaction of energy
& matter, eg, F=ma, Boyle's Law, life. Anyone who can't
agree that those things/relationships exist is a poopy head.
(Yes, I had to go there.)

Unicorns are an idea. So does that mean unicorns "exist"?

...Or maybe idea's actually don't exist.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That is kind of how I view things. It is its own brand of weird, and many don't really understand it, but that's okay. I don't know if I can do a good job of explaining it anyway.

Maybe only awesome people like us can understand it?

 

[Revoltingest]

God is an idea. So does God exist?

God, Bullwinkle, Allah, Harry Potter, Cthulhu, Gandalf, Krom,
Thor, Voldemort, & Homer Simpson, all exist as ideas.

 

[Brickjectivity]

How exactly could an idea exist without someone thinking it? How woulf a pre-existent "idea" that's never been thought by anyone even be an idea?

As you know ideas are represented in our brains which are made of neural tissue. The ideas themselves are empty forms and immaterial. You also know that people make discoveries of the same ideas, sometimes. This suggests the ideas may be discovered rather than created. If this is semantically uncomfortable another way of putting it is that we are talking about the potential of an idea to exist. That potential is not created but pre-exists the appearance of the idea in one's mind.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think there's a way to know: find an idea that exists independently of anything else... an idea that isn't existing as an activity of a brain, as a communication as an arrangement of characters in a book or whatnot, etc. If an idea is found existing independently of anything else, then we'll know that ideas don't have to be attributes.

I see it kinda like colour: can you show me the colour blue without showing me something that is blue?

Yeah... I know that some people see the world as expressions of ideas... Platonic forms and the like. I geberally don't see these sorts of worldviews as reasonable.

I think it's important to check whether someone is a physicalist, or not.

I.e., do you believe that the existence of matter and energy in the universe and the laws that govern their behavior, is sufficient in principle to produce ... by an unfathomable chain of causation ... all human behavior and experience?

If a person does believe that, then they sort of have to believe that "ideas" do not exist per se. Or, if they do "exist", they must mean ideas "exist" in the same sense that computer software exists, or birdsong exists, or energy exists. It is a large-scale pattern of behavior generated by all the small-scale particles of physics obeying the laws of physics. But, it is a special pattern. It is a pattern that can travel through different mediums and interact in very interesting, complex ways. A hurricane, for example, exists as an identifiable pattern that emerges from the unfathomable interaction of countless atoms in the atmosphere. But an idea is a little different: it can move in time and space in very interesting ways. It can modify the behavior of information-processors (computers, humans, animals) in very interesting ways. All of those ways obey the laws of physics and are - again - a consequence of an unfathomable number of physical interactions.

But, it must be acknowledged that "ideas" are so interesting, and so complicated, that even if you think they "do not exist" you have to acknowledge that the day-to-day experience of apes like ourselves, is exceedingly difficult to explain or understand without pretending they exist. Just as the path of a hurricane is almost impossible to chart atom-by-atom.

From my perspective, as a physicalist / materialist, it is extremely interesting that we live in a universe where it is possible for emergent patterns like hurricanes and "ideas" to come into existence from the operation of uncountable atoms obeying simple laws. It has to be acknowledged, that you would not necessarily expect that to be the case.

Does energy "exist"? Does light "exist"? Does information "exist"? I would argue yes, but, that they come into existence in a very interesting way from the operation of countless particles obeying the laws of physics.

If you are not a physicalist ... then the discussion is less interesting (in my opinion) because you can simply say they exist. And you don't face this incredible (impossible?) counter-intuitive notion that countless particles could give rise to such phenomena.

 

[Father Heathen]

Things don't need to be corporeal to be real. Radio waves, digital software, light, sound, etc. certainty exist.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree with the yes and no answer. It seems to be depending on the context. Harry Potter, most people would agree I think, is an existing concept, story and even material book. But does not exist as a person or individual entity. There's even rules for how Harry Potter functions and what he can do, but only as agreed upon definitions by people as they interpret the idea.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Things don't need to be corporeal to be real. Radio waves, digital software, light, sound, etc. certainty exist.

Those things are all corporeal though, aren't they? In that they have material properties.

 

[sun rise]

Do ideas exist? What does your perspective imply for what "existence" means?

Down the rabbit hole I go. Take your pick of one or more of the thoughts I had on the OP:

Only God exists, everything else, including ideas, is illusion.

Ideas don't exist because just like the taste of lunch, they fade sooner or later (later maybe a long time).

Ideas exist and one of the things the Avatar does is to clean creation from the accumulated morass of thought forms that have accumulated since his last incarnation.

Ideas exist because brain activity while thoughts are occurring can be measured.

Ideas exist because expressing them can have consequences.

 

[Cooky]

God, Bullwinkle, Allah, Harry Potter, Cthulhu, Gandalf, Krom,
Thor, Voldemort, & Homer Simpson, all exist as ideas.

All things that cannot be measured, no weight, no atoms... It's nothing.

 

[McBell]

All things that cannot be measured, no weight, no atoms... It's nothing.

Except that they are actually measured.
In fact, you measure them in claiming they are nothing.

 

[Onoma]

If ideas come from perception, and perception comes from the sum of the stimulus we receive through our sensory inputs, which in turn are measurements our body makes then turns into electrical signals that are transmitted to the brain ...

..where they are ultimately stored

When a memory is created, information flows from the cortex to the hippocampus, the central switching point for memories in the brain. The information flows in the opposite direction when we retrieve a stored memory

If this is true, is an idea not the sum of complex calculations in the brain based on real world parameters ?