Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

[Ingledsva]

Do you read biblical Greek? Do you realize the exegetical gymnastics that have to be employed in order to get at "what the bible itself ACTUALLY says??"

I always look them up in their original languages.

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[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, 1. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, but the spirit of God dwelt in him. Since Jesus did not sin, there was nothing to stand in the way of God's word being expressed perfectly. Through the words and actions of Jesus we see the light of God. When I look upon Jesus I see nothing of the flesh of man, only the glory of God.
2. When Jesus Christ is resurrected even his flesh is transformed. He becomes a spiritual being - 3. able to sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven (a spiritual realm). Does this make the resurrected Christ one with the Father? Yes.

Do the scriptures say that the Word of God is indistinguishable from Jesus Christ? Yes.4. John 1:1 says exactly that. So too does 5. 1 John 1-3. And Revelation 19:13.

1. We have already discussed everything you mention and proved such to be false, or misunderstandings, or mistranslations.

As the awaited MESSIAH - which is all he claimed to be - he would be just a little lower - and worthy of honor.

2. All you have is a story written long after the death by a person whom was not there. It also tells us he went to SHEOL for three days before rising. This would be because as the Messiah (NOT A GOD) he must rise first, to bring about the END and Final Judgment of ALL in SHEOL.

3. The awaited Jewish MESSIAH (a HUMAN from the line of David) sits beside YHVH in Final Judgment of those in SHEOL. In other words there is no more Sheol when Messiah does that Final Judgment.

4. John 1 does not say Jesus is the Logos! It says Jesus is the illumination - and the Logos was enfleshed in him. AGAIN - He is NOT the Logos.

5. 1 John 3 AGAIN tells us they are separate!

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Revelation is just later crap - it says it is a dream - and I think he was on drugs. Beyond that - we have also shown that you folks are wrong in most of your ideas about Revelation as well.

LATER people messed up the - awaited Jewish Messiah story - which Jesus claimed to be - and twisted it into a God , and trinity story - which is absolute BULL to Jews - of which Jesus was one!

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[Popcorn]

Arguing the trinity doctrine is like trying to argue the pronunciation of "tomato", but nevertheless... Reading all these comments to this point, and knowing I'm not the world's foremost expert, yet to know enough. Somebody said Jesus told him personally, so there's no disputing that. That's the nature of God, though, like to be in tune with the Spirit. Now, as far as discussing all the fine print, all the subtle nuances and technicalities of the Bible to prove or disprove this thing here, maybe something to say about Exodus 7, which is putting it to the way people have chosen to belief in their customs and traditions. We know that Moses, himself, is not God, but what does Pharaoh know of any such thing as a god or gods? It is a similar situation with Christianity, although Jesus was of the order of Melchisedec according to the book of Hebrews, but his reason for being is in some ways to lead people away from sin and temptation the same way Moses lead people away from Pharaoh. So, no, I don't believe in the trinity doctrine because I see that as backwards, but that is coming from a prior understanding of God as ineffable, not any kind of person or object. However, for people who are coming from an understanding of God as any kind of thing, then Jesus as he appears right now in the Spirit is the image of the invisible God, so I think that is where the trinity doctrine comes from. That has a lot to do with colonization and assimilation, which is imperialism, the politics of theocracy, and about a million other things that I could discuss that would seriously offend the Catholics and other European institutional religions, eh-hm, as well as anyone who seems to think that Christianity is first and foremost a hatred of The Jooz for killing their Messiah, but that is a discussion for another time.

 

[Muffled]

One God; two persons. Monotheism.

I believe one God means one person in pure spiritual form (the Father, in Jesus (the Son) and in us (The Paraclete).

I believe two persons means two gods.

 

[Muffled]

The Son and the Father are one Being -- according to the Trinity doctrine. Therefore, there is only one Being in heaven together.

I do not believe this is so. The father is a being without a body and Jesus is a being with a body. God as the Father and in Jesus is one being.

 

[Muffled]

Any plurality in translation is inconsequential to the actual Deity reference.


