74x12
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. You should be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
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Do JW baptisms count?
- Thread starter filthyrottendirty
- Start date
Thanks for that clarification and also the book The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible.
It is dense reading, so I haven't read through it but have already looked up some things in it. I will I think be familiarizing myself with it more. About this subject about apostles and bodies of teaching. I hear you, and I will pocket that knowledge and will avoid repeating what I said about chains of individuals. There is value in generational information passed on.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You could get baptized by anyone you believe, but consider what Jesus said right before ascending before making a decision.
Acts 1:5,
For - John baptized with water, but - in a few days - - you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Water never made anyone righteous before God. Only baptism in holy spirit does that. The very essence of getting born again is baptism in holy spirit. You've already got it. Just need to learn what it's good for and what to do with it. I'd be glad to help you with that if you want.
Perhaps you should take notice of this....
The personage who became Jesus Christ on earth has many names and many roles. He is not defined by one name or only one role. Everything he did and taught, was carried out under instruction from his Father.
In John 5:19, in response to the Jews who were intent on killing him, Jesus said...
“Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.”
There are only two individuals named in the Bible as the Commander of the angelic forces....Jesus and Michael. Since we have no belief in a pagan trinity, there is no impediment to our belief that Michael became the man Jesus.
John 1:1 calls Jesus the “Logos” meaning that he was God’s spokesman who was “with God” “in the beginning”.
Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”.
Philippians 2: 5-11also brings out some interesting details concerning the name and roles of Jesus....
“5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Jesus never once claimed equality with his Father, but humbled himself by surrendering his heavenly glory in order to become a mortal human and offer his life for us. He did this in “obedience” to his Father and because he carried out his mission successfully, we can see here that God “exalted” his son to a “superior position” and gave him a name that is “above every other name”.
If Jesus was God how is that even possible? There is no position more superior than the one God already holds as “the Most High” (Psalm 83:18) and there is no name higher than Jehovah already has. Bending our knee to Jesus is in respect, appreciation and recognition of his sacrifice and the love shown by him in willingly offering his life, and in God’s love in sending him.
But who is to be given the glory for all that? Acknowledging “Jesus Christ as Lord” is “to the glory of God the Father.”
Revelation 3:12 also highlights that Jesus, after his return to heaven, still calls his Father “my God”, which makes one supposedly equal part of the trinity worship himself. He also mentions his “new name”.
God has only one name, but Jesus wears many ‘hats’ and has been given many roles and titles in the service of his Father.
He is not God but a humble “servant” of his God. (Acts 3:13, 26)
John 1:18 clearly states that “no man has ever seen God” and yet how many people saw Jesus? There is no way to prove a trinity from the scriptures because there are many more verses that disprove it, than infer it.
The Catholic Church itself admits that the trinity is not found in scripture. I believe that there is a good reason for that.....there is no trinity....it is blasphemy. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
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TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The problem is they haven't maintained the teaching of the original Apostles.
filthyrottendirty
Member
Ironic because this is probably closest to the truth
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee?
AlexanderG
Active Member
This web page gives a good representation of some of the major early sects. I believe the one I was referring to is Marcionism.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
There's a very big impediment. Jesus is the only begotten son, and Michael is an angel.
You are right to say that Jesus is not God, but then make the error of saying Jesus is
just another angel.
I guess you need to read scripture more carefully.....
What other angel was "begotten" by the Father as a human? What does the term "begotten" actually mean? Doesn't one who is "begotten" need a "begetter".....and doesn't the "begetter" need to be in existence first, in order to beget an offspring?
And what does "only begotten" (monogenes) mean in relation to Jesus?...since the pre-human Jesus was THE "only begotten son" before he came to be born as a human child on earth......it means that there are no others. "Only" means that the other "sons of God" were not direct creations of the Father, as Jesus was. This makes him unique.
Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (ESV)
He is the "image" of God...a reflection of him....that does not make him God.
All things were created "through" and "for" the son.....that makes him a separate entity in his own right. He is not God, but he is what he called himself..... "the son of God". (John 10:31-36)
He also identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)
"All things were created" by God through the agency of the son. The Father is the Creator, (Genesis 1:1) and his son worked under his direction through the whole process. He is the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. (See also Proverbs 8:30-31) There are not two creators who think and act independently. One part of God does not pray to himself, or have a will that is different to his other self....nor does one part of God know things that the other part doesn't. When you compare the scriptures to the trinity it couldn't get more ridiculous.
