If you identify as Christian and have the appropriate DIR selected in your profile, you can post in the Christianity DIR. Not sure who told you different.
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Do JW baptisms count?
- Thread starter filthyrottendirty
- Start date
If you identify as Christian and have the appropriate DIR selected in your profile, you can post in the Christianity DIR. Not sure who told you different.
I'd break bread with you.
Its not dead. Its just not a debate area. Its more for prayers and exhortations or talking about the weather. To get access you need to put a check in the 'Abrahamic' box in your account details. Like I said, there's no debate allowed there; so people kind of scratch their heads and wonder what to post.
Yes, but they are not Christians, right?
Anyone who defines themselves as a Christian is a Christian.
However, validly administered baptism - the sacramental bond of unity of the faithful in every church body, incorporating them into the body of Christ - and espousal of Trinitarian faith according to the first ecumenical councils of the early church (the Nicene Faith), are considered the linchpins of membership of Christ's Church in mainstream orthodox Christianity.
As a Catholic, I view members of non-Trinitarian ecclesial bodies as fellow Christians but unorthodox ones that have not been validly baptized with the right form, wording and intention by the celebrating minister.
So, I would caution that one must distinguish here between Christianity and what mainstream churches regard as constituting 'orthodox Christianity', which only applies to our dogma.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
No it is not. They do not have the same understanding of the trinity at all.
No non trinitarian baptism is acceptable to trinitarian churches.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, that was my point.
I think that catholics are still trying to get over the bloody reformation, and its taking a little longer than expected. They also worry that they could become contaminated if they don't keep their doctrinal standards. They also put a lot of store in the idea of a chain of apostles.
This is a bit like asking if a prospective Muslim can take shahada in a Nizari jama'at khana.
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OK....I’ll give this thread my 2 cents worth, since I am the only one here (so far) qualified to answer the question.....
Can I ask first of all why you would want to be baptized by JW’s?
What do you believe baptism means? And why would you assume that we would baptized those who may not conform to the Bible’s requirements?
You see, whilst the mainstream churches may argue that we are not Christians....we actually believe that the opposite is true. We see Christendom as the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable, because most of their beliefs and conduct are borrowed from many of the world’s pagan religions, so we don’t understand how they can even claim to be Christ’s followers in the first place....
One has to be “doing the will of the Father”....not just making claims without actions .....and I don’t mean rocking up to a building and having someone put a wafer in your mouth. It has to be a living faith that is undertaken 24/7, affecting every facet of your life.Jesus himself warned that those who claim him as their “Lord”, if they failed to do what God tells them to do, will be rejected outright at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)
If you read the scriptures, you will see what Jesus taught his followers, and make the comparison.
For starters, Jesus never taught that he was part of a triune “godhead”....a word that does not even exist in scripture. (John 17:3)
To substitute another “god” in equal standing with the Father is a breach of the first commandment....on its own, this precludes any who hold this to be true, as disqualified from being a Christian. And that is just one aspect.....there are many more. Like the bloodshed sanctioned by the churches in the many wars fought and the death of many innocent ones in the process. (Isaiah 1:15)
The hopelessly fragmented state of “Christianity” is exactly what Jesus warned about....”weeds” grow so much more prolifically than other plants, because they need less nutrients to flourish...in fact they will grow in places that “wheat” would never survive. True Christians do not have divided beliefs...they must all agree. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Unity and love is their identifying mark, not division. (John 13:24-25)
To be baptized as a Christian, you first have to know what Jesus taught and then make a commitment to comply with those teachings....all of them, not just the convenient ones. It’s a cramped and narrow road, so it takes courage to make that commitment. (Matthew 7:13-14)
No one can be baptized as a JW unless they do so by willingly accepting all that the Bible teaches....not what the churches teach.
I hope that has answered you question....
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I can't speak for what another poster meant, but I use similar language, and can explain. Faith-based systems are not tied to physical reality. They don't require evidence. This is why there are some 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone. There's no requirement to support any claim made.
By contrast, evidence-based systems lead to conclusions constrained by reality. That's why we only have one periodic table of the elements. One can only believe variations someone might create on it by faith.
You can "simply pick" your denomination, but there's only one periodic table.
As the Patron Saint of mediocrity, I absolve you (Amadeus movie).
OK....I’ll give this thread my 2 cents worth, since I am the only one here (so far) qualified to answer the question.....
Can I ask first of all why you would want to be baptized by JW’s?
What do you believe baptism means? And why would you assume that we would baptized those who do not conform to the Bible’s requirements?
You see, whilst the mainstream churches may argue that we are not Christians....we actually believe that the opposite is true. We see Christendom as the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable, because most of their beliefs and conduct are borrowed from many of the world’s pagan religions, so we don’t understand how they can even claim to be Christ’s followers in the first place....
Jesus himself warned that those who claim him as their “Lord”, if they failed to do what God tells them to do, will be rejected outright at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)
If you read the scriptures, you will see what Jesus taught his followers, and make the comparison.