Care to explain? This is a completely foreign idea to me. To my understanding, they are used vice-versa, it is referring to the same Deity.

It is like the difference between saying "god" or Jehovah. Our English word for god probably comes from Norse legend which means those humans that had godlike powers. That is a much different concept from that of the Creator of the Universe.

 

[sojourner]

That first sentence would be admitting that the birth narrative is COMPLETELY FALSE.

No, it would be admitting that the story is mythic.

Also Augustus was NOT considered a GOD!

Yeah. He was.

We have already covered John 1, - which does not actually say Jesus is the Logos! It says he is the illumination= a Teacher. It says the Logos becomes enfleshed in him - NOT that he is the Logos. Read it in the Greek. He claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - NOT A GOD - or part of a trinity!

It can be translated that way -- but that's not the meaning that most scholars make of it.

What would later misconceptions have to do with this?

Nothing. Why did you bring them up? Paul began his ministry about 18 months following the crucifixion, so it's not "later misconception." It is the conception of the time, which was why a lot of Jews refused to believe in resurrection -- it placed a concept of divinity upon the resurrected, which nullifies their monotheism.

I believe one God means one person in pure spiritual form (the Father, in Jesus (the Son) and in us (The Paraclete).

I believe two persons means two gods.

Well, but that's not what the doctrine of the Trinity states -- which is what this particular thread is about.

 

[sojourner]

I do not believe this is so. The father is a being without a body and Jesus is a being with a body. God as the Father and in Jesus is one being.

Again, this is about the doctrine.

 

[Redemptionsong]

1. We have already discussed everything you mention and proved such to be false, or misunderstandings, or mistranslations.

As the awaited MESSIAH - which is all he claimed to be - he would be just a little lower - and worthy of honor.

2. All you have is a story written long after the death by a person whom was not there. It also tells us he went to SHEOL for three days before rising. This would be because as the Messiah (NOT A GOD) he must rise first, to bring about the END and Final Judgment of ALL in SHEOL.

3. The awaited Jewish MESSIAH (a HUMAN from the line of David) sits beside YHVH in Final Judgment of those in SHEOL. In other words there is no more Sheol when Messiah does that Final Judgment.

4. John 1 does not say Jesus is the Logos! It says Jesus is the illumination - and the Logos was enfleshed in him. AGAIN - He is NOT the Logos.

5. 1 John 3 AGAIN tells us they are separate!

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Revelation is just later crap - it says it is a dream - and I think he was on drugs. Beyond that - we have also shown that you folks are wrong in most of your ideas about Revelation as well.

LATER people messed up the - awaited Jewish Messiah story - which Jesus claimed to be - and twisted it into a God , and trinity story - which is absolute BULL to Jews - of which Jesus was one!

Ingledsva, you seem to accept that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. This makes him a man. Yet you cannot explain why the angels worship him.

You say that Jesus Christ was only a man, yet he sits at the right hand of God in final judgement. How can a man sit with God in heaven?

You say that Revelation is CRAP. But the most likely author is John the evangelist, the same John that wrote the Gospel and the letters! You're happy to quote from the latter but not the book of Revelation.

You are quoting from 1 John 1:1-3 claiming it shows division, when in fact it talks of fellowship. This fellowship is FELLOWSHIP IN THE SPIRIT, the ONE SPIRIT OF GOD.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, you seem to accept that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. This makes him a man. Yet you cannot explain why the angels worship him.

You say that Jesus Christ was only a man, yet he sits at the right hand of God in final judgement. How can a man sit with God in heaven?

You say that Revelation is CRAP. But the most likely author is John the evangelist, the same John that wrote the Gospel and the letters! You're happy to quote from the latter but not the book of Revelation.

You are quoting from 1 John 3 claiming it shows division, when in fact it talks of fellowship. This fellowship is FELLOWSHIP IN THE SPIRIT, the ONE SPIRIT OF GOD.