I'm afraid that the impediment is in your own faulty interpretation of the scriptures. Michael is not just an angel.....but the Arch Angel, the Commander of the angelic forces....he is one of a kind in heaven, just as in his human existence, he was one of a kind on earth.
The Bible tells the whole story if you just read what it says as a whole story.....not cherry picking verses that seem to back up what the churches teach. As one who was called out of that rabble, I can assure you that the Bible tells a vastly different story than the corrupted churches have done for centuries.
Study the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" and tell me who the weeds are...where they came from, and when they were planted.....then tell me how one identifies the "wheat"?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Christianity in its purest form (and that form which alone is acceptable to God)
is this - that we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. That He came
to show us what manner of living is acceptable to God, and to give His life to
redeem us from sin. We don't have to understand much, but one thing is important
and that is we live for Him - by loving His word, hearing His voice, emulating His
moral standard and following His standard of living. And His promise is important -
that where He is, there we shall be also. We don't know what heaven is like, and
for certainly it isn't about rainbows, waterfalls, butterflies and people sitting around
in idylic landscapes - that would be tiresome in short order. Heaven is to be with Him.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I thought you must be referring to the so called Marcion heresy. The misnomer here is that the New Testament never uses the name YHWH in it. Neither does Marcion. Generally he does not pit Jesus against the angry judge of the Tanakh. He pits the Angry judge of the Tanakh against the Loving God of Jesus. Jesus was still the son, and his will was his fathers.
What you say is correct. I just added something if I may so I am not saying you are wrong. I was thinking you were talking about the Marcion heresy, but it is possible you were referring to something I have no clue of. Thanks.
InChrist
Free4ever
According to the scriptures, the Son of God is not a created being, but God who became flesh as the scriptures teach (John 1:1-14; Matthew 1:23; 1 Timothy 3:16 ).
The Watchtower maintains that “firstborn” means first created, but that is a false interpretation.
“Firstborn” does not mean “first-created” as the Watchtower teaches because there is a Greek word for “first created” which is protoktistos. That is not the word used in Colossians 1:15.
Rather, Paul specifically used the word “prōtotokos” to distinguish the preeminence and authority of Christ. By using the word for “firstborn” instead of “first-created” Paul purposely rules out the idea that Jesus was a created being because “firstborn” does not mean “first-created.”
By describing Jesus as the “firstborn over all creation,” Paul is not saying Jesus was created, instead he is demonstrating the preeminence of Christ and that He is the Creator and absolute ruler over all creation.
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InChrist
Free4ever
No, a baptism done by the JW organization does not count as a Christian baptism because the Watchtower has a different Jesus and another gospel than that which is revealed in the Bible ( 2 Corinthians 11:4).
Jesus actually came to show us how to worship his God acceptably.....the Jews were not doing so because their religious leaders had introduced their adopted traditions and replaced the principles contained in God's word with their own own ideas. Jesus indicated that this was unacceptable. (Matthew 23) This kind of corruption would happen again, and for basically the same reasons.....men introducing doctrines that had no place in Christianity.....losing the plot. Christendom has done just that. Nothing they teach is in accord with what Jesus taught. Would you like to discuss how many ways there has been deviation?
Who told you that? (Acts 17:11) You have to understand everything in order to make the necessary commitment to serve God as a disciple of Christ. What is a disciple?
Since when have the churches of Christendom done that? How do you live for him when you are disobeying his commands and failing to live up to his teachings? How do you love his word when you don't know the half of what it teaches? How do you emulate his morals when half the people in your church are living an immoral life? When the soldiers who were sanctioned by the church, go off to war and kill innocent children? How is any of that following "His standard of living"? Please tell me....
Where do you get the idea that all good Christians will go to heaven? Where do you get the idea that God ever intended ANY humans to go to heaven? Was that ever in his first purpose for humankind? Read Genesis and tell me where heaven is even mentioned....? There was no "hell" either?
It was God who placed humans in paradise, so how was that supposed to be tiresome?
Israel was never promised heaven.....because God's Kingdom was going to rule the earth.
Revelation 21:2-4 shows that his purpose never altered....
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
That 'idyllic' life that God gave our first parents, was the one we were meant to live forever.....no heaven or hell....just paradise. Not boring in the least. God will be "with" his people in the same way that he was "with" Israel in the Promised Land......represented by faithful human servants. All the things that make life difficult in this world will be gone in the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)
The majority of humans will never know what heaven is like because few will ever get there. They are chosen by God for the role of "kings and priests", (Revelation 20:6) assisting their King Jesus Christ in bringing humankind back to paradise. It was where God intended for them to live "forever"......so can God ever be a failure?....outsmarted by the devil? (Isaiah 55:11) No way.....
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Read the book of Hebrews or Paul's Romans. They are quite deep. Now read John's epistles.
John didn't know the law like Paul or the author of Hebrews did. John's work is simple, almost
childlike in its lovely qualities. His Gospel is my favorite - no history like Luke, just half a dozen
touching stories.
Yet John was Jesus' favorite. He wasn't the favorite because he understood, but because he
loved. Same with Mary and Martha - or the thief on the cross. Jesus wasnt interested in people
who 'understood' he wanted people who loved and who had a childlike simplicity to their faith.
Clever people, for instance, who want to 'prove the bible' with logic, philosophy, history etc just
don't get it.
The formula is quite simple, and this simplicity eludes or offends people - you come to Christ
through hearing the Gospel, You believe in it, it touches your heart, you accept Christ into your
life. That's it. That's all it is.
And what a wonderful promise, 'That where I am there you will be also." We don't know what form
we will take, but as John put it "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see
him as he is."
Take care.
John ch 1 in no way presents Jesus as God Almighty.....
The Greek presents a different story.
" In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.
The Word (Logos) was with "ho theos" (THE God) but he was not "ho theos". Without the definite article in the second mention of "theos", it makes the Logos a "god", (mighty one) but not THE God.
John 1:14...
" And kai the ho Word logos became ginomai flesh sarx and kai dwelt skēnoō among en us hēmeis, and kai we gazed theaomai on · ho his autos glory doxa, glory doxa as hōs of the only monogenēs Son from para the Father patēr, full plērēs of grace charis and kai truth alētheia."
It was the "Logos" who became flesh...not ho theos......
John 1:18....The Mounce Interlinear has taken license with this verse, no doubt influenced by the trinity....
" No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."
As you can see, pro-trinitarian words have been inserted that were not there in the Greek....
"No one has ever seen God".....if this was talking about Jesus then it makes no sense.....thousands saw Jesus.
It clearly says "monogenes theos" which correctly translated means "only begotten god". There is no "Son" who was "himself God" even mentioned there.....I believe that you've been conned into accepting the greatest blasphemy in the history of Christianity....a product of the "weeds".
"Firstborn" mean exactly what it infers.....if you have a firstborn son....he is your first child.....he will always be your firstborn even if you have many sons after him. Were there more "sons of God"? YES! probably millions of them because God has a whole family of spirit "sons" in heaven....all are his direct creations, through the agency of his firstborn. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:3) Creation came "through" the son, from the Father.
That sounds like spin to me.....where is this stated?
According to Strongs, "prōtotokos" means ....
- "the firstborn
- of man or beast
- of Christ, the first born of all creation"
- of man or beast
Where does it say "over all creation"?
In the Mounce Interlinear it says....
"To the ho angel angelos of the ho church ekklēsia in en Laodicea Laodikeia write graphō: The ho Amen amēn, the ho faithful pistos and kai true alēthinos Witness martys, · ho the ho Beginning archē of ho God’ s theos creation ktisis, · ho has legō this hode to say legō:" (Revelation 3:14)
Jesus is called "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation"....are you going to try and read the trinity into every scripture that did not originally contain it? Who told you that Jesus was God...or that he even needed to be?
Before the Catholic church formulated this doctrine and introduced it through many controversies, the trinity did not exist......it was not taught by Christ or any of his apostles because no one believed in such a thing back in the first century....it was a fourth century adoption.....a time when the "weeds" had all but choked out the "wheat".
Were the apostles in any doubt about who Jesus was?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
" For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." (NASB)
Was Jesus under any illusions as to who his Father was?
John 17:3...
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
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Why do you think there are four gospel accounts? Are we to rely on just one? All are contained in the Bible canon and the 12 apostles were specially selected from among the less educated Jews for the simple reason that the schools where the Pharisees taught, were not teaching God's word....they were relying man made traditions and substituting them for God's word.
Matthew 15:8-10...Jesus said....
"‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Matthew 21:43....
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit."
Not being indoctrinated by the Pharisees' teachings, Jesus would find it easier to teach these humble fishermen the truth about what to expect the Messiah to be. The Pharisees had a very distorted view of what he was supposed to accomplish.
We have to be careful that what we accept as truth, really is. The Jews in the first century listened to their religious leaders, who also claimed to teach God's truth, but it was far from it....and it cost them their place in the Kingdom. If Jesus warned that the devil would sow "weeds" of false Christianity, then how would we know how to tell the difference unless we were educated by Jesus himself? He told us to look at their "fruitage" or what kind of people these teachers produced. Ask yourself..."if all the people in the world were converted to my religion, would there be peace and harmony in the world? Or would there still be wars, crime and violence?" We have to be living now, like we will be living in the new world.
Simplicity of faith shouldn't make it blind though.
Those who teach are under greater responsibility....but all of Christ's disciples had to learn the truth as he taught it. If it wasn't important to know and follow Jesus' teachings, he would not have so roundly condemned the Pharisees. It wasn't knowledge per se that Jesus criticized, it was how that knowledge was used to justify wrong conduct...twisting the scriptures to teach lies. (John 8:44)
Yes...learning the gospel....so what is the "gospel" (or good news) concerning the Kingdom?
We as Christ's disciples are to offer this good news to others.....in fact it was to be preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" of the present system would come. (Matthew 24:14) If we have no idea what Jesus taught, or what the kingdom is, or how it "comes", then how are we to explain it to those who ask us what we believe as Christians?
If we pray the Lord's Prayer without understanding what we are praying for.....of what use is it?
Unfortunately Christendom teaches that all good Christians go to heaven.....but that was never in God's purpose as I have mentioned. God created us humans to live here on the earth in paradise conditions...with no ageing, sickness or death to spoil our lives here. There was to be no crime or violence either because there would have been no knowledge of evil.
In the judgment to come, Jesus (as God's appointed judge) will not allow violent or evil people to gain entry into the Kingdom....he won't allow the spiritually unclean or disobedient to gain entry either. (Matthew 7:21-23)
All must know the will of God and be found doing it.
In Revelation 21:1-4 Jesus is seen bringing the rulership of God's Kingdom to earthly subjects. Most of us will never see heaven because God already has a very large family there. But he has chosen some from the earth to take up positions in the kingdom as "kings and priests" (Revelation 20:6)....he did so because only humans fully understand the sinful human condition, and even its King has lived on earth among sinners, offering them salvation. (Hebrews 4:15)
Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties.....there are no sinners in heaven...so the earth will be where we spend eternity if we qualify.
Whatever God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)
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PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Just this for now... re 'less educated'
reminds me of Jesus consorting with the 'poor'
both are wrong -----
Luke was one of the greatest historians of the classic age.
Matthew was a highly educated, wealthy man
Paul was a very educated and well to do man
Simeon and Anna were from the priesthood, and educated.
John and James came from a business family - most like educated and well off
Mary and Martha were fairly well off (that alabaster box was worth about $75k)
I suppose all the ministry was literate and probably multi-lingual.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
There shouldn't be any doctrines about the nature of eternity because
none is provided. John did not know what form we will take in eternity
when the flesh is gone, but it DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is who
we are with.
I see these paintings of heaven that clearly are just man's imagination
I don't read anything in scripture that eternity is anything like this.
Is there every any rain here? What happens after the third day of looking
at this landscape? Do the children get to grow up? And woudn't you then
miss their childhood? What happens when that mountain gets worn down?
What happens if you are in eternity but your partner isn't?
I could think of a million such silly but important questions. No-where do
you see people here serving God, just living a life of idle pleasure.