For starters, Jesus never taught that he was part of a triune “godhead”....a word that does not even exist in scripture. (John 17:3)
To substitute another “god” in equal standing with the Father is a breach of the first commandment....on its own, this precludes any who hold this to be true, as disqualified from being a Christian. And that is just one aspect.....there are many more. Like the bloodshed sanctioned by the churches in the many wars fought and the death of many innocent ones in the process. (Isaiah 1:15)
The hopelessly fragmented state of “Christianity” is exactly what Jesus warned about....”weeds” grow so much more prolifically than other plants, because they need less nutrients to flourish...in fact they will grow in places that “wheat” would never survive. True Christians do not have divided beliefs...they must all agree. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Unity and love is their identifying mark, not division. (John 13:24-25)
To be baptized as a Christian, you first have to know what Jesus taught and then make a commitment to comply with those teachings....all of them, not just the convenient ones. It’s a cramped and narrow road, so it takes courage to make that commitment. (Matthew 7:13-14)
No one can be baptized as a JW unless they do so by willingly accepting all that the Bible teaches....not what the churches teach.
I hope that has answered you question....
I wear a plastic flower that squirts water. I spend my time saving sinners.
Actually we can't save anyone.....(1 Corinthians 3:6-7)....all we can do is offer the Bible's message of salvation by means of God's kingdom....and allow God to open hearts....it is he who invites people into his spiritual family. (John 6:65)
Matthew 24:14, as part of Jesus' prophesy on the "time of the end" he said that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the nations" before "the end" of the current system of things takes place. I have not found any other people who are known the world over for doing just that. It was a command, not an option. (Matthew 28:19-20)
The churches only seem to offer excuses for why they don't preach. (Matthew 10:11-14)....perhaps believing that charities are a substitute for carrying out 'the great commission'. Since Jesus said that he would back this work, why are the churches all MIA in this regard?
People's lives are involved, so there is an obligation on all who identify as Christ's followers. God will hold us accountable for neglecting it. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)
I have no idea how a plastic flower that squirts water has any place in 'saving sinners'. The only way to save sinners, according to the example of Christ and his apostles, is to help them with reasons not to continue sinning....to give them motivation to do better....and we have to go out and search for them the way Jesus and his disciples did. (Acts 5:42; 20:20)
A church is not a building....it is the people who are taught by Christ and are actively and unitedly representing their Master by obediently carrying out his teachings as one united brotherhood in the world, where all are in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Trinitarian language comes from Constantine. Many thought it as strange back then
as they do today.
There are many Christians like me who haven't got a clue what it's supposed to mean.
And there's many different trinities in the bible, just as there's plenty of sevens and
twelves.
But JW's have a decidedly non-Christian perspective on things, such as Jesus being
the Archangel Michael.
firedragon
Veteran Member
But the 40,000 plus sects dont differ in such foundational doctrine like the divide between the JW's and Catholics/Protestants.
Try not to make sweeping generalisations to everything. It's not fair for those who are in it. If you want to know why someone believes in their particular denomination, ask. Dismissing saying "there are many others" means you just want to dismiss all of them anyway which is understandable, but then its better not to say anything whatsoever. Its illogical.
Can you tell me what's "non-Christian" about it? Jesus is a created being (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-17)...he is described as the "only begotten son of God" but not the only "son of God". Angels are sons of God too, so why can't the pre-human Jesus be Michael?...the Commander in Chief of the angelic forces?
Please show me scripture that makes it impossible....?
If you want to become a JW, get a Bible study and depending on how you progress, you might decide to get baptised down the line.
But if you're looking to get baptized and be recognized as a Christian by other religions out there, that's not going to happen, so ask yourself "why" before you make any decision.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Take note of this
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not
perish, but have everlasting life."
ONLY through Him. He's not Michael the archangel. He is Jesus, the same yesterday, today and tomorrw.
AlexanderG
Active Member
I wasn't dismissing these different views. I was saying that they seem arbitrary and subjective, which doesn't necessarily mean I dismiss them because some subjective ideas have great rationales. It simply means that there is no objective basis to label one set of religious beliefs more "true" than other other. Whether or not someone agrees with you depends on whether they share your same subjective goals and values, same as with any other moral system.
I see forms of Christianity that disagree on everything, from the trinity, to how one is saved, to whether there is a hell or annihilation or purgatory, to whether and how to baptize, to sources of authority, to Satan, to how to interpret different scriptures, to god's nature and desires, to whether Jesus was more than a man, etc etc. Early Christian sects even believed Jesus and Yaweh were different gods, but they were wiped out.
I think the comments in this thread have backed me up on this. Anyone can believe nearly anything and label themselves a Christian, and no one can ultimately or objectively gainsay them and their beliefs. You can just interpret some feeling as the holy spirit telling you that everyone is else wrong and you're right. It's all subjective. Hence my suggesting that the thread author just believe whatever they like and then post hoc find some scriptural interpretation that reinforces their view. That seems the standard practice.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I am curious to know which sect this is. Just a clarification.
What 'they' are you referring to?
Its not a 'chain of apostles', but the Apostolic body of teaching that is handed on through the generations through the body of bishops.
One of the functions of the bishops is to teach, and it is in this teaching, the apostolic teaching, that represents the unbroken chain to the teaching of the Apostles.
Apostolic succession according to Vatican II (Lumen Gentium #20) refers not to the bishops succeeding to an individual apostle but rather to the episcopal college as a whole succeeding to the mission of the apostolic college. Apostolic succession is not really to be understood as a succession of one individual to another, but rather as a succession in the church, to an episcopal see and to membership of the episcopal college, as shown by the lists of bishops.
As for the 'list' of bishops, they signify nothing nothing more for the life and consciousness of the Church than does a genealogical chart for a centuries old family, its life does not depend upon the genealogical chart of its ancestors, its importance is as a symbol reinforcing a certain spiritual attitude, an admonition to those who bore witness before them.