AS already explained OVER AND OVER - Jesus can be worshiped/bowed to by angels and men, because he is the "ONE and ONLY," awaited JEWISH MESSIAH - sent from GOD. A HUMAN from the line of King David, - whom brings about the end of creation, and sits on a throne beside God in FINAL JUDGMENT of those in SHEOL.

According to the texts of course.

Later people wrote the NT. There are plenty of legit sites for you to look these dates up.

Also that was meant to be 1 John 1-3, the verse you quoted. That text SHOWS that Jesus and God are two separate beings.

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[Desert Snake]

AS already explained OVER AND OVER - Jesus can be worshiped/bowed to by angels and men, because he is the "ONE and ONLY," awaited JEWISH MESSIAH - sent from GOD. A HUMAN from the line of King David, - whom brings about the end of creation, and sits on a throne beside God in FINAL JUDGMENT of those in SHEOL.

According to the texts of course.

Later people wrote the NT. There are plenty of legit sites for you to look these dates up.

Also that was meant to be 1 John 1-3, the verse you quoted. That text SHOWS that Jesus and God are two separate beings.

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So he is the jewish messiah, that jews don't accept?

 

[Ingledsva]

So he is the jewish messiah, that jews don't accept?

According to him.

He said he was the one spoken of by Moses.

Jews say he didn't fulfill prophecy. Christians claim the rest is still coming with his return.

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[Redemptionsong]

AS already explained OVER AND OVER - Jesus can be worshiped/bowed to by angels and men, because he is the "ONE and ONLY," awaited JEWISH MESSIAH - sent from GOD. A HUMAN from the line of King David, - whom brings about the end of creation, and sits on a throne beside God in FINAL JUDGMENT of those in SHEOL.

Ingledsva, I think you're in a muddle.

If Jesus is only human, how can he be sent FROM God?

If Jesus is only human why would a higher order of spiritual beings (angels) bow down to him?

How can a man of flesh and blood sit beside the SPIRIT OF GOD?

How can a a man of flesh and blood judge the souls of the dead?

How can a man of flesh and blood bring about the end of creation?

It just doesn't make any sense. What do you mean by 'ONE AND ONLY'? How is he different from other humans?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, I think you're in a muddle.

If Jesus is only human, how can he be sent FROM God?

If Jesus is only human why would a higher order of spiritual beings (angels) bow down to him?

How can a man of flesh and blood sit beside the SPIRIT OF GOD?

How can a a man of flesh and blood judge the souls of the dead?

How can a man of flesh and blood bring about the end of creation?

It just doesn't make any sense. What do you mean by 'ONE AND ONLY'? How is he different from other humans?

How can he be human and sent from God? EASY.

Do you think the prophesized Jewish Messiah becomes such without God behind him?

The awaited Messiah is a HUMAN from the line of David, from God, to bring about the prophecy.

The Messiah is NOT a God, or part of any trinity, - which also is not even in the Bible.

How can he sit beside God, or Judge those in Sheol, - at the will of God!

The prophecies say this HUMAN Messiah will do these things.

How is he different? There is only ONE prophesied HUMAN Jewish Messiah - and according to the text, he brings about the END, and final Judgment, - so obviously no such others.

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[Redemptionsong]

The awaited Messiah is a HUMAN from the line of David, from God, to bring about the prophecy.

Ingledsva, you're glossing over the issue, knowing that there's more.

The Messiah is an 'anointed one'. What was Jesus anointed with?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was without SIN?

Do you believe he forgave sins, healed sickness, multiplied food, walked on water, turned water into wine, stilled a storm, cast out demons, raised the dead?

Did he know the thoughts of men, the hidden past, events of the future?

Is he able to save from sin, and to judge mankind?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, you're glossing over the issue, knowing that there's more.

The Messiah is an 'anointed one'. What was Jesus anointed with?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was without SIN?

Do you believe he forgave sins, healed sickness, multiplied food, walked on water, turned water into wine, stilled a storm, cast out demons, raised the dead?

Did he know the thoughts of men, the hidden past, events of the future?

Is he able to save from sin, and to judge mankind?

You appear to be missing key points that I have made.

Messiah means Anointed.

Jesus claims to be that awaited Human Jewish Messiah. - from the line of King David.

He does NOT claim to be a God, or part of a trinity.

He tells us we ALL can do the so-called miracles that he did. No Godhood needed.

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[Redemptionsong]

You appear to be missing key points that I have made.

I'm not missing the points you have made. You're avoiding the issue, Ingledsva!

Acts 10:38: 'How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.'

Yes, Jesus was anointed. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. He was human and in him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Why did Jesus NOT DO miracles before he was anointed? Because he did not have the anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT. What is the Holy Spirit? It is God.

Can you and I do miracles? Yes, but NOT without walking by the Spirit that the risen Christ and his Father sends.

Trinity, yes. The spirit given by the Father to Jesus, is the same Spirit that the Son sends to those who have faith.

This discussion is not about Jesus being human and living as flesh and blood for thirty plus years. Very few doubt that. The question concerns his spiritual credentials. The question being asked is, IS the Spirit in Jesus that of God? The answer must be, YES. Is this HOLY SPIRIT the same spirit that the risen Christ sends, and that unites the Church? The answer must be YES. One and the same Spirit, one and the same God.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not missing the points you have made. You're avoiding the issue, Ingledsva!

Acts 10:38: 'How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.'

Yes, Jesus was anointed. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. He was human and in him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Why did Jesus NOT DO miracles before he was anointed? Because he did not have the anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT. What is the Holy Spirit? It is God.

Can you and I do miracles? Yes, but NOT without walking by the Spirit that the risen Christ and his Father sends.

Trinity, yes. The spirit given by the Father to Jesus, is the same Spirit that the Son sends to those who have faith.

This discussion is not about Jesus being human and living as flesh and blood for thirty plus years. Very few doubt that. The question concerns his spiritual credentials. The question being asked is, IS the Spirit in Jesus that of God? The answer must be, YES. Is this HOLY SPIRIT the same spirit that the risen Christ sends, and that unites the Church? The answer must be YES. One and the same Spirit, one and the same God.

It is you avoiding -

Don't you find it rather weird that your Jesus/God has to be accepted by himself/YHVH/God, and be anointed by himself/spirit/God? And later pray to himself, - and ask himself/God to take away the Earth-quest which supposedly - according to you - since he is God - he sent himself on in the first place?

This is all bull thought up by later Christians.

There is no trinity in the Bible, and Jesus does not say he is part of one, nor that he is a God.

Obviously the "Spirit of God" being in someone - does NOT in any way - make them a God!

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God was with him, - is not, - for he was God!

 

[Desert Snake]

It is you avoiding -

Don't you find it rather weird that your Jesus/God has to be accepted by himself/YHVH/God, and be anointed by himself/spirit/God? And later pray to himself, - and ask himself/God to take away the Earth-quest which supposedly - according to you - since he is God - he sent himself on in the first place?

This is all bull thought up by later Christians.

There is no trinity in the Bible, and Jesus does not say he is part of one, nor that he is a God.

Obviously the "Spirit of God" being in someone - does NOT in any way - make them a God!

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God was with him, - is not, - for he was God!

You have things backwards. Jesus is JHVH, in man form. Later, some churchites couldn't deal with this, or didn't understand it ....etc., and then created the ''man'' character aspect that wasn't a Deity. I'm sorry, but the churches have misinformed you, because they were adhering to Xianity, not inventing it, and some of them goofed a bit on specifics.

 

[Ingledsva]

You have things backwards. Jesus is JHVH, in man form. Later, some churchites couldn't deal with this, or didn't understand it ....etc., and then created the ''man'' character aspect that wasn't a Deity. I'm sorry, but the churches have misinformed you, because they were adhering to Xianity, not inventing it, and some of them goofed a bit on specifics.

Pure baloney.

The Jewish Messiah was from the Jews - ONE GOD PEOPLE - thus the Messiah is a HUMAN from the line of David - to call the Messiah a God would be total sacrilege to these ONE God people. Ask them.